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Mace Tyrell: What was the deal with that lousy siege at Storm's End?


StarkofWinterfell

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert didn't have his full strength at Ashford because he had no time to gather it. He went from Storm's End to Summerhall, won his three battles there, and then pressed on to the Reach. Perhaps he could summon some additional levies to Summerhall but most likely not all that many. You have to keep in mind that the man was defeated by Mace Tyrell's vanguard.

He actually returns to Storm's End in between. Because Stannis remembers him playing axe-throwing games with the men he beat at Summerhall in Storm's End. Men who would go on to die at Ashford.

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I presume Mace was loyal enough to the Targaryens to actually aid them, but saw little point in sacrificing many of his own men for them. So he chose the safe option of starving Storm's End out. If the Targs win, then Mace is safe due to his contribution. If they don't, Mace still has the majority of his men and is in a strong position. Basically, I think it was a case of not really wanting to but feeling obligated to with some political thinking thrown in.

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We don't know how many men they had. Renly managed to Raise that many between the Stormlands and the Reach but I would imagine that had more to do with Reachmen wanting Renly as king than Reachman rallying in force for Mace because Mace wants him as king, the Reach can raise massive amounts of troops but the army Renly raises strikes me as lightning in a bottle rather than the typical force the Tyrells can raise as overlords. Even the Gardener/Lannister alliance raised a much smaller force than that. 

Storming cities and castles in our history was much less common than simply besieging a city or castle, Storm's End is ridiculously strong, it doesn't matter how many men you have you can't just keep throwing men at a wall to die until there are no defenders left, if it's a bloody struggle and you keep getting thrown back morale will plummet and dissension will grow in the ranks of the soldiery and nobility and that leads into a point I don't think gets much attention. 

Perhaps Mace wanted to stay close to his power base because he feared his vassals going over to Robert, the Tyrells were stewards raised up to overlords of the Reach for surrendering to the Targaryens, this is a war that has already split the realm massively, that resentment (Florents for example) could have made Mace fear prominent vassals declaring for Robert in the hope they'll replace the Tyrells or simply gain standing at cost to the Tyrells, Mace may have feared a bloody storming or failed storm of one of the greatest castles in the Realm could only worsen this or that sending more troops North could leave him vulnerable to his own vassals especially if the war seemed to be turning in the rebels favour. 

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

The Reach can't raise 100,000 men. Renly had people from both the Reach and the Stormlands.

Just wanted to answer this point here to prevent the spread of misinformation. Maybe I am nitpicking with answering this but it's pretty widely accepted that the Reach can raise and support that many troops. Renly's force didn't have the entire strength of the Reach with him.

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Personally I think Mace's blundering nature is just for show and he's more cunning than he gets credit for. To the point of the siege of Storm's End. Yes he did tie down his entire army and fleet in a lengthy operation with little to show for it. He took little casualties as well, while the Targaryen loyalists and the rebels were destroying one another. This put's him in a fairly good position. If the Targaryen's triumph, he can say he contributed to the victory by taking the rebel leader's castle and expect to be rewarded. If, as it turned out, the rebels triumph, he didn't actually do much harm to their cause, so there's little resentment and he can call it a day and go home unharmed. Which the so called winners couldn't even say.

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6 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Just wanted to answer this point here to prevent the spread of misinformation. Maybe I am nitpicking with answering this but it's pretty widely accepted that the Reach can raise and support that many troops. Renly's force didn't have the entire strength of the Reach with him.

And where is it mentioned that they can raise 100,000 men? This number only stems from the amount of soldiers in Renly's army.

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10 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Just wanted to answer this point here to prevent the spread of misinformation. Maybe I am nitpicking with answering this but it's pretty widely accepted that the Reach can raise and support that many troops. Renly's force didn't have the entire strength of the Reach with him.

Renly had considerably less then 100000 soldiers at Bitterbridge and we only hear pof 10000 soldiers left at Highgarden. Since at least 20000 of the soldiers were from the Stormlands we're most likely talking about something like 60000 soldiers from the Reach, so even if we ad 20000 as reserves and with the Hightowers we would still be far off the 100000 estimate. 

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13 hours ago, Dofs said:

And where is it mentioned that they can raise 100,000 men? This number only stems from the amount of soldiers in Renly's army.

From the wiki which cites the Game of Thrones RPG game and from Elio Garcia, aka "Ran," who is also the co-author of TWOIAF.

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On 6/25/2016 at 11:38 AM, MinotaurWarrior said:

I see no reason to think Mace cared about the war's outcome.

I see a lot of reasons to think Mace cared about the war's outcome, since he fought Ned's army long after Aerys died.  

In the epilogue to ADWD, Kevan Lannister says that "Highgarden and House Tyrell supported" Aerys "to the bitter end and well beyond."  Aerys' end happened during the Sack of King's Landing.  If Mace supported him to the bitter end and beyond, then Mace was still supporting Aerys well beyond the Sack of King's Landing.  

This is consistent with Ned's thoughts in AGOT, when he says that, several days after the Sack of King's Landing (after Robert had arrived in the capital and Tywin presented the dead children to Robert), Ned thinks:  "Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south."

This suggests that Ned fought more than one battle with Mace's forces after the Sack of King's Landing.  That does not sound like someone who was trying to wait on the sidelines to see who would come out on top.  

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We know of a definite 60,000 for the reach at the very least. Which is still pretty huge. Renly had 80,000 men and 10,000 in reserve at High Garden. If Renly had drawn every possible Stormland levy he might have 30,000 men. Though he may have only had 20-30,000 in reality.

But that means at least 60,000

Some other factors are the Redwynes were absent. They have 200 warships, but the number of actually land levies is unknown. We tend not to count warships, marines and sailors in these numbers.

The Hightowers appear absent in Renly's host. But they could have been present in Mace's host (given his close family ties) or have sent men under relatives/minor family members without committing then sons and named family members we know of like Baelor Brightsmile and Garth Greysteel.

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10 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

I see a lot of reasons to think Mace cared about the war's outcome, since he fought Ned's army long after Aerys died.  

In the epilogue to ADWD, Kevan Lannister says that "Highgarden and House Tyrell supported" Aerys "to the bitter end and well beyond."  Aerys' end happened during the Sack of King's Landing.  If Mace supported him to the bitter end and beyond, then Mace was still supporting Aerys well beyond the Sack of King's Landing.  

This is consistent with Ned's thoughts in AGOT, when he says that, several days after the Sack of King's Landing (after Robert had arrived in the capital and Tywin presented the dead children to Robert), Ned thinks:  "Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south."

This suggests that Ned fought more than one battle with Mace's forces after the Sack of King's Landing.  That does not sound like someone who was trying to wait on the sidelines to see who would come out on top.  

What else would he have done, other than keep his main host outside of Storm's End? The best way to admit defeat is with a huge army at your back. Had he picked up and gone home once the side he was "fighting" (sieging) for lost, then he'd be in a vulnerable position as every banner went back to its castle, none able to resist to this wolf from the north as exacted whatever terms he may have liked. As it is, he was able to dip his banners to Ned Stark and essentially go about his life as if the war had never happened.

Now, clearly he wasn't waiting on the sidelines. He was no Lysa Arryn - but then again, the Reach is no Vale. What I'm saying is that the way he handled the siege was smart for Mace, even if it wasn't best for Aerys.

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15 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I see a lot of reasons to think Mace cared about the war's outcome, since he fought Ned's army long after Aerys died.  

In the epilogue to ADWD, Kevan Lannister says that "Highgarden and House Tyrell supported" Aerys "to the bitter end and well beyond."  Aerys' end happened during the Sack of King's Landing.  If Mace supported him to the bitter end and beyond, then Mace was still supporting Aerys well beyond the Sack of King's Landing.  

This is consistent with Ned's thoughts in AGOT, when he says that, several days after the Sack of King's Landing (after Robert had arrived in the capital and Tywin presented the dead children to Robert), Ned thinks:  "Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south."

This suggests that Ned fought more than one battle with Mace's forces after the Sack of King's Landing.  That does not sound like someone who was trying to wait on the sidelines to see who would come out on top.  

Mace needs to surrender someone to be brought back into the King's peace. He sure as hell wouldn't submit to Stannis. If he packs up and goes home with his men, it just looks like he's regrouping his forces to hold out, conveying an ironically more hostile intent than continuing to besiege SE. If SE does capitulate, he has leverage against Ned/Robert doing anything. If they do not, he hasn't really harmed anyone that matters.

When Ned appeared, Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead, and Viserys fled. There was no one left to fight for, and the war was clearly lost anyway.

The modern concept of "total war" really didn't exist in the medieval period. Armies were personal, as were loyalties. The leader who wanted to fight on till the last drop of blood might well have found himself fighting on alone, since his vassals were likely to have better sense, and their levies were more likely to follow their own lord than the "general." Tyrell's surrender was pretty much warfare as usual. If he had =tried= to give battle to Ned in a lost cause, he might well have found his more opportunistic bannermen deserting to the other side.

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On June 25, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Personally I think Mace's blundering nature is just for show and he's more cunning than he gets credit for. To the point of the siege of Storm's End. Yes he did tie down his entire army and fleet in a lengthy operation with little to show for it. He took little casualties as well, while the Targaryen loyalists and the rebels were destroying one another. This put's him in a fairly good position. If the Targaryen's triumph, he can say he contributed to the victory by taking the rebel leader's castle and expect to be rewarded. If, as it turned out, the rebels triumph, he didn't actually do much harm to their cause, so there's little resentment and he can call it a day and go home unharmed. Which the so called winners couldn't even say.

I agree - Mace the Oaf could very well be a carefully crafted persona, as could Garlan the Gallant, the Knight of Flowers, and Good Queen Margaery.  Without any Tyrell POVs, we really have no idea what they're up to, and as things stand right now, Mace is effectively in charge of the realm. 

I completely disagree with the idea that the siege of Storm's End was "lousy", as we are told in the books were it not for Davos and his onions and turnips, the castle would have starved. Clearly the siege was accomplishing its goal, and as we saw with Robb and Winterfell, losing your home base can be extremely detrimental to a leader's cause. Opting to siege Storm's End was the best move Mace could have made, it kept Aerys happy without pissing off Robert. The worst possible outcome for Mace, the siege failing and Robert winning, resulted in no change in situation for Mace. 

Compare the siege of Storm's End with the siege of Rivverrun, and Mace looks even better. 

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