Drink from the cup of ice....drink from the cup of fire...

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

"A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly." - CoK Dany IV

 

 

So Aeron's lips don't turn blue after all that shade of the evening Euron makes him drink? Maybe blue-grey lips? Or maybe this is Euron after all because the corpse is standing at the prow, not tied up. Dany also has that other dream-vision of a man with blue bruised lips kissing her, which is most likely Euron. The bright eyes, too. 

[The Fattest Leech]

I do not have a ton of time at the moment, but wanted to touch on a few things that have my brain rolling like rollacohsta!

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Indeed.  The Undying are corrupt and deceitful.  So whatever purpose the cotf have for Bran may have something to do with consuming or co-opting his power.  It's a bit chilling that they creep up on him as the lights go out after giving him the weirwood paste that will chain him to the tree.  

It seems like that, yes, but to beat my own GRRM drum ( I know, I know), this actually follows George's writing style as he has done in stories past. There are two stories in particular that I can think of off the top of my head where a "something" sneaks up on the protag in the dark (tunnels most of the time), and the protag gets creeped out, but it turns out that the "thing" was actually a misunderstood human(oid) trying to help. It was a fear of the unknown that led the protag to make false judgements, only to learn the truth after he calms down.

Now, there is another few times where the lights in a tunnel are forced out, and that is because something bad is coming and it was the coming of this being that forced the darkness. But this follows what Dany experiences in the HotU almost to a T, rather than the similar yet different experience Bran has (which is more like the above).

• It seemed as though she walked for another hour before the long hall finally ended in a steep stone stair, descending into darkness. Every door, open or closed, had been to her left. Dany looked back behind her. The torches were going out, she realized with a start of fear. Perhaps twenty still burned. Thirty at most. One more guttered out even as she watched, and the darkness came a little farther down the hall, creeping toward her. And as she listened it seemed as if she heard something else coming, shuffling and dragging itself slowly along the faded carpet. Terror filled her. She could not go back and she was afraid to stay here, but how could she go on? There was no door on her right, and the steps went down, not up.
• (I am looking for the companion quote, but I am limited for time and have to paste it here later, but basically it the same scene and premise)

I do agree that the paste will chain Bran to the trees (I did have that Bran is already changing speculation thread). This may just be a hard truth. One thing for sure is GRRM uses the "seed" analogy over and over in his stories- as humans seeds, and plant seeds, and mental metaphors. This is from the same story that the first cup metaphor I referenced came from. Daenerys did not drink from an actual cup of fire or ice, they were metaphors, but she did drink the trippy juice at the beginning which lead her to the visions, such as Bran does to help get him started. Bran and Dany seem to be different sides of the same coin. Anyway, this idea is from this story (and also made me scratch my head when I thought of Bran and his paste):

On the day after tomorrow, long years from now though they will not seem long once passed, death will begin to grow inside you. The seed is already planted. Perhaps it will be some disease blooming in one of those small sweet breasts Rannar would so dearly love to suckle, perhaps a fine thin wire pulled tight across your throat as you sleep, perhaps a sudden solar flare that will burn this planet clean. It will come, though, and sooner than you think.” (valar morghulis! )

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Funny, what you describe is just how I see Bloodraven’s Lair! Given that I suspect Bloodraven wasn’t the three eyed crow, it has become more and more apperant to me that the trees may not be so different despite the color of their bark/leaves. In fact there are a lot of similarities:

Both are led there by a servant that is something more, or less, than human. (Pryat Pree / ColdHands) but this servant does not enter with them.

Both locations feature large groves of magical trees (The indigo trees / frozen weirwood grove) 

Both locations are full of pint sized creatures (the servitors / the Children)

Both Dany and Bran are fed an odd tasting yet seemingly magical substance that is made from the trees and “lets them see” (Shade of the Evening / Weirwood seed paste)

Both are given instructions not to wander (always the last door on the right / network of caverns)

Both have had many who enter that do not leave (Pryat Pree talks about the front door of the House / the bones)

Both have “living” corpses at their heart (The Undying in the Heart Room / Blood Raven, and the Children, in the Heart Trees)

Both are promised magic and power if they join the occupants (The Undying offer to Dany / Blood Raven’s offer to Bran)

Both see visions, I believe of their respective families, both see Jon (Dany’s Rooms and prophetic threes / Bran’s seeing through the Heart Tree in Winterfell)

Both have some odd time stuff going on (Dany is only gone for a few moments to those outside / Whatever is going on with Bran and the moon)

And of course it shouldn’t have to be said but the Undyiong seem to try and eat Dany at the end… LOOK OUT BRAN!

I see what you are saying, I do and I will address these a bit later. I guess, to me, most of these are in opposition to each other as well. To me it seems a skosh redundant to have the same thing happen on both sides of the world, with just with a color change, to ultimately come to the same ends. Please clarify if I am reading your ideas incorrectly. That is not my intent.

I do believe Bran and Jon will have to work together at some point, and this goes beyond the whatever battles with the Others and wights. To me, defeating that enemy is not the end of the story. Too neat, as may have described it before, and I agree. To have a big battle with the Others being melted down and then the sun shines and everyone dances and picks springtime flowers doesn't fit GRRM's style at all. (not that you were claiming this at all) There is something beyond the battle with the Others.

Anyway, allow me a little bit of time to feed the farm and take care of some other errands and I will get back to you on this. GRRM has made it very clear from the beginning that the politics of the south in King's Landing is not the focus or point of the story, humanity and the heart are. What a great topic this is

Oh, real quickly...

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

I think this could apply to our favorite blue-lipped "hurricane" Euron as well

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It was a fear of the unknown that led the protag to make false judgements, only to learn the truth after he calms down.

Now, there is another few times where the lights in a tunnel are forced out, and that is because something bad is coming and it was the coming of this being that forced the darkness. But this follows what Dany experiences in the HotU almost to a T, rather than the similar yet different experience Bran has (which is more like the above).

• It seemed as though she walked for another hour before the long hall finally ended in a steep stone stair, descending into darkness. Every door, open or closed, had been to her left. Dany looked back behind her. The torches were going out, she realized with a start of fear. Perhaps twenty still burned. Thirty at most. One more guttered out even as she watched, and the darkness came a little farther down the hall, creeping toward her. And as she listened it seemed as if she heard something else coming, shuffling and dragging itself slowly along the faded carpet. Terror filled her. She could not go back and she was afraid to stay here, but how could she go on? There was no door on her right, and the steps went down, not up.

I’m loving the topic!

I wanted to touch on something you mention here because I think it is incredibly important to Bran’s whole character arc, and you seemingly have a very different take on fear re:descending into darkness...

From Bran’s first chapter (the first chapter of the series...):

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Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" 

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?"

 

The man who casts the sentence should swing the sword!

 

These are two of Ned’s big lessons, and I think they apply directly to Bran (and Bloodraven). Especially the part I’m going to focus on now, the fear...

 

Also relevant, because it doubles down on this same idea but approaches from the reverse:

 

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As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

And setting aside the ridiculous parallels between the Night’s King and Bloodraven, this is a story about a man who didn’t follow Ned’s lesson, admit fear and be brave anyway...

Then Bloodraven in his Lair doing his best Darth Vader impression:

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There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

Embrace the Dark Side! Let the hate flow!

This is the polar opposite of Ned’s original lesson...

The man who casts the sentence should swing the sword just dovetails nicely with the image of Bloodraven in D&E ticking off names of men to execute from a list.

And just to throw in a HoTU parallel:

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"The comet led me to Qarth for a reason. I had hoped to find my army here, but it seems that will not be. What else remains, I ask myself?" I am afraid, she realized, but I must be brave. "Come the morrow, you must go to Pyat Pree." 

Not to mention when she gets to the “false throne room” vision of the “magnificent undying”...

 

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A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. "Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth."

"Long have we awaited you," said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be. 

"We knew you were to come to us," the wizard king said. "A thousand years ago we knew, and have been waiting all this time. We sent the comet to show you the way."

"We have knowledge to share with you," said a warrior in shining emerald armor, "and magicweapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered." 

She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood.

 

 

 

And of course this can be compared to the scene where Bloodraven doesn’t know what a three-eyed-crow is... and remember ghat Pree devolved into a “pale wormlike creature” in one of the HoTUvisions.

 

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"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

 

And to bring it back to the topic of fear/bravery:

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"He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie."

"He's being brave," said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered. 

"He's being stupid," Meera said. "I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came."

 

 

I’m case we had forgotten.

 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Isee what you are saying, I do and I will address these a bit later. I guess, to me, most of these are in opposition to each other as well. To me it seems a skosh redundant to have the same thing happen on both sides of the world, with just with a color change, to ultimately come to the same ends. Please clarify if I am reading your ideas incorrectly. That is not my intent.

I do believe Bran and Jon will have to work together at some point, and this goes beyond the whatever battles with the Others and wights. To me, defeating that enemy is not the end of the story. Too neat, as may have described it before, and I agree. To have a big battle with the Others being melted down and then the sun shines and everyone dances and picks springtime flowers doesn't fit GRRM's style at all. (not that you were claiming this at all) There is something beyond the battle with the Others.

Oh, real quickly...

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

And a really quick, beyond the mouth doors leading to both places and the confusing, seemingly circular path to get their, parallel!

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After they had gone down a little, the cave divided, but the left branch was dark as pitch, so even Hodor knew to follow the moving torch to the right.

The way the shadows shifted made it seem as if the walls were moving too. Bran saw great white snakes slithering in and out of the earth around him, and his heart thumped in fear. He wondered if they had blundered into a nest of milk snakes or giant graveworms, soft and pale and squishy. Grave wormshave teeth. 

Hodor saw them too. "Hodor," he whimpered, reluctant to go on. But when the girl child stopped to let them catch her, the torchlight steadied, and Bran realized that the snakes were only white roots like the one he'd hit his head on. "It's weirwood roots," he said. "Remember the heart tree in the godswood, Hodor? The white tree with the red leaves? A tree can't hurt you."

 

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

He can't turn into a WW, they are a completely different species. He can warg into other species (Ghost) but he can't turn his body into a different species. I highly doubt he can warg a WW because how mysterious and weird they are. 

You're mistaking book white walkers with the Others. In the books, alien-looking creatures, that are sort of made of ice, are the Others. And white walkers are just zombies. The Others control white walkers. And dead people/zombies are called white walkers because all blood in their bodies flown to their hands and feet, while the rest of their bodies are snow or milk white.

In the GOT TV-show zombies are called wights, and the Others there called White Walkers, and there they are human, that were turned into something else, while they were still newborn babies.

In books the Others never were humans.

So what I meant, when I wrote that Jon can temporarily turn into white walker, is that he will become a zombie, not the Other.

4 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

points to Euron rather than Victarion.

I was wrong about that one, not Victarion, Aeron the Ironborn priest, was tied to a ship's prow. 

4 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Could be. But if it is, then Jon would be dead by the end of ADWD. Dead as a door nail.

He may die. And later he will be brought back, same how Berric Dondarrion, and Cat. But didn't became normal. They are not exactly became alive. GRRM said that they are fire wights, fire version of white walkers. So Jon will be functioning until he will participate in a main fight of Long Night, and then he will die, permanently.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

He may die. And later he will be brought back, same how Berric Dondarrion, and Cat. But didn't became normal. They are not exactly became alive. GRRM said that they are fire wights, fire version of white walkers. So Jon will be functioning until he will participate in a main fight of Long Night, and then he will die, permanently.

 

I'm wondering if the Wall is made of both fire and ice magic.  According to Melisandre, Jon can access the power of the Wall, within himself and within Ghost.  I question whether it was Melisandre who burned Orell's Eagle and Varamyr or if it was a fire ward that burned them with Melisandre only taking credit for something nobody else understands.  I wonder if this is why she says that the Wall is as much her place as it is Jon's.  

We know the Wall block the ability to warg if Ghost and Jon are on opposite sides of the Wall.  So it interferes with skinchanging and Varamyr was scouting with the eagle and burned when he was directly above the Wall.  If the Wall was only ice magic; how would it stop the ice wights? I think if there is a controlling entity within the body (dead or alive); a fire ward stops them from passing by destroying the soul inside.  The eagle burns from the inside-out.   It's fire after all that destroys the wights. The ice wall itself, might block or contain the killing cold that raises the wights; so it works to protect the living.  At least that's my guess at the moment.

Melisandre herself seems to channel the power of the Wall through her ruby:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

 

So I'm wondering if it will be in Bran's gift to raise Jon using the power of the Wall and I don't see him using ice magic to make him into an analogue of the White Walkers.  I don't think Jon can stand on top of the Wall unless he is raised by fire magic.  But I don't think it will be Melisandre who does it; but rather Bran.  It might be Jon who ends up the most powerful warg of all; someone who is capable for warging a dragon.   Just speculating.          

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

You're mistaking book white walkers with the Others. In the books, alien-looking creatures, that are sort of made of ice, are the Others. And white walkers are just zombies. The Others control white walkers. And dead people/zombies are called white walkers because all blood in their bodies flown to their hands and feet, while the rest of their bodies are snow or milk white.

In the GOT TV-show zombies are called wights, and the Others there called White Walkers, and there they are human, that were turned into something else, while they were still newborn babies.

In books the Others never were humans.

So what I meant, when I wrote that Jon can temporarily turn into white walker, is that he will become a zombie, not the Other.

You are mistaken actually...

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The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . .

And we don’t know where the others come from either. If they are alien or were ever human, or part human, or really much about them at all to be honest.

[The Fattest Leech]

@LiveFirstDieLater I like it! Yeah, I do have some thoughts but I am on my phone at the moment running around and will add this to your other post later. However I did have something spring to mind when I read your post to me and that is to remember "there must always be a Strak in Winterfell"

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

You're mistaking book white walkers with the Others. In the books, alien-looking creatures, that are sort of made of ice, are the Others. And white walkers are just zombies. The Others control white walkers. And dead people/zombies are called white walkers because all blood in their bodies flown to their hands and feet, while the rest of their bodies are snow or milk white.

In the GOT TV-show zombies are called wights, and the Others there called White Walkers, and there they are human, that were turned into something else, while they were still newborn babies.

Oh hell no. The Others is just another name for White Walkers in the books, the reanimated corpses are called wights. The show doesn't change anything with regards to the names, even though they made up an origin story for WW. 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

He may die. And later he will be brought back,

It's not a "may," he is literally bleeding to death. And there are no trauma surgeons at the Wall. And why would his murderers keep the body, risking a wight, instead of cremating the body? 

[867-5309]

On 6/26/2016 at 1:25 AM, Hos the Hostage said:

 

I will argue that both drinks preserve life.  Though the life is not natural.  Both the warlocks and the seers are kept alive past the point of normal life span.

On 3/11/2018 at 10:24 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

One interpretation that I like follows:

Cup of Fire = Shade of the Evening

Cup of Ice = Weirwood Paste

Dany was asking for information and they seem to be saying this is what she must do in order to learn the truth.  

The potions open the perception but the ability to see the past and the future is a talent of Dany and Bran.  Dany possess the abilities of Daenys the Dreamer and Bran is similar to an ancestor, perhaps Brandon the Builder had the same gift.  Someone who can see the future makes for a better architect as he can visualize his large scale project.  

[Megorova]

On 15.03.2018 at 6:27 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

On 14.03.2018 at 8:59 PM, Megorova said:

He may die. And later he will be brought back,

It's not a "may," he is literally bleeding to death. And there are no trauma surgeons at the Wall. And why would his murderers keep the body, risking a wight, instead of cremating the body? 

Bleeding to death, and to bleed to death are to different things. The bleeding still could be stopped, prior he will loose too much blood. There may not be a trauma surgeons there, but there's Melisandre, and maybe she has some potion or a powder, that can close the wound and stop the bleeding. And she wasn't far, when Jon was attacked, so she may use her magic and powders, to chase away Jon's attackers, and give him urgent medical help. 

Also about why would they keep his body, mostly that's because there are still people loyal to Jon, and at least some of them will try to help him. Even if he is dead, they won't just leave his body, and they won't left it to be vandalized by those traitors. So even if someone will be burning him, it will be his own people, on a proper funeral pyre. Though could be that his body (if he's dead) will be send to Winterfell, to be burried with his family. Because he is not some no one, he was Lord Commander, and also last son of Ned Stark. And there's Alys Karstark, and Flint and Norrey, they are bannermen of Jon's father. I don't think that they will let those savages, to just burn him, like some garbage. Even if his body won't be send to Winterfell, they at least will make for him a proper funeral, where will gather people that knew him, and where they will be able to at least say - He was last son of Ned Stark, and Lord Commander of Night's Watch, etc. And now his watch is over.

Someone has to say those words, for Jon to be released from his vows, when he will be revived. He can't be stuck at The Wall for the rest of the series. That would be too much of wasted potential. One of the most interesting characters in the entire series, for 5 books of it, was stuck in one place. That was more than enough. So for next books, he needs to change location.

So my guess is that either they will bring his body to Winterfell, and there in crypts he will be revived by Lightbringer. Or he will be burned at Castle Black, but instead of burning, the fire will revive him, because he is the dragon. Or Melisandre will get to him on time, and will prevent him from bleeding to death. She's able to use even a blood magic, so she will sacrifice someone else (maybe Shireen), to keep Jon alive.

[The Fattest Leech]

First, sorry for my delay. Between the constant wind storms we keep getting hit with, and it spring being around the corner, there are tractor loads of things that I need to get done

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Second, why do you associate Bran with the silver and the darkling stream? The underground river? 

Second... a big fat duh! to me for missing this. Dany and Bran both have "horses" carry them to the darkling stream, however, the rest of their experiences are similar, yet opposite.

Dany:

• Of course Daenerys has her bride gift, Silver.
  • The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.
• The fear came back to her then, with her brother's words. She felt like a child once more, only thirteen and all alone, not ready for what was about to happen to her.
  They rode out together as the stars came out, leaving the khalasar and the grass palaces behind. Khal Drogo spoke no word to her, but drove his stallion at a hard trot through the gathering dusk. The tiny silver bells in his long braid rang softly as he rode. "I am the blood of the dragon," she whispered aloud as she followed, trying to keep her courage up. "I am the blood of the dragon. I am the blood of the dragon." The dragon was never afraid.
  Afterward she could not say how far or how long they had ridden, but it was full dark when they stopped at a grassy place beside a small stream. Drogo swung off his horse and lifted her down from hers. She felt as fragile as glass in his hands, her limbs as weak as water. She stood there helpless and trembling in her wedding silks while he secured the horses, and when he turned to look at her, she began to cry.

 

Compare to Hodor:

• Hodor is over seven feet tall, with brown eyes,a brown beard,and thick brown hair all over his body.It is been suggested by Osha that his large size (and perhaps his body hair) is a result of giants' blood.
• Hodor lifted Bran as easy as if he were a bale of hay, and cradled him against his massive chest. He always smelled faintly of horses, but it was not a bad smell. His arms were thick with muscle and matted with brown hair. "Hodor," he said again. Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name. Old Nan had cackled like a hen when Bran told her that, and confessed that Hodor's real name was Walder. No one knew where "Hodor" had come from, she said, but when he started saying it, they started calling him by it. It was the only word he had.
• Garrons are the only reasonable choice of horse beyond the Wall. Both the Night's Watch and the free folk use them in considerable numbers, both for riding and carrying cargo. Among horses, garrons are notable for their capability to deal with irregular terrain and cold temperatures. Under extreme cold, they fare better than palfreys and far better than destriers, which have considerably higher eating demands and are not particularly capable of dealing with snow.
• Meera began to cry.
  Bran hated being crippled then. "Don't cry," he said. He wanted to put his arms around her, hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him back at Winterfell when he'd hurt himself. She was right there, only a few feet from him, but so far out of reach it might have been a hundred leagues. To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground with his hands, dragging his legs behind him. The floor was rough and uneven, and it would be slow going, full of scrapes and bumps. I could put on Hodor's skin, he thought. Hodor could hold her and pat her on the back. The thought made Bran feel strange, but he was still thinking it when Meera bolted from the fire, back out into the darkness of the tunnels. He heard her steps recede until there was nothing but the voices of the singers.                The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. The days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the one before. The nights grew longer. No sunlight ever reached the caves beneath the hill. No moonlight ever touched those stony halls. Even the stars were strangers there. Those things belonged to the world above, where time ran in its iron circles, day to night to day to night to day.

@LiveFirstDieLater tagging you here because the quoter ate the first tag

[The Fattest Leech]

On 3/15/2018 at 0:27 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Oh hell no. The Others is just another name for White Walkers in the books, the reanimated corpses are called wights. The show doesn't change anything with regards to the names, even though they made up an origin story for WW. 

It's not a "may," he is literally bleeding to death. And there are no trauma surgeons at the Wall. And why would his murderers keep the body, risking a wight, instead of cremating the body? 

Jon is injured, for sure, and he will probably lose consciousness because he is warging Ghost and his body will go limp (this happens to Bran as well), but don't let the "blood welling" worry you too much. George uses that phrase eight times in the book and none of those times are fatal. If that person did die (about half do not die), then the only reason they do die is because of some other secondary fatal wound they take after their blood welling cut.

Oh, and yes, there is a wood's witch healer or two at Castle Black, as well as a skinchanger who can help guide the situation.

[MakeThemBurn]

It's actually very straight-forward. Daenerys has been solely drinking from the cup of fire, in other words been meddling with fire magic aka dragons. She is destined to become the Night Queen and that is when she drinks from the cup of ice. There are other references to this aswell such as "bride of fire" and her "to go forward, I must go back" -line. The back is literally referring to the start of her story - to her marriage with Khal Drogo who served as a plot tool to foreshadow her "marriage" to the Night King. Nissa Nissa is a reference to this aswell since we know - thanks to the show - that the Night King was created with a knife in heart. She converts voluntarily such as her wedding night with Khal Drogo and the Nissa Nissa story suggest. This is due to 2 things: the Night King at this point is Jon Snow and she has lost all of her men and dragons to the previous NK ("valar morghulis"). By becoming the Night Queen she gains the control of her own dead men and dragons and gains the leverage to install her baby son to the throne.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

On 3/13/2018 at 5:03 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wait a minute... she’s the mother of dragons, not the last dragon... at least not yet. They seem kinda exclusive, at least as long as the children (literal dragons) live.

“Remember who you are” is literal, about her parentage... not some esoteric reminder to make sure to burn and bloody the world. I’ve never understood how that makes sense. She’s already crucifying people under her rule en mass... If anything she needs to chill out a bit.

Daenerys is the last dragon, and she is accepting this while out upon her darkling plain at the end of ADWD.

Throughout her AGOT IX chapter, she has these this realization in her mind about waking the dragon. She is the last as Bran is the last, both taking the helm from the one before. This all comes from previous chapters where Viserys talks about he being the last dragon and how Dany doesn't want to "wake the dragon", but Vis thinks it is him, but Dany realizes it is her. These are her internal thoughts:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

"… the dragon …"

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

but don't let the "blood welling" worry you too much. George uses that phrase eight times in the book and none of those times are fatal.

I noticed, that every time when Tyrion falls, his mouth is full of blood. And he falls often. So his blood loss is more serious than Jon's

56 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Daenerys is the last dragon, and she is accepting this while out upon her darkling plain at the end of ADWD.

Jon is the last dragon. Or Rhaego, but not Dany.

56 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

These are her internal thoughts:

Half of those visions are actually what Rhaego experienced, before his birth. In that chapter, the POV was switching between Dany and Rhaego.

58 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

Quaithe was Dany's midwife.

I'm 90% sure that in that chapter Dany gave birth to a healthy boy, Quaithe and maester Marwyn (stopped her bleeding) helped her to deliver the baby, and then Rhaego was kidnapped by Dothraki. And Dany will burn those people for taking her baby away, after she will be reunited with Rhaego in Vaes Dothrak, in her first or second chapter of Winds (unless there won't be Dany's POV in TWOW).

What if in TWOW, there won't be Dany's chapters, nor Jon's, and we won't find out, what happened with them, until release of ADOS, that could be not even completed ever ?

[The Fattest Leech]

@LiveFirstDieLater sorry for the broken up replies. My computer if fritzing out on me and I keep having to restart it.

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I count that up to acting like a child... gotta kill that, because you’re not gonna outlive the riddles.

Yeah, just like Bran is the receiver of children's tales in the series, Daenerys is the receiver of riddles.

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You realize the eye is in the middle of the storm, so when it passes things get ugly again, right?

A quick note about Euron and storms (yes, I was still being cheeky the first time around ), he is described as a "storm", and with his blue lips and missing eye (was it chewed out like Dany's almost was?), he does not seem to be on the "side" or tutelage of Bloodraven.

• I was weak and full of sin, and scorn was more than I deserved. Better to be scorned by Balon the Brave than beloved of Euron Crow's Eye. And if age and grief had turned Balon bitter with the years, they had also made him more determined than any man alive. He was born a lord's son and died a king, murdered by a jealous god, Aeron thought, and now the storm is coming, a storm such as these isles have never known.
• Aeron tugged his beard, and thought. I have seen the storm, and its name is Euron Crow's Eye. "For now, send only silence," he told the lord. "I must pray on this."

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But, I would agree Euron isn’t end game material...

Oh yeah, agreed.

On 3/14/2018 at 8:52 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Funny, what you describe is just how I see Bloodraven’s Lair! Given that I suspect Bloodraven wasn’t the three eyed crow, it has become more and more apperant to me that the trees may not be so different despite the color of their bark/leaves. In fact there are a lot of similarities:

This is honestly going to be the crux in the difference between us. I admit that in the past I seriously questioned what Bloodraven's motivations are and I did at one time fear for Bran. However, subsequent re-reads and then reading all of the ancillary novels changed my mind. I never doubted that Bloodraven wasn't who he is the entire time. Boring, I know.

But on with it, shall we?

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Both are led there by a servant that is something more, or less, than human. (Pryat Pree / ColdHands) but this servant does not enter with them.

The circumstances are not the same, though. Pyat is leading Dany to be consumed, while Coldhands is both saving Sam and Gilly from wights and then assisting them to the wall, as well as leading Bran and friends to Bloodraven for training, and feeding them some smokey long pork along the way

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Both locations feature large groves of magical trees (The indigo trees / frozen weirwood grove) 

 

True. The same, yet different.

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Both locations are full of pint sized creatures (the servitors / the Children)

 

In the loosest terms possible these are the same. We know a bulk of the story of the CotF. What do we know about the demon monkey-esque dwarves that acts as a servant and molesters? Not enough to compare the two besides the small physical stature.

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Both Dany and Bran are fed an odd tasting yet seemingly magical substance that is made from the trees and “lets them see” (Shade of the Evening / Weirwood seed paste)

True. But there is a difference here again. What Bran sees are true visions of events. Daenerys gets a bunch of maybe's ... more darn riddles.

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Both are given instructions not to wander (always the last door on the right / network of caverns)

True again. But where we see Pyat, well the fPyat, try to purposely steer her to certain death, Bran is in an unsafe cave, in the dark, and he is crippled. I am sure the CotF do want him where he is supposed to be, but we know Bran always climbs like a squirrel anyways. If Bloodraven has been watching Bran, he may know this?

Also, since we are discussing the darkling mind-plain stuff here, Bran wandering off has two meanings.

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Both have had many who enter that do not leave (Pryat Pree talks about the front door of the House / the bones)

I am about 62.8% on board with the Jojen paste idea. Jojen, just like those three Freys, are missing and then mysterious food shows up. But this makes me think that IF anyone was eaten, it was Jojen, because Jojen needs to "feed the tree" that is going to be Bran. Those could possibly not be the bones of ones who were lured there, but ones who were sacrificed, and one life for the greater good is a running theme (as much as I hate the idea of Losing Jojen). Granted, this is all highly speculative because we readers just do not know for sure yet.

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Both have “living” corpses at their heart (The Undying in the Heart Room / Blood Raven, and the Children, in the Heart Trees)

Yes, a parallel, but not an exact replica of each other.

The undying are trying to consume Daenerys, but then Danerys turns that big old artifact of a table on them and consumes them with fire via Drogon.

Bran is learning about history. He is becoming the "knight of the mind" that he is destined to be. And contrasted to Daenerys's fire sword, we have the ice mind sword. Another maester says, "minds are like swords," and we have this as well, "and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge."

• "Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid."
  "A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."
• The histories carved into the Talking Trees tell us that these "Years of Shame" endured for the better part of two centuries, until a warrior woman named Xanda Qo, Princess of Sweet Lotus Vale (who had herself been enslaved for a time), united all the islands under her rule and made an end to it.

   

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Both are promised magic and power if they join the occupants (The Undying offer to Dany / Blood Raven’s offer to Bran)

Sure, but for different reasons.

This scene where Dany earns her silver death bells also shows how the HotU are the opposite, inverted side of the forest, and Pyat is a devil's minion:

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

If the Milk Men thought her such a savage, she would dress the part for them. When she went to the stables, she wore faded sandsilk pants and woven grass sandals. Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest, and a curved dagger hung from her medallion belt. Jhiqui had braided her hair Dothraki fashion, and fastened a silver bell to the end of the braid. "I have won no victories," she tried telling her handmaid when the bell tinkled softly.

Jhiqui disagreed. "You burned the maegi in their house of dust and sent their souls to hell."

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Both see visions, I believe of their respective families, both see Jon (Dany’s Rooms and prophetic threes / Bran’s seeing through the Heart Tree in Winterfell)

Bran does see his family, and then some, and goes even farther back. True visions. Dany sees visions of mixed metaphors.

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Both have some odd time stuff going on (Dany is only gone for a few moments to those outside / Whatever is going on with Bran and the moon)

Yes. This is a point I have wanted to get to for a few days now. I cannot see the literary point in having Bran's 3/4 of Bran's story of trials and tribulations to get to the cave, meeting the people he does along the way, having him still there in TWOW, just for it to be the same situation that Dany has and takes up only 3/4 of one chapter. To me, this is a glaring difference. Dany was a quick in, quick out, where the reader is also first introduced to the ice and fire cup metaphor.

Bran is on a journey of sorts. He may have to leave the cave, and it may be a dashing escape to save his life, but I don't see that coming from BR or the CotF. The CotF need help, and they are showing Bran why. Bran may have to leave, probably by that river, which may connect with the Gendel and Gorne caves, but this water connection also calls back to Jon in a big way. Those two are going to end up uniting again.

Bran and Dany both also have a "grandfather"- Ser Barristan "Grandfather" Selmy, and Jojen little grandfather.

Jon and Dany have just as many opposite parallels, both small and large. There is a lot that seems the same, but are really handled rather differently.

Ack! My computer running like a demon. Must let it cool down a bit.

[The Fattest Leech]

58 minutes ago, Megorova said:

What if in TWOW, there won't be Dany's chapters, nor Jon's, and we won't find out, what happened with them, until release of ADOS, that could be not even completed ever ?

I wouldn't worry about things that are not going to happen...

Spoiler

From GRRM specifically about TWOW:

“I think we’re gonna start out with a big smash with the two enormous battles,” Martin says.

...

As he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall.”

I also asked Martin about one extremely eagerly anticipated character pairing: Tyrion and Daenerys. What will their interaction be like?

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.” http://ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I love how this thread started out as yet another lame attempt to shoehorn R+L= D into the story; then people came along and started actually dissecting and discussing the real shazam! There are some great posts here. I'm really enjoying the discussion. I think the weirwood-shade parallels are some of the most interesting aspects of the story and as a relatively recent aspect to go under the microscope still have plenty of avenues to explore. 

[LynnS]

On 3/14/2018 at 0:21 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

I've wondered about this because after Dany burns the place down we're told:
 

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Dany had laughed when he told her. "Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost prowess?"

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!"

 

Which begs the question:  did Sybassion go into the HoU and leave something of himself behind? 

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I've wondered about this because after Dany burns the place down we're told:
 

Which begs the question:  did Sybassion go into the HoU and leave something of himself behind? 

I’ll have to check in to this a little more closely, but it seems that it could be another inverted tree thing? When you look at what everyone else is doing, what is wrong is right ( or the other way around )

 

Also, the phrase “bad for trade” is interesting because that was an excuse the Citadel used for... something... but I’ll have to refresh my memory on that, too, later.