UK Politics: A Farcical Aquatic Ceremony

[Datepalm]

Seriously, no one has said anything about Brexit in 58 minutes? For shame. 

[Taphien]

Shhh, everybody waiting to find out who is leaving the Euro next: Portugal or Croatia

[Taphien]

Seriously though, it's starting to feel as if the British Government is trying to avoid the actual Brexit with all their talk of "the next guy can invoke Art 50", "let's not be hasty invoking Art 50" and "btw we lied about the money and the immigration".

 

Destroying the international market for party internal politics really makes you friends worldwide.

 

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

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What exactly is your point? Two thirds of your peers did not show up to vote. All polls indicated that it would be a neck and neck race. So they kinda deserved to get shafted by the elderly. I mean it's not like Johnson took his ridiculous bus on a thursday trip to collect all the elderly from retirement homes and dropped them off at the next voting station. The Scots on the other hand, let's say, I can see how they have an axe to grind with the south, and why they want no part of that result. 

To be clear I'm not advocating the idea that the young are the victims of the old in this or some such idea, indeed the elderly vote was what kept Scotland in the UK (maybe not necessarily a wise decision considering the results on Friday, but my preferred outcome at the time).

What I am objecting to is the idea that people vote based on their demographic groups, rather than as individuals. So saying "if group x had done this then the outcome could have been different" is really rather silly given that no individual in that group had any responsibility for the actions of any other individual. I know that is not what you were saying, but it is what Chaircat Meow implied.

[Chaircat Meow]

1 minute ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

To be clear I'm not advocating the idea that the young are the victims of the old in this or some such idea, indeed the elderly vote was what kept Scotland in the UK (maybe not necessarily a wise decision considering the results on Friday, but my preferred outcome at the time).

What I am objecting to is the idea that people vote based on their demographic groups, rather than as individuals. So saying "if group x had done this then the outcome could have been different" is really rather silly given that no individual in that group had any responsibility for the actions of any other individual. I know that is not what you were saying, but it is what Chaircat Meow implied.

Yeah, but Chaircat Meow said what he said because liberals keep talking like this, saying the old voted to screw the young.

I am aware people vote as individuals.

[Lordsteve666]

Heh, for what it's worth Wales just took NI out of Europe for the 2nd time in 48hrs. 

Link

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

9 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Yeah, but Chaircat Meow said what he said because liberals keep talking like this, saying the old voted to screw the young.

I am aware people vote as individuals.

Yeah, it's a bit silly of some people to imply that this is a young vs old or that a vote is invalid because the elderly had a major effect on the outcome as a demographic.

[Chaircat Meow]

Hearing rumours Labour MPs are going to go all out for Jez now. Reports there has been a shift of mood in the party, even among Corbyn supporters.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

3 minutes ago, Leap said:

Just like to take a second to appreciate the thread titles provided by Datepalm. 

I came back to mention just that.  I think it is my favourite political thread title yet.

 

For those unaware of the reference:

 

Relevant part is around 2:30

[maarsen]

Nothing like a bit of Monty Python to put it all in perspective.

[Werthead]

A prominent Brexit-supporting MEP has said that EU migration will continue after the election because Britain has to stay in the common market and thus acknowledged that free movement might have to continue. This caused Evan Davis to lose his shit in exasperation at the twerp, pointing out that millions of people had just voted to end EU migration, no buts, no ifs and no mitigation.

As I said earlier, the petition for a second referendum is fundementally undemocratic without a major shift in the underlying premise on which the first referendum was held. However, with the votes in that petition now approaching 3 million and the Leave campaign admitting that the two main promises it made during the campaign (£350 million a week for the NHS and an end to the free movement principle) were bullshit, we are not far off that point.

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Also very interestingly, for our Scottish and Northern Irish boarders, paragraph 70 says (my bold) "We asked Sir David whether he thought the Scottish Parliament would have to give its consent to measures extinguishing the application of EU law in Scotland. He noted that such measures would entail amendment of section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998, which binds the Scottish Parliament to act in a manner compatible with EU law, and he therefore believed that the Scottish Parliament’s consent would be required. He could envisage certain political advantages being drawn from not giving consent." and paragraph 71 says "We note that the European Communities Act is also entrenched in the devolution settlements of Wales and Northern Ireland. Though we have taken no evidence on this specific point, we have no reason to believe that the requirement for legislative consent for its repeal would not apply to all the devolved nations."

Wait, Scotland has to ratify Brexit and if it refuses, it can keep the entire UK in the EU against its will? So at that point the government in London would have to basically cut Scotland off even if it lost an independence referendum in order for England and Wales to leave?

I don't that that interpretation would withstand legal scrutiny or democratic morals, but that's quite hilarious.

[maarsen]

This whole mess comes across as a divorce between two people who want to split but can't sell the house. The web of ties between the UK and the EU will take a lifetime to unravel. Act in haste, repent at leisure.

[The guy from the Vale]

7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 

Wait, Scotland has to ratify Brexit and if it refuses, it can keep the entire UK in the EU against its will? So at that point the government in London would have to basically cut Scotland off even if it lost an independence referendum in order for England and Wales to leave?

I don't that that interpretation would withstand legal scrutiny or democratic morals, but that's quite hilarious.

Why wouldn't it? The way I see things, the Scottish Parliament has not received a mandate for Brexit from its voters.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Norway, Switzerland, Leichenstein, and Iceland all seem to be surviving okay outside the EU. Whenever this many pundits insist the sky is falling I get skeptical. It may instead be a reordering of winner and losers, but not necessarily catastrophic for everyone. I've adopted a wait and see attitude. I think regrexit is waisted energy, the vote has been made, the U.K. should now embrace it and plod forward on it's new path.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Can a subset of the UK leave the EU (England and Wales) while other portions remain (Scotland NI) without the UK breaking up itself?

[DaveSumm]

28 minutes ago, Werthead said:

A prominent Brexit-supporting MEP has said that EU migration will continue after the election because Britain has to stay in the common market and thus acknowledged that free movement might have to continue. This caused Evan Davis to lose his shit in exasperation at the twerp, pointing out that millions of people had just voted to end EU migration, no buts, no ifs and no mitigation.

As I said earlier, the petition for a second referendum is fundementally undemocratic without a major shift in the underlying premise on which the first referendum was held. However, with the votes in that petition now approaching 3 million and the Leave campaign admitting that the two main promises it made during the campaign (£350 million a week for the NHS and an end to the free movement principle) were bullshit, we are not far off that point.

 

I don't think I've ever felt less confidence in our governance. Brexiteers are currently back channeling a run at government, and it looks like they had absolutely no plan to actually address the premise that they ran on. They're showing no signs that they even knew they would have to deal with it at all. Did they think Cameron would tie a bow on his downfall for them and hand over the Conservative party all neat and tidy? Or do they assume that the public are so gullible they'll forget all of this? I can't decide whether Boris is sipping champagne at the fruition of his master plan or shitting himself at how huge this whole thing has become, and the terrifying prospect that he'll actually have to deal with it.

[The guy from the Vale]

13 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Norway, Switzerland, Leichenstein, and Iceland all seem to be surviving okay outside the EU. Whenever this many pundits insist the sky is falling I get skeptical. It may instead be a reordering of winner and losers, but not necessarily catastrophic for everyone. I've adopted a wait and see attitude. I think regexit is waisted energy, the vote has been made, the U.K. should now embrace it and plod forward on it's new path.

All of them have EU membership light (i.e., they are part of the common market, allow the free movement of people, and pay market access fees that are about as high as EU membership fees would be) The point with all of them is that their governments have decided not to be part of the EU officially because that would be unpopular with voters and to keep their own currency, but to still join in all but name... and in effect, the price they pay for this is that they have to follow all EU legislation without having a voice in how that legislation is shaped.

Now the Brexit campaign basically told voters that the UK didn't have to allow the free movement of people or pay any membership fees after leaving, which also means they have to opt out of the common market... and that's where the problem for the UK will come from. Also, the UK already got a hefty rebate on their membership fees; the market access fees to the EU common market could well exceed that old membership fee!

[A Horse Named Stranger]

8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Can a subset of the UK leave the EU (England and Wales) while other portions remain (Scotland NI) without the UK breaking up itself?

Short answer. No. That's why Sturgeon is talking about an Independence Referendum reloaded. As long as Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, they are in for the Penny and in for the Pound, and out of the EU in this case.

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Can a subset of the UK leave the EU (England and Wales) while other portions remain (Scotland NI) without the UK breaking up itself?

No. The EU has member countries, not member regions (it would be rather like Texas trying to secede from the United Nations while remaining in the United States).

The Scottish Parliament thing is a red herring: Westminster is only bound by convention to consult it on such an amendment. Sovereignty still ultimately rests in London (and indeed Westminster could abolish the Scottish Parliament tomorrow if it chose).

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Wait, Scotland has to ratify Brexit and if it refuses, it can keep the entire UK in the EU against its will? So at that point the government in London would have to basically cut Scotland off even if it lost an independence referendum in order for England and Wales to leave?

I don't that that interpretation would withstand legal scrutiny or democratic morals, but that's quite hilarious.

Presumably Westminster could (and probably will at some point) amend that Scotland act appropriately, although doing that unilaterally would annoy the Scots even more than they are at the moment.

Can a subset of the UK leave the EU (England and Wales) while other portions remain (Scotland NI) without the UK breaking up itself?

I read an article about Greenland leaving the EU which is the only previous time somewhere has left the EU. Of course, there are many reasons why Greenland is unlike the UK and the relationship between Greenland and Denmark is far different to the relationship between the parts of the UK.

Reading that story the fact that it took them 3 years to negotiate leaving does show how ambitious the 2 year target for the UK leaving is.

In other news, Jeremy Corbyn has just sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary Hillary Benn in the latest instalment of the Labour-shooting-itself-in-the-foot saga.