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Mace Tyrell: What was the deal with that lousy siege at Storm's End?


StarkofWinterfell

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I've done some searching for anything I could find on the Siege of Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion and I have come to the conclusion that Mace Tyrell is either inept or he was never fully committed to the loyalist cause. 

We know that he took most of the Reach's forces with him to besiege Storm's End and that it took the "better part of a year." If we use the current books for an example of what most of the Reach's forces would be, I'd guestimate he had around 80,000 men with him at Storm's End. The Reach, we know, can raise upwards of 100,000. Stannis only has a small garrison, little more than a token force but exact numbers aren't known. Considering the difference in numbers, why did the siege take so long. Was there even any fighting? I've found no record of any assaults on Storm's End or any deaths attributed to battle.

We can assume then that Mace Tyrell went and parked his army in front of Storm's End and did NOTHING for almost a year. And then when Ned shows up, Mace and his 80,000 men surrender. Because of this incompetence on the part of Mace Tyrell, the Reach army could never join up with the rest of the loyalist forces and fight.

Someone feel free to chime in here. Was Mace just trying to starve the garrison or did he mean to take the castle because the siege could've been over in a fortnight if he wanted. Or possibly was he weighing his options and not supporting either cause?

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According to Arianne the walls of Storm's End are too high for any siege tower, and the walls are impenetrable to siege weapons, so that leaves either trying to fight through the main gate, using ladders/grapling hooks, or trying to get through that cave entrance in the back. That's fairly simple to defend so long as the defenders are determined.

That said, Davos/Stannis believed they could take the castle, just that it would potentially cost thousands of lives. Given Mace probably wasn't as committed to Aerys as he is to the current regime, I doubt he wanted to risk that. Silly of him to park so many men there, though.

As to fighting, Donal Noye lost his arm during the siege, so there was probably a little bit of it.

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He was trying to starve the garrison. Being no Napoleon he brought almost his whole army, where probably a tenth of that number could have done the same. There is some mentioning of some fighting, but nothing specific. Maybe the besieged forces tried to break out at one point or tried to harass the besieging forces. Agree that the Tyrell army could have been of more use somewhere else during the war.

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I think the OP has it right that Mace was incompetent and given his grasping nature may have wanted to win a victory that no one could contest was Mace's. At Ashford for example Mace may like to take credit, but everyone knew it was Tarly who won that fight. Same thing with Mace going north to join Prince Rhaegar, JonCon or whoever was put in command. Most would consider that person to have been the victor if the loyalists won and Mace would probably win little glory for himself. A Storm's End, especially if Tarly is given the backseat, the glory will belong to Mace and Mace alone.

But beyond that there are considerations to think of in this issue. For the first thing, 80 000 men eats ALOT and moves slowly. if the Reach juggernaut would travel north into the Riverlands there could well be logistical issues that would cause more losses to starvation and desertion before battle is joined. To me at least it makes sense to divide the army strategically into two groups that can sustain themselves rather than one massive blob that will suffer constant attrition even without engaging the enemy. And a commander concerned with honor, such as Lord Connington, may also object to the way which an army like that would make a desert everywhere it went. It makes some sense to me that the Reach army would keep back so that it could function as a reserve pool for the royal army in the north in case things went sour.

Secondly there's the fact that Storm's End is a big prize in the PR department. We see how Robb must return to reclaim the North from the Ironmen and how Tywin, when he thinks there's a window for it, marches West when his own lands are under attack. Home is important. If Mace could take Storm's End the royalists would be able to tell Westeros; "Look at Robert! He can't defend his own home and he leaves his brothers to rot while he runs away! You want that kind of man as your king? He'll leave you to dry ot save himself, just like he left his own brothers!" and to that the loyalists would have Robert's brothers as hostages to be used in an exchange or as leverage on the rebel leadership if things went south for the loyalists.

In all I think that Storm's End would have been a nice catch for the loyalists.

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For one thing, the numbers of the war of the kings are so high because they came at the end of a ten year long summer, which means that the forces available to Mace would not have been anywhere near as high. We also see that they do not mobilise fully unless there is an absolute neccessity and the difficulty of maintaining large numbers of troops in the field indefinitely. He also had to hqve troops to send with Rhaegar afterwards. There is also the factor of time. He probably was under pressure to deal with Robert as quickly as possible. After he sent him running, he probably had the option of throwing everything he had against Storm's End and risk ruinus losses or starve them out. As Robert was on the run there wouldn't be much reason to risk the former. After the trident there wasn't much reason to go on fighting.

All in all, I expect that Mace had initially maybe 20 to 30 k when he invested Storm's End and maybe 10k by the end of the siege. I don't see that he made any elsewhere. For his part, he was solid. The rebellion was decided elsewhere.

 

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There is no textual evidence that Mace brought a huge army to Storm's End. He would have had a pretty big army capable of crushing the Stormlords and preventing them from actually coming to Stannis' aid, but there is no reason to assume he came with 80,000 men.

Robert didn't have his full strength at Ashford because he had no time to gather it. He went from Storm's End to Summerhall, won his three battles there, and then pressed on to the Reach. Perhaps he could summon some additional levies to Summerhall but most likely not all that many. You have to keep in mind that the man was defeated by Mace Tyrell's vanguard.

If we assume the Stormlords had still men in their lands then Mace needed a big army to prevent them from attacking his siege forces.

More importantly, we have to assume the Robert was pursued into the Riverlands by loyalist troops, presumably by Reach men, or else he wouldn't have been down to the last man (himself) by the time he was hiding in Stoney Sept. He obviously no longer had an army at that point.

As of yet we have no clue how that came about. And it is quite a distance from Ashford to Stoney Sept.

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42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert didn't have his full strength at Ashford because he had no time to gather it. He went from Storm's End to Summerhall, won his three battles there, and then pressed on to the Reach. Perhaps he could summon some additional levies to Summerhall but most likely not all that many. You have to keep in mind that the man was defeated by Mace Tyrell's vanguard.

Nevermind Jon Connington, Hand of the King and important Stormlord. Not the only Stormlord to fight against Robert. Robert had the men of Storms End itself and the three Houses he defeated at Summerhall, the rest supported the loyalists.

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24 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Reach sent men to the Crown, we know that there was some part of Rhaegar's 40k.

Aerys and Rhaegar would have been aware of how many men the Reach had, if they needed more bodies they should have demanded them. Instead Rhaegar thought he could beat Robert's 35k with what he had.

Rhaegar was a dumbass. 

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Mace may be an oaf to most readers,mostly on the word of his mother, and he's certainly shown to be crass, vain and grasping, but he has not made any catastrophic blunbers, which cannot be said for many characters that are considered smarter than him. Let's not forget he is the indisputable winner of the war of the five kings and as for getting involved in the first place, expanding their power and influence is the raison d'etre of any house.

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26 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Nevermind Jon Connington, Hand of the King and important Stormlord. Not the only Stormlord to fight against Robert. Robert had the men of Storms End itself and the three Houses he defeated at Summerhall, the rest supported the loyalists.

There is no evidence for your last point there. In fact, Robert only punished House Connington for sticking to the Targaryens, so one has to assume the guys who got their lands remained loyal to Robert. The idea that the majority of the Stormlords stayed true to Aerys makes little sense-

And who knows? Perhaps Robert had the time and opportunity to call some of his vassals from the Stormlands to the Trident later on during the war. The Tyrells only besieged Storm's End, after all.

In general I'm inclined to believe that Mace didn't have the time to muster the bulk of his strength, either. If Robert reacted swiftly after Summerhall there is little chance that Mace could have summoned all his strength in the meantime.

And I also doubt that Mace specifically sent men to Rhaegar and Aerys. It is much more likely that the Targaryens contacted known Targaryen loyalists in the Reach individually and they then sent contingents of men to the Crownlands, or that such loyalists did so on their own initiative.

Not to mention that Gerold Hightower and later Prince Rhaegar himself apparently crossed the entire Reach on their ways to and from the tower of joy. Rhaegar spending a night in this or that castle easily could have resulted in him leading an army of Reach men back home to KL.

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Mace had no idea that a young green boy would defy the power of the reach and hold Storm's End for a year dining on rats and boot leather. If he took Storm's End he would have been rewarded extremely well by the Targaryens and it would have meant the end for Robert's Rebellion then. Just like Tywin he was unsure what way things were going and played it safe. 

 

If you look at sieges in history they last for months, even years. The idea was to starve your enemy out rather than risk hundreds of troops for a foot of wall. We get the wrong impression of war with fantasy when most battles are fought to the last man and sieges are over in 24 hours.

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, aFeastForDragons said:

Mace had no idea that a young green boy would defy the power of the reach and hold Storm's End for a year dining on rats and boot leather. If he took Storm's End he would have been rewarded extremely well by the Targaryens and it would have meant the end for Robert's Rebellion then. Just like Tywin he was unsure what way things were going and played it safe. 

That makes little sense. The Rebellion wasn't dependent on Storm's End remaining free. Eddard Stark, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and possibly even Hoster Tully would have continued the fight regardless whether Stannis and Renly were free, hostages, or burned alive. Perhaps Robert wouldn't have remained the figurehead of the movement but so what? Jon and Ned could have stepped in easily enough.

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I see no reason to think Mace cared about the war's outcome. Aerys wasn't threatening him, none of the Rebels had a grudge against the Tyrrells, and the Tyrrells had no strong ties to the current Targaryens.

From the perspective of someone who doesn't care about who wins, the seige of Storm's end was a brilliant strategy. Had Mace won a bunch of battles or stormed several smaller castles but lost the war,  Robert would have had the relatives of the deceased calling for vengeance. If he had won the seige and Robert still won, so long as he treated Stannis honorably, they would have been fine. If the Targaryens killed Robert up north, then Mace would have been the one to officially end the war, either by watching Stannis starve or by by inviting him to come to terms. While he sat there with his army, Mace was very safe, but even if something crazy did happen and he lost a battle while the war was on, he could tell Aerys he tried, or hope the rebels would treat him fairly.

Also, while he was there with his Bannermen, life was great. He was feasting every day, with the dishes sweetened by the knowledge that their display was weakening the defenders morale. And while his banners were there, they weren't engaging in any treachery.

Imo the only better option would have been to invade Dorne and start killing off highborn men... totally for Robert. Because, you know, we have it right here in writing that the Tyrrells were supposed to have right of first refusal to marry Dornish princesses and Rhaegar robbed us too! So, now that he and Doran and Oberon are dead, you've got to let us take Arianne as ward and Betrothe her to a good Tyrrell boy. Please ignore how fresh and dark the ink still looks - it's just a sign of how much this agreement meant to us, that we had it drawn up in super-expensive long lasting inks you've never heard of. 

 

But, of course, invading Dorne would have gone horribly had the Targaryens won. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes little sense. The Rebellion wasn't dependent on Storm's End remaining free. Eddard Stark, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and possibly even Hoster Tully would have continued the fight regardless whether Stannis and Renly were free, hostages, or burned alive. Perhaps Robert wouldn't have remained the figurehead of the movement but so what? Jon and Ned could have stepped in easily enough.

 

Incorrect. The rebellion was massively dependent on Storm's End. If Mace won he would have turned his army towards Robert but it was Stannis's persistence on holding Storm's End that kept Mace and his army tied up in the region unable to come to Raegar, Jon's or even Aerys's aid . 

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Just now, aFeastForDragons said:

Incorrect. The rebellion was massively dependent on Storm's End. If Mace won he would have turned his army towards Robert but it was Stannis's persistence on holding Storm's End that kept Mace and his army tied up in the region unable to come to Raegar, Jon's or even Aerys's aid . 

You don't know whether Mace would have done such a thing. If the Tyrells were at best lukewarm Targaryen loyalists (as I'd see them thanks to the fact that Aegon V's children humiliated both Olenna Redwyne and Luthor Tyrell) they might have done nothing to help Aerys or Rhaegar after they had taken Storm's End. Surely Aerys could have commanded Mace to march up to defend KL once he learned about Rhaegar and the Trident but if he did so Mace didn't help him at all.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no textual evidence that Mace brought a huge army to Storm's End. He would have had a pretty big army capable of crushing the Stormlords and preventing them from actually coming to Stannis' aid, but there is no reason to assume he came with 80,000 men.

Robert didn't have his full strength at Ashford because he had no time to gather it. He went from Storm's End to Summerhall, won his three battles there, and then pressed on to the Reach. Perhaps he could summon some additional levies to Summerhall but most likely not all that many. You have to keep in mind that the man was defeated by Mace Tyrell's vanguard.

If we assume the Stormlords had still men in their lands then Mace needed a big army to prevent them from attacking his siege forces.

More importantly, we have to assume the Robert was pursued into the Riverlands by loyalist troops, presumably by Reach men, or else he wouldn't have been down to the last man (himself) by the time he was hiding in Stoney Sept. He obviously no longer had an army at that point.

As of yet we have no clue how that came about. And it is quite a distance from Ashford to Stoney Sept.

80,000 may be a little high. All I've read is that he brought the majority of the Reach's forces with him and sent a sizable host to Rhaegar. Considering the population of the Reach, his army may have still been 50,000-60,000. I agree he probably needed a good sized army to prevent any Stormlanders from attacking.

 

6 hours ago, Northern_Star said:

there is 2 reason why he would've take that many people to the siege

1.: he wanted to intimidate the besieged (unlikely)

2: he wanted to spare his men to be slaughtered in other battles.

I can also see point 2, and what others have echoed here. The conclusion I can draw is that Mace is either A) a buffoon or B)an extremely calculating and conniving man who, like Tywin, was waiting to see where the dust settled but also didn't want to provoke the crown.

He keeps the majority of his forces out of the fighting and if an opportunity arises, he'd be strongest player in the game. It didn't turn out the way he liked though in the end or could I be giving him too much credit?

2 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

Incorrect. The rebellion was massively dependent on Storm's End. If Mace won he would have turned his army towards Robert but it was Stannis's persistence on holding Storm's End that kept Mace and his army tied up in the region unable to come to Raegar, Jon's or even Aerys's aid . 

But was this intended or no? Were Mace's forces really tied up? It is my opinion that if really wanted to take Storm's End, he could've.

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Yeah, the OP's right.

Any explanation regarding why Mace didn't take Storm's End comes down to two base answers:

He couldn't or he wouldn't.

And Mace has no reason not to take Storm's End. His numbers, resources, equipment and morale vastly outstrip Stannis' meager garrison to where he could storm the keep and lose thousands of men and that would still be a drop in the bucket compared to the vast numbers that the Reach can raise.

There is literally no real risk to trying to storm Storm's End as quickly as possible and snatch away Robert's capital. The gains are that the war could end more quickly; Mace will be free to send more troops north to deal with Robert's alliance and potentially turn the tide of the Trident by giving Rhaegar a much larger numerical advantage; and endear himself to Aerys and Rhaegar as a set-up for future massive favors for House Tyrell.

There's no reason why Mace couldn't take the keep due to the above advantages.

So it really comes down to Mace being prideful and incompetent or being uncommitted to the royalist cause and going through the motions. Those seem to be the only real explanations and they all point right to Mace and not to what the Reach is capable of.

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