Crows and Ravens: Confusion

[Adam Targaryen]

Some people might be wondering what I'm stifling on about, but worse threads keep flooding the forums to naught but mine frustration.

 

Am I the only one who thinks about the weird/annoying/confusing thing about ravens and crows in the books? Two very similar black birds who both play big parts in the series. Perhaps it would have been better if there was only the one kind.

 

Ravens - Carriers of letters, symbols of information and knowledge. House Blackwood. "The Three Eyed Raven" in GOT. etc.

 

Crows - The Night's Watch. Euron Crow's Eye. The Stormcrows. "The Three Eyed Crow" in ASOIAF. etc.

 

So why is Bloodraven called The Three Eyed Crow in the books, and The Three Eyed Raven in the TV series? He can be both, as he is a Blackwood as well as a former member of the Night's Watch. I also believe that the three eyed crow (or raven) is also a supernatural omen beyond the wall, at least I think Osha mentioned something about it on GOT. Anyways, what do you all think about the fact that these two birds are both intertwined in this world symbolically? Is it confusing?

[Lord Asher Forrester]

I don't think it is confusing in general, they seem to fit their purposes on the series, and even when analysing it simbolically we can tell when they are being preety much the same thing or not.

They are very near even at a symbolic level, but as you pointed the Ravens are more symbols of knowledge then normal crows, see Odin Raven's, Huginn (thought) and Munnin (memmories or mind), and crows on ASOIAF seems to be more associated with death than ravens. 

It is a little more confusing in my language, portuguese, because "corvo"(crow) it's a common word, everyone know what is one crow in Brazil, but "gralha" (raven) it's not an animal (and word) of most people knowing here, so some translators put almost everything as being crow's, even the ravens that carry the messages. Altough, in the exact region i live, southest and coldest part of Brazil, we have a real nice species of Blue Raven (Gralha Azul).

[White Ravens]

3 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

I don't think it is confusing in general, they seem to fit their purposes on the series, and even when analysing it simbolically we can tell when they are being preety much the same thing or not.

They are very near even at a symbolic level, but as you pointed the Ravens are more symbols of knowledge then normal crows, see Odin Raven's, Huginn (thought) and Munnin (memmories or mind), and crows on ASOIAF seems to be more associated with death than ravens. 

It is a little more confusing in my language, portuguese, because "corvo"(crow) it's a common word, everyone know what is one crow in Brazil, but "gralha" (raven) it's not an animal (and word) of most people knowing here, so some translators put almost everything as being crow's, even the ravens that carry the messages. Altough, in the exact region i live, southest and coldest part of Brazil, we have a real nice species of Blue Raven (Gralha Azul).

That Gralha Azul is a very beautiful bird!  But it isn't a Raven or a Crow.  It is yet another intelligent corvid.  It is a member of the Jay family.

[Kienn]

Why have garnets when you can have rubies?

Why have red when you can have crimson?

Why have silver when you can have gold?

Why have wolves when you can have dire wolves?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

9 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

It is a little more confusing in my language, portuguese, because "corvo"(crow) it's a common word, everyone know what is one crow in Brazil, but "gralha" (raven) it's not an animal (and word) of most people knowing here, so some translators put almost everything as being crow's, even the ravens that carry the messages. Altough, in the exact region i live, southest and coldest part of Brazil, we have a real nice species of Blue Raven (Gralha Azul).

Bad decision on those translators' part, IMHO. So, "raven" is not a commonly recognized word? That's OK. Use it. Hell, treat is as if it was a completely made up new word. It'll grow on the readers, and they'll associate it with the messenger bird. I bet that at first most anglophone readers had no clue what a "direwolf" was, and some thought that it was just a word GRRM had made up (not exactly, although prehistoric dire wolves don't have very much in common with the Stark direwolves). Problem? Nope. 

While "crow" = "raven", as we see, does make problems.

[Clegane'sPup]

18 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

So why is Bloodraven called The Three Eyed Crow in the books,

I can understand the confusion. Bloodraven supposedly got his nickname because of his birthmark.His men were named Raven’s Teeth. Plus the Blackwood coat of arms depicts ravens surrounding a weirwood.

Bran climbs the broken tower which has crow nests atop it. Sometimes Bran feeds the crows. Bran names the bird that comes to him in dreams the three eyed crow and Jojen also refers to the three eyed crow. I would think these kids would know the difference between crow & raven.

Ravens help save Sam & Gilly. Ravens hanging out in the old weirwood tree in the Citadel. Ravens that seem to communicate with Coldhands. Ravens in BR cave. A raven that Bran skinchanges. Lord Bryden tells Bran that all the ravens have singers (CotF) in them. Theon sees a murder of ravens in WF during the marriage of Ramsey & Jeyne. He thinks: muttering to one another in the murderers' secret tongue.

 

So I’m going to chalk it up as case of mistaken identity by Bran & Jojen or a direct misdirection by Martin. The readers of the novels don’t really have much information about Bloodraven unless they have read the novellas.

[Maester of Valyria]

I often think that the reason the show uses a Three Eyed Raven is because it's easier to train ravens, eg in Bran's dream scenes in the crypts.

[Adam Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I can understand the confusion. Bloodraven supposedly got his nickname because of his birthmark.His men were named Raven’s Teeth. Plus the Blackwood coat of arms depicts ravens surrounding a weirwood.

Bran climbs the broken tower which has crow nests atop it. Sometimes Bran feeds the crows. Bran names the bird that comes to him in dreams the three eyed crow and Jojen also refers to the three eyed crow. I would think these kids would know the difference between crow & raven.

Ravens help save Sam & Gilly. Ravens hanging out in the old weirwood tree in the Citadel. Ravens that seem to communicate with Coldhands. Ravens in BR cave. A raven that Bran skinchanges. Lord Bryden tells Bran that all the ravens have singers (CotF) in them. Theon sees a murder of ravens in WF during the marriage of Ramsey & Jeyne. He thinks: muttering to one another in the murderers' secret tongue.

 

 

 

So I’m going to chalk it up as case of mistaken identity by Bran & Jojen or a direct misdirection by Martin. The readers of the novels don’t really have much information about Bloodraven unless they have read the novellas.

Yeah, you just listed tons of reasons why it should be The Three Eyed Raven in the books, and not the Three Eyed Crow, just as I should have done in my first post. Bran should have been feeding ravens. Then everything would make sense.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

I think you have noticed something important... Ravens and crows are NOT the same in the series.

"The crow calling the raven black" is actually a phrase used in every book so far, and the dunk and egg series.

It's a cute copy of the pot calling the kettle black... But I think it could also be a tip off to more...

A plot point I don't think will be in the show, thus the name change.

In fact I don't think BloodRaven came to Bran as a three eyed crow...

 

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. 

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

 

Other things appear in Brans dreams, like the face on the weirwood that watches him during the falling dream...

 

 

[YOVMO]

13 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Hell, treat is as if it was a completely made up new word

exactly what I am thinking. I mean, what do they do with Weirwood? Direwolves? and all the other things that are right from the book. If I had never heard of a raven in my life, I would understand exactly what I need to from the context.

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

So why is Bloodraven called The Three Eyed Crow in the books,

Bloodraven is linked to ravens via his birthmark that looks like a raven that is red or "blood" colored.  The Three-Eyed Crow name comes from his time as a member of the Watch with members called crows, his third "eye" not being an actual eye like the other two, but his greenseeing ability.

[Ebrose]

In Spanish translation they use exactly the same word ("cuervo") for both species, which is kind of annoying. Unfortunately, there is no other translation in Spanish for "raven" (http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=raven), so I kind of understand why the translators didn't think of coming up with a particular name for each of them.

By the way, I long switched to the original versions of the novels. They are infinitely more enjoyable.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 minutes ago, Ebrose said:

In Spanish translation they use exactly the same word ("cuervo") for both species, which is kind of annoying. Unfortunately, there is no other translation in Spanish for "raven" (http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=raven), so I kind of understand why the translators didn't think of coming up with a particular name for each of them.

By the way, I long switched to the original versions of the novels. They are infinitely more enjoyable.

I think there are some other words for the corvidae that one can use. There's cuervo, there's corneja, there's graja - there's some room to maneuver.

But yes, reading the books in their original language is obviously superior, I switched as soon as I could.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think you have noticed something important... Ravens and crows are NOT the same in the series.

"The crow calling the raven black" is actually a phrase used in every book so far, and the dunk and egg series.

It's a cute copy of the pot calling the kettle black... But I think it could also be a tip off to more...

A plot point I don't think will be in the show, thus the name change.

In fact I don't think BloodRaven came to Bran as a three eyed crow...

 

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. 

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

 

Other things appear in Brans dreams, like the face on the weirwood that watches him during the falling dream...

 

 

Aren't the three eyed crow and the Weirwood tree in Bran dreams connected? In ACOK a dream of Brans implies it this way. 

[Ebrose]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I think there are some other words for the corvidae that one can use. There's cuervo, there's corneja, there's graja - there's some room to maneuver.

But yes, reading the books in their original language is obviously superior, I switched as soon as I could.

Good catch! I wish they had used "corneja" instead, as it seems quite appropriate. Despite being a different species than ravens ("cuervo grande"), they would have fit perfectly, in my opinion.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I like that GRRM includes lots of animals and plants in his books. I never found it very confusing myself, but that is because I'm obsessed with animals. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Aren't the three eyed crow and the Weirwood tree in Bran dreams connected? In ACOK a dream of Brans implies it this way. 

So it's not entirely clear, the three eyed crow flys from the branches of the weirwood... But they are clearly distinct from one another... 

He fought against sleep as long as he could, but in the end it took him as it always did. On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

You will notice the tree seems to be trying to talk to him, and the crow comes and pecks his head... This is very similar to what it does when Bran tries to remember Jaime in his falling dream and it seems to cause him to forget.

Also, note that a voice as sharp as swords sure doesn't sound like Bloodraven. 

Just for kicks, if a one eyed man opens an extra eye, that makes two not three... You know since bran comments on the number of eyes when meeting Bloodraven and all.

[Macgregor of the North]

44 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So it's not entirely clear, the three eyed crow flys from the branches of the weirwood... But they are clearly distinct from one another... 

He fought against sleep as long as he could, but in the end it took him as it always did. On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

You will notice the tree seems to be trying to talk to him, and the crow comes and pecks his head... This is very similar to what it does when Bran tries to remember Jaime in his falling dream and it seems to cause him to forget.

Also, note that a voice as sharp as swords sure doesn't sound like Bloodraven. 

Just for kicks, if a one eyed man opens an extra eye, that makes two not three... You know since bran comments on the number of eyes when meeting Bloodraven and all.

Yeah about as distinct as a flying bird can be from a tree i suppose.

Note, the three eyed crow doesnt always speak to Bran with a voice as sharp as swords, hes mostly quite cool with him, maybe hes just frustrated that Bran hasnt opened his third eye yet and all the bird can do is peck and shout his name in frustration?.

Also just for kicks, he once was a man with two eyes, one just got taken out earlier in life and has a weirwood root growing through it now. I wouldnt look into that to much, the whole three eyed thing probably just ties in with greenseers seeing all their magical stuff see with their third eye, regardless of whether a tree root grows through one of your old regular two now.

If you have some compelling evidence that the three eyed crow is some completely different entity to bloodraven share it by all means as i love to read stuff like that, but ive never been totally convinced myself, my mind is open however.   

[Springwatch]

All ravens are crows. Not all crows are ravens.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yeah about as distinct as a flying bird can be from a tree i suppose.

Note, the three eyed crow doesnt always speak to Bran with a voice as sharp as swords, hes mostly quite cool with him, maybe hes just frustrated that Bran hasnt opened his third eye yet and all the bird can do is peck and shout his name in frustration?.

Also just for kicks, he once was a man with two eyes, one just got taken out earlier in life and has a weirwood root growing through it now. I wouldnt look into that to much, the whole three eyed thing probably just ties in with greenseers seeing all their magical stuff see with their third eye, regardless of whether a tree root grows through one of your old regular two now.

If you have some compelling evidence that the three eyed crow is some completely different entity to bloodraven share it by all means as i love to read stuff like that, but ive never been totally convinced myself, my mind is open however.   

Hey that's fair, it's about the entertainment of it anyway... And while I'm pretty convinced there is something fishy going on I certainly can't be sure... It's mostly a lot of little things.

As for the number of eyes I only brought it up because Bran did... Not really going too deep with it.

Interestingly you say the three eyed crow doesn't speak like that normally, I'd say he doesn't speak much at all... In fact during the whole falling sequence there are no quotes around anything it "says". This is unusual in a series where that tends to only happen when pov's are thinking to themselves.

Oh and that weirwood is in the falling dream to, brooding over the icy pool and watching bran "knowingly".

Lets remember how much of the three eyes crow stuff has come from Jojen, who  by his own admission is just a boy with dreams. Also, there is a pretty good trend of people misinterpreting dreams. In this case it's a three eyed crow pecking at chains of a winged wolf, but unable to free him. This is followed by Theon's capture of Winterfell, where Bran tries to warg Summer but the doors to the godswood are chained closed... Only after reuniting with summer does Jojen say the chains are off the wolf now.

Finally, for now anyway (there is more but I don't want to write a novel here) I can't get over the similarities between what Bran sees after looking into the Heart of Winter, and BloodRavens lair.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. 

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

The weirwood grove above BR's lair is described as:

But the air was sharp and cold and full of fear. Even Summer was afraid. The fur on his neck was bristling. Shadows stretched against the hillside, black and hungry. All the trees were bowed and twisted by the weight of ice they carried. Some hardly looked like trees at all. Buried from root to crown in frozensnow, they huddled on the hill like giants, monstrous and misshapen creatures hunched against the icy wind. "They are here."

It seems to me those might be the icy spikes flying up at Bran in his dream...

And of course his cave is full of the bones of dreamers impairs on the roots of the tree...