UK Politics: A Farcical Aquatic Ceremony

[Slick Mongoose]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The FTSE 250 has dropped sharply, but is still only back to where it was in March.

You're cherry picking a historical down spike. We've just wiped out the last two years of gradual gains.

Although I will admit that the longer term trend will matter more than just today, we haven't even left yet.

[Slick Mongoose]

Also, if you look at it in dollar terms, it's a lot worse:

http://i.imgur.com/Wd3fovj.jpg

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, England's Finest said:

8 minutes ago, England's Finest said:

You're cherry picking a historical down spike. We've just wiped out the last two years of gradual gains.

Although I will admit that the longer term trend will matter more than just today, we haven't even left yet.

 

Markets fluctuate.  Thirty years ago, the pound fell to near parity with the dollar.  A couple of years later, it was back to 1.40.  Life went on well enough for most of us.

[Slick Mongoose]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Markets fluctuate.  Thirty years ago, the pound fell to near parity with the dollar.  A couple of years later, it was back to 1.40.  Life went on well enough for most of us.

And analyists say we're entering recession later this year. Lots of people are going to lose their jobs over this.

In other news, shadow cabinet resignations have hit 50%.

[Which Tyler]

Just to keep tabs - and I'm well aware I'm talking about a small minority here; but this morning Ali was at work alone, and someone came in specifically to shout "F*** off out of our country" before running away. Reducing her to tears.
We've also heard directly from patients (specifically 2 Italians and a German) who've had similar situations within Tewkesbury.
I have written to our MP asking him to publicly condemn such behaviour as some people really do seem to think it socially acceptable now.

I also don't know what to do personally. Obviously, I have come into work just to be present on the front desk - and I am wearing my France rugby top.
If it happens again I know full well that I would want to chase the idiot down the street; but that can only aggaravate things. I've also considered getting a CCTV system to cover reception - which is considered a public space and I believe I'd need a licence to do so.

[Maltaran]

2 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Incidentally, full credit to Andy Burnham here. He obviously differs with Corbyn on issues, but he realises that a revolt against the membership is a terrible idea.

That's mainly because he's running for mayor of Greater Manchester so he needs them to support him in the selection process.

[The BlackBear]

25 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Just to keep tabs - and I'm well aware I'm talking about a small minority here; but this morning Ali was at work alone, and someone came in specifically to shout "F*** off out of our country" before running away. Reducing her to tears.
We've also heard directly from patients (specifically 2 Italians and a German) who've had similar situations within Tewkesbury.
I have written to our MP asking him to publicly condemn such behaviour as some people really do seem to think it socially acceptable now.

I also don't know what to do personally. Obviously, I have come into work just to be present on the front desk - and I am wearing my France rugby top.
If it happens again I know full well that I would want to chase the idiot down the street; but that can only aggaravate things. I've also considered getting a CCTV system to cover reception - which is considered a public space and I believe I'd need a licence to do so.

Jesus, sorry to hear that. Have you spoken to the police? I never quite know where the cut off for hate speech is, but it can't hurt to get information from them. Filming public spaces does require some sort of permission I think, you could ask about that as well.

Did she get a look at him? I am sort of assuming your wife is white, so there'd surely have to have been some contact fro him to know she wasn't English.

[Maltaran]

I was feeling like Corporal Jones a lot this weekend, now I'm feeling more like Frazer

[Jo498]

2 hours ago, Altherion said:

I agree with you about the situation, but I disagree about the last sentence. Maybe I'm biased by the ones I know best and maybe in some countries they're not as bad, but my impression is that the over the past few decades, the "social democrat" parties have been hopelessly corrupted to the point where it is unlikely that they will ever try to significantly alter the current system. They still differ from their mainstream right-wing counter parts in a variety of ways, but they are the same in quite a few economic tenets which are at the heart of the problem.

I agree for the most part, and I don't know enough about the current British Labour Party to know whether is is reformable (in the direction of social democracy not in the direction of becoming completely indistinguishable from centrist conservatives). But "New Labour" and Blair+Schröder were the ones who started the drift away from social democracy when they each came to power after years of conservative governments in the respective countries. (Admittedly Thatcher was very different from Kohl as the latter was both almost social democratic in social/economic policy compared to many of today's social democrats and, fat, clumsy and (probably) corrupt bastard he was, he was a fierce proponent of European unity). And Brown and Merkel/Steinbrück made the bailouts for the banksters in 2008. So the blame part certainly stands.

But still there are some remains of more traditional social democrats in those parties, admittedly often either old or not the top rank personnel.

The problem is that most of the populist protest parties like UKIP (not sure about Front Nationale, they have been around for a long time) are completely clueless. As shown by the lies they told during Brexit (free trade but blocking immigrants, savings for NHS etc.). They are nothing but a steam valve for people's anger or indication that something has been very wrong for several decades now (and not even the rude wakeup call of the 2007-09 financial crisis has shook the mainstream parties awake).

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Two questions: 

First, why haven't England and Wales been thrown out of the Euro Cup? The people of the U.K. just rejected Europe, so why are they still allowed to play in the tournament? 

Second, if Scotland votes to leave the U.K., does that mean that the English Wimbledon drought is back in effect?

These are important questions, people!

[The BlackBear]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Two questions: 

First, why haven't England and Wales been thrown out of the Euro Cup? The people of the U.K. just rejected Europe, so why are they still allowed to play in the tournament? 

Second, if Scotland votes to leave the U.K., does that mean that the English Wimbledon drought is back in effect?

These are important questions, people!

Well because it would also mean the England Iceland game would be very boring if neither team can compete (although England have a good go at not competing either way.)

It depends whether you want a UK winner at Wimbledon or a British (technically Scotland is in Great Britain, but not Britain) winner. Murray would remain British whether he hails from an independent Scotland or not.

[DaveSumm]

It occurs to me that practically every discussion in the build up and aftermath of this were to do with collateral damage. The economic downturn has proven at least partly true, but then a Leaver could always argue "so we're stuck in it because the economic downsides of leaving are too great?" Meanwhile, Leavers are quick to point out that they aren't all xenophobic pricks who are under the impression that all foreigners are packing as we speak. To which Remainers could reply "yes, but you validated this by voting in the same side." Again, it would seem you are held to ransom just because unfavourable people share your position, albeit for disgusting reasons. 

So what if we strip away all of that? If there were some way of pressing a button and we could magically not be in the EU, but nobody noticed and carried on? I confess, as a Remainer, my arguments are all entirely collateral and I'm far less prepared for that question. How many times did we hear an honest to god EU law that we actually lose through this? Of course there's the free movement of labour, but has anyone actually read it? What does it say? Are there no caveats at all?

[Slick Mongoose]

15 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

So what if we strip away all of that? If there were some way of pressing a button and we could magically not be in the EU, but nobody noticed and carried on?

Presumably that's free access to the common market, in exchange for which we will have to accept free movement of labour and paying into the EU, as well as accepting certain EU laws for goods we export. It's not what the leavers think they voted for, mind.

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, The BlackBear said:

Jesus, sorry to hear that. Have you spoken to the police? I never quite know where the cut off for hate speech is, but it can't hurt to get information from them. Filming public spaces does require some sort of permission I think, you could ask about that as well.

Did she get a look at him? I am sort of assuming your wife is white, so there'd surely have to have been some contact fro him to know she wasn't English.

Have emailed my MP, and on his advice, emailed the local cops. I really, really don't want to go down the CCTV route, but if it's what we have to do...

As for contact etc - the first incident was to my face; but I was far too taken aback, and then angry to be able to recall anything much about him; and the second was apparently from around a corner, she didn't even see him.

Yes, we're both of white skin; but her nationality is known - we've been here for 9 years; our website has a potted pen-pic of ourselves; hell the local news in the build-up to the election included pictures of our business listing us as "a French chiropractor" whilst making a point on diversity within Tewkesbury.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

59 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

Well because it would also mean the England Iceland game would be very boring if neither team can compete (although England have a good go at not competing either way.)

It depends whether you want a UK winner at Wimbledon or a British (technically Scotland is in Great Britain, but not Britain) winner. Murray would remain British whether he hails from an independent Scotland or not.

But if Scotland leaves the U.K., wouldn't it's citizens cease to be British? 

[Andrés Garcia]

34 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

It occurs to me that practically every discussion in the build up and aftermath of this were to do with collateral damage. The economic downturn has proven at least partly true, but then a Leaver could always argue "so we're stuck in it because the economic downsides of leaving are too great?" Meanwhile, Leavers are quick to point out that they aren't all xenophobic pricks who are under the impression that all foreigners are packing as we speak. To which Remainers could reply "yes, but you validated this by voting in the same side." Again, it would seem you are held to ransom just because unfavourable people share your position, albeit for disgusting reasons. 

So what if we strip away all of that? If there were some way of pressing a button and we could magically not be in the EU, but nobody noticed and carried on? I confess, as a Remainer, my arguments are all entirely collateral and I'm far less prepared for that question. How many times did we hear an honest to god EU law that we actually lose through this? Of course there's the free movement of labour, but has anyone actually read it? What does it say? Are there no caveats at all?

You make some good points. I'm fervently against the EU, but for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with immigration. In fact, I'm an open border kind of guy. I just think that democracies should be very local and small. People should vote on things that directly affect them. They should be able to feel the influence of their vote to a larger degree. Their representatives, in so far as they need any, should not be too removed geographically, socially, and economically speaking. I want our strategy for getting rid of nation states to be directed downwards rather than upwards. I therefore believe that any development towards big supranational states, modern empires in effect, is dangerous and not in line with the ideals I associate with democracy. These are very strong values that I have that I can't put to the side just to spite some bigoted assholes.

[The BlackBear]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But if Scotland leaves the U.K., wouldn't it's citizens cease to be British? 

Nope, Britain is to do with Geography. Northern Irish folks are UK but not British. So they aren't synonymous.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

35 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Have emailed my MP, and on his advice, emailed the local cops. I really, really don't want to go down the CCTV route, but if it's what we have to do...

As for contact etc - the first incident was to my face; but I was far too taken aback, and then angry to be able to recall anything much about him; and the second was apparently from around a corner, she didn't even see him.

Yes, we're both of white skin; but her nationality is known - we've been here for 9 years; our website has a potted pen-pic of ourselves; hell the local news in the build-up to the election included pictures of our business listing us as "a French chiropractor" whilst making a point on diversity within Tewkesbury.

This is some genuinely terrifying stuff I'm hearing. I saw many of the headlines about Anti immigrant and racist behaviour that had occurred in the last couple of days, but I assumed it was just blown up in the way that the papers usually blow things up.

But when you hear about it from outside the usual media that suddenly it becomes real. 

This is scary, like the early days of Nazi Germany... sorry for the hyperbole but thats how it feels.

[Which Tyler]

That's basically exactly why I'm reporting it - both here (and elsewhere I'm a regular contributor) and to the police / local MP.

Well that and a fear of hypocracy given that I've adviced others to report 1-off incidents in the past.

 

As for the hyperbole; yeah that is hyperbolic, for as long as it's still being challenged, reported and taken seriously. There has always been a degree of racism / xenophobia; the difference in this sudden surge is that A] it's a sudden aurge; and B] that these "people" seem to feel like they have a madate to spout this stuff now, rather than thinking it but knowing it's not socially acceptable.

[DaveSumm]

47 minutes ago, Andrés Garcia said:

You make some good points. I'm fervently against the EU, but for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with immigration. In fact, I'm an open border kind of guy. I just think that democracies should be very local and small. People should vote on things that directly affect them. They should be able to feel the influence of their vote to a larger degree. Their representatives, in so far as they need any, should not be too removed geographically, socially, and economically speaking. I want our strategy for getting rid of nation states to be directed downwards rather than upwards. I therefore believe that any development towards big supranational states, modern empires in effect, is dangerous and not in line with the ideals I associate with democracy. These are very strong values that I have that I can't put to the side just to spite some bigoted assholes.

I must say, I've not come across a non-nationalist argument for Leave. Interesting.