[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion - one last time ;o)

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

4 minutes ago, LulaMae Barnes said:

ooooh, I like your "when the sun rises in the west..." theory! I have never thought of that.

Though most people find Quentyn's storyline boring - I must admit I would have liked some of Quentyn's "adventure".

Of course we won't get to see the 3 betrayals in the show - but I do fear they will somehow morph/fuse Daarios story with the events happening in book-Astapor: when Dany leaves Astapor she sets up a council to rule the city and the newly freed slaves but a butcher then overthrows and kills that council, crowns himself king and starts his reign of terror (maybe related to show-Cersei?)....

Show-Daario is left behind to help setting up something similar to that council - so the freed slaves in Meereen can somehow vote their new leaders....WHAT IF...Daario now - after being unceremoniously ditched by his beloved girlfriend - decides he wants some power for himself?

Well, that could happen in GoT - but I rather image we will never see Jorah, Daario and Meereen ever again....

O still love..

"Diplomatic Meeren votes for their new leader"

"I am going to go conquer and mAintain the monarchy in Westeros!"

[LulaMae Barnes]

10 minutes ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

O still love..

"Diplomatic Meeren votes for their new leader"

"I am going to go conquer and mAintain the monarchy in Westeros!"

Yep...that will never make sense at all....besides: the way that KellyC.is now going to conquer Westeros - a place that knows nothing about her and where the people are definitely not in need of yet another ruler -  it will also quite the dictatorship.

[lujo]

To the poor guy who went to defend what I said - sorry you got caught in the crossfire. To somebody who's read all the same stuff GRRM's read, ASOIAF reads more like a fan-fiction wiki than actual literature. And we're not talking homages here, we're talking... We're talking takign the main character of a series of books (for example the VorKosigan saga) contemporary to Martin, and putting him in his book with the entirety of his appeal taken from the person that originally came up with the character. Tyrion Lannister IS Miles VorKosigan, and Miles VorKosigan was both very conspicuous (unmistakeably so) and hot intelectual property at the time Martin just, well, stole him entirely. Do an homage, that's cool. But pick up somebody elses character at the height of the characters popularity and make him almost the main character - the only reason he didn't get sued, and lost, is because the woman who came up with character didn't even read Martin and it took him ages to become noticed (or rather it took the books in question ages to get noticed). Glen Cook did the grimdark better and Gene Wolfe did the complex so much more complex than Martin that it's completely puzzling that Marin has at any point been conisdered really complex.

Anyway what Martin liked to lift was not historical domain like Lovecrafts stuff. It was as if I right now wrote fanfiction about, IDK, Arya and in 10 years people who never read Martin considered me the inventor of Arya. Except way worse, because if someone stole, IDK, Arya, they could do more with her than Martin did (hell, Martin wrote more about her than ever got into the books, so even HE could). That's because his characters are essentially 1-2 note comic book caricatures (due in part to the structure of the work), but the stuff he stole from isn't necessarily as shallow. I do bet it sucks to be him, to know how little he himself has to do with his sucess. His just juggling other people's stuff and stock characters around a dungeons and dragons campaign map trying to get them in the right places so he can then write about historical battles.

Most of the stuff in the books is something like that, stock characters and watered down other people's intelectual property noone ever bothered to sue him over, and a lot of what isn't that is just shameless pandering. Really. There's a whole lineage of white haired and purple eyed scions of an ancient mystic people, there's kids with pet wolves, everything is color coded, there's dragons (because his publisher convinced to put them in, just like they get put in in any product that's remotely fantasy related for some reason), and just about anything that happens is lifted out of somewhere elese or even just a history book (when anything is actually happening, that is). And when the whole thing got made into a rather lousy comic book someone complained that "it didn't feel like Martin but like a collection of fantasy stereotypes". The comic book artist did have quite a bit of trouble with drawing people who didn't all look the same and like fashion models at the same time, but... the problem is that too much of the text consists of fantasy stereotypes.

I quite like Martin, despite everything, because I've read the same stuff he has, which is how I know him for what he is and I can even appreciate it. And there's a bit more to it all than just that, but his actual strengths get lost. But I've met a lot of fans of ASOIAF and for the vast majority of them their love and appreciation for Martin stemmed from the fact that they didn't read very much at all.

Just like with the Polish guy, except Martin stole from more sources. Seriously "The White Wolf" was the in-series nickname of the albino protagonist of Moorcocks novels where every single white haired fantasy character has been directly lifted from (unless there's now a generation stealing from the idiots who stole from Moorcock). And that character was meant as a parody, specifically of Conan but also of anti-Heroes. Trust Martin to put them both in as Bloodraven and Bittersteel , because hey, one man's joke character is another man's artwork -.- 

 

[Illiterati]

Regarding travel times, I believe Varys' Mereen-Dorne-Mereen-Sea Voyage in the space of a couple episodes, and particularly Dorne-Mereen-Sea in episode 10, was purposefully done by D&D to troll the critics.  I think they regularly read these forums and other fansites, and have put several tongue-in-cheek points to draw a reaction over the last two seasons.  I think much of LF being beamed all over Westeros is likewise a joke.  Imagine the thought that they could be capable of deep level humor aimed at fans, something beyond cock jokes!

 

Hi D!  Hi D!

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

45 minutes ago, lujo said:

To the poor guy who went to defend what I said - sorry you got caught in the crossfire. To somebody who's read all the same stuff GRRM's read, ASOIAF reads more like a fan-fiction wiki than actual literature. And we're not talking homages here, we're talking... We're talking takign the main character of a series of books (for example the VorKosigan saga) contemporary to Martin, and putting him in his book with the entirety of his appeal taken from the person that originally came up with the character. Tyrion Lannister IS Miles VorKosigan, and Miles VorKosigan was both very conspicuous (unmistakeably so) and hot intelectual property at the time Martin just, well, stole him entirely. Do an homage, that's cool. But pick up somebody elses character at the height of the characters popularity and make him almost the main character - the only reason he didn't get sued, and lost, is because the woman who came up with character didn't even read Martin and it took him ages to become noticed (or rather it took the books in question ages to get noticed). Glen Cook did the grimdark better and Gene Wolfe did the complex so much more complex than Martin that it's completely puzzling that Marin has at any point been conisdered really complex.

Anyway what Martin liked to lift was not historical domain like Lovecrafts stuff. It was as if I right now wrote fanfiction about, IDK, Arya and in 10 years people who never read Martin considered me the inventor of Arya. Except way worse, because if someone stole, IDK, Arya, they could do more with her than Martin did (hell, Martin wrote more about her than ever got into the books, so even HE could). That's because his characters are essentially 1-2 note comic book caricatures (due in part to the structure of the work), but the stuff he stole from isn't necessarily as shallow. I do bet it sucks to be him, to know how little he himself has to do with his sucess. His just juggling other people's stuff and stock characters around a dungeons and dragons campaign map trying to get them in the right places so he can then write about historical battles.

Most of the stuff in the books is something like that, stock characters and watered down other people's intelectual property noone ever bothered to sue him over, and a lot of what isn't that is just shameless pandering. Really. There's a whole lineage of white haired and purple eyed scions of an ancient mystic people, there's kids with pet wolves, everything is color coded, there's dragons (because his publisher convinced to put them in, just like they get put in in any product that's remotely fantasy related for some reason), and just about anything that happens is lifted out of somewhere elese or even just a history book (when anything is actually happening, that is). And when the whole thing got made into a rather lousy comic book someone complained that "it didn't feel like Martin but like a collection of fantasy stereotypes". The comic book artist did have quite a bit of trouble with drawing people who didn't all look the same and like fashion models at the same time, but... the problem is that too much of the text consists of fantasy stereotypes.

I quite like Martin, despite everything, because I've read the same stuff he has, which is how I know him for what he is and I can even appreciate it. And there's a bit more to it all than just that, but his actual strengths get lost. But I've met a lot of fans of ASOIAF and for the vast majority of them their love and appreciation for Martin stemmed from the fact that they didn't read very much at all.

Just like with the Polish guy, except Martin stole from more sources. Seriously "The White Wolf" was the in-series nickname of the albino protagonist of Moorcocks novels where every single white haired fantasy character has been directly lifted from (unless there's now a generation stealing from the idiots who stole from Moorcock). And that character was meant as a parody, specifically of Conan but also of anti-Heroes. Trust Martin to put them both in as Bloodraven and Bittersteel , because hey, one man's joke character is another man's artwork -.- 

 

I don't know much about Miles Vorkosigan besides him being a result of some event and having a small stature and being extremely smart.

Are those the only two similarities between the two characters? Because that seems like a vague trope over a plagiarizing

Also... 

 

Ever since Game of Thrones got really popular, I’ve heard people say that if you like Tyrion Lannister as a character you’ll also like Miles Vorkosigan. And I know a bunch of people that started reading the Vorkosigan Saga for exactly that reason. Do you see similarities between the two characters?

I have not read Game of Thrones yet, so I don’t know. I must point out that Miles came first. I wrote The Warrior’s Apprentice in 1984, so do your math, folks. I think that probably Martin and I were stealing from the same source. I believe that Game of Thrones is explicitly somewhat inspired by Plantagenet history and Miles is sort of ironically inspired by it. So I think it’s a case of similar sources, in this case. Great minds think alike, I don’t know.

[Forlong the Fat]

1 hour ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

So she's been cutting her hair after her walk of shame the hair she loved and is one of her features because she really liked the look eh?

Tyrion kept his hair nicely trim in his travels from Volantis to Valyria to Meereen having his hair cut and beard trimmed by Jorah and then the slavers.

Yes. I am suggesting she cuts her hair. 

[Caerl Targaryen]

All I have to say about this episode is thank the gods for these "Criticize Without Repercussion" threads. They help me keep my sanity during the 10 weeks Game of Thrones airs every year. Far too many hilarious comments to begin singling them out. 

For those that have complained about look of the actress that played Lyanna Stark (Aisling Franciosi), she's actually quite beautiful if you eliminate the factors that intentionally made her look worse in the episode (i.e., just having given birth, dying). No one would look good after giving birth and dying shortly afterward.

Aisling Franciosi - Pic 1

Aisling Franciosi - Pic 2

Aisling Franciosi - Pic 3

In no way am I trying to defend this farce of an episode (even calling it a farce seems too generous) but I thought the casting was actually quite good for Lyanna. Aisling has a striking resemblance to Maisie Williams, Kit Harington, and Sean Bean. Or close enough that I could believe the character was related to their characters. The biggest problem is we didn't get to see her playing a healthy Lyanna. She was playing a sweaty, bloody, dying Lyanna in a poorly lit room.

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

Just now, Forlong the Fat said:

Yes. I am suggesting she cuts her hair. 

Yes except it wouldn't make much sense that a character as defiant and strong willed as Cersei would willingly keep her hair the length that those who defied her and made her walk for shame made it 

 

From martin himself interviewed about the show:

"There are symbolic aspects to the Walk of Atonement or the Walk of Shame," Martin explains. "You're naked. You have nothing to hide. All concealment has been denied you. Your hair has all been shaved off. You're completely vulnerable. There's nothing more to hide ... That's the spiritual justification for this sort of thing."

"People didn't see the kings and their lords very often except when they passed by in their incredibly lavish items," continued Martin. “When you take all of that away from a Queen like Cersei, who, up till then has only been seen by her subjects as this incredibly beautiful woman attended by maids and protected by knights, it’s a way to strip her of all of the power that attends to her majesty.”

 

So yes if a decent amount of time has passed I don't expect her hair to be still kept short...

Never mind that if we consider the time it takes for...

Jamie to return. Myrecella's funeral, raising the troops to attack the Sept, Jamie going to Casterly rock to get the army ((as if the Lannister army was at KL the Tyrell army wouldn't have been needed for raising troops to attack the sept. Jamie taking army from Casterly rock to rivverrun to lift the siege, then to the twins to have dinner with Frey. Then left at x-time to see the remains of the fire and the coronation of Cersei.

We're talking a few months. 

Forget hair, why would her trial be so far away?  I honestly can't remember if that is explained in the show or if the time of trial is said. 

Time is a fickle thing in a story. It might not seem important but it is for the sheer fact that eventually most of these storylines are going to start colliding. 

I mean you already see it.. 

Queen of Thorns knows about her families death yet the Maesters know nothing about Jeor Mormonts death and Jon snows succession.. which means in the years they say have passed in show no one sent a raven? 

Note hand waving about Aemon doesn't necessarily work either as he knew his duties as a Maester. Jeor died in the fourth episode of the third season Aemon died the seventh episode of the fifth season. 

Jon is elected LC Season 5 episode 2 while Aemon is still alive and lucid enough to at least hold the election.

Doesn't strike you as odd? 

[lujo]

1 hour ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

I don't know much about Miles Vorkosigan besides him being a result of some event and having a small stature and being extremely smart.

Are those the only two similarities between the two characters? Because that seems like a vague trope over a plagiarizing

Also... 

 

Oh no no no, it IS plagiarising. I think I remember an old interview where Martin is asked about the, erm, STRIKING similarity between the two characters and he straight up said it's Miles VorKosigan but instead of having good parens his mother died and his father turned cruel, so he had a worse life and was more bitter. Hell I remember a debate a long time ago where one kid I knew was arguing that there's no point in reading Game of Thrones because Tyrion is the only thing worth reading about, but he's miles and miles books are all abotu miles and none of the side crap, and another kid arguing that reading GoT is interesting specifically because you get to see what Miles' life would be like in medieval times, even though you have to endure a bunch of other crap. Kids could tell this.  

Otherwise they're the same exact character - down to the bloody plot in the first book. Miles ends up attacked by mercenaries by accident and then he talks them into joining him, and calls them after a mountain range near his home, the Dendari mountains. Tyrion, of course, does the same with mountain clans in the pretty much the same exact fashion adjusted for setting. And then he talks is father into sponsoring them, just like miles did, look, this is beyond pointless because...

if you did know anything about Miles, or a number of other things, you'd know that GoT is basically what happened when a big fat SF nerd, pissed off at character driven space opera winning all the awards in the SF field, simply took characters out of it and vandalized them by subjecting them (along with plots) to a different * setting. Catelyn is a parody of Miles' mother, very, very obviously so. The only difference is that in Martins work she turns out to have been wrong about her notions. The man seems to have been obsessed with the VorKosigan saga and idly defacing it's characters and making them fail. It just looks so monumentally petty. And it's no wonder, he was having 0 sucess as a novelist and this daft woman was just raking in the rewards with sklocky crap with crossover appeal. It must've driven him mad.

If you don't believe me, just read it. What you said is key - you don't know much amout Miles. Every time you see an old time fantasy sf fan belittling Martin (or rather belittling ASOIAF in particular, and I could also praise it in some ways, it's just getting way too much praise so I don't feel like it) and somebody else being bewildered or sceptical - the guy defending Martin has in 99.9% cases not actually read the other work in question. 

It's the same as with "The White Wolf" belonging to the Polish guy. The only way you think that's his originally his if you don't know for fact where he stole it from, and you could wake up anyone of a certain age in the middle of the night and ask them who's the White Wolf, and it's Elric. And show them a picture of Geralt and they'd go "No, wait, that's a bad picture, Elric is supposed to be thinner, you drew him wrong." Same with the question: "Who's Tyrion Lannister" - "It's just Miles VorKosigan who got teleported back into the midle ages by this fat dick with some kind of grudge". The problem is that that's his most popular character, AND that his appeal comes not from what he's done with the character, but from the actual character.

But I guess that's karma for you...

(* I wrote genre up there, but that's just the thing - ASOIAF is not in a different genre than the VorKosigan saga, that's the hilarious bit - it's space opera disguised as fantasy, which is why it works as well as it does. And why it breaks down - folks can't travel at the speed of plot as in space opera, so the books become all about logistics and painful processess of getting a character from point A to point B for technical reasons like wiewpoint and just the ability to advance the plot. If it turns out it was "science fiction all along", nobody will be surprised, as that has been done to death 50 years ago... except the kids these days haven't read any of it, so yeah, he'll be conisdered a genious I suppose. But that's all it is - this guy was sick of non sf character driven stuff invading SF and taking over, so he got miffed and went over to the "fantasy" section and went "all right, now I'm going to do fantasy ""wrong"! Take that!".)

[lareine]

On June 26, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Wall Flower said:

Not only giving birth but dying! Seriously, that has to be the shallowest criticism ever. For the record, I've seen the actress in the Irish drama the Fall, where she played a sexy but psycho teenager. I thought that she would make a good Lyanna - she does look a bit like Kit Harrington and I also thought she was lovely (if a middle aged straight woman can be any judge).

 

 

She's quite good at playing teenage nymphets who cause mayhem by becoming involved in illicit activities with hot, older married guys with kids    

[Wall Flower]

4 minutes ago, lareine said:

She's getting to be quite good at playing teenage nymphets who cause mayhem by becoming involved in illicit activities with hot older married guys with kids    

Hopefully, Rhaegar doesn't turn out to be a serial killer. Although, in this show who knows!

[rhythmicsheep]

1 hour ago, Caerl Targaryen said:

All I have to say about this episode is thank the gods for these "Criticize Without Repercussion" threads. They help me keep my sanity during the 10 weeks Game of Thrones airs every year. Far too many hilarious comments to begin singling them out. 

For those that have complained about look of the actress that played Lyanna Stark (Aisling Franciosi), she's actually quite beautiful if you eliminate the factors that intentionally made her look worse in the episode (i.e., just having given birth, dying). No one would look good after giving birth and dying shortly afterward.

Aisling Franciosi - Pic 1

Aisling Franciosi - Pic 2

Aisling Franciosi - Pic 3

In no way am I trying to defend this farce of an episode (even calling it a farce seems too generous) but I thought the casting was actually quite good for Lyanna. Aisling has a striking resemblance to Maisie Williams, Kit Harington, and Sean Bean. Or close enough that I could believe the character was related to their characters. The biggest problem is we didn't get to see her playing a healthy Lyanna. She was playing a sweaty, bloody, dying Lyanna in a poorly lit room.

Yeah, I loved the casting too. There are people imagining her with sharp features/strong jawlines (in the Lyanna casting appreciation thread) but as she was described as a 'child-woman' my mind went more to a round face and playful demeanor that is very attractive. Aisling seems like a great fit 

[lareine]

14 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Hopefully, Rhaegar doesn't turn out to be a serial killer. Although, in this show who knows!

 

Well, since Ned didn't find her with freshly washed hair and painted nails it's a good sign he wasn't. Though you're right, with this show you never can tell!

BTW- Thank you for pointing out that she was in the crazy teenage babysitter in The Fall. I knew I'd seen her somewhere before but I couldn't quite place it. 

[Wall Flower]

26 minutes ago, lujo said:

Oh no no no, it IS plagiarising. I think I remember an old interview where Martin is asked about the, erm, STRIKING similarity between the two characters and he straight up said it's Miles VorKosigan but instead of having good parens his mother died and his father turned cruel, so he had a worse life and was more bitter. Hell I remember a debate a long time ago where one kid I knew was arguing that there's no point in reading Game of Thrones because Tyrion is the only thing worth reading about, but he's miles and miles books are all abotu miles and none of the side crap, and another kid arguing that reading GoT is interesting specifically because you get to see what Miles' life would be like in medieval times, even though you have to endure a bunch of other crap. Kids could tell this.  

Otherwise they're the same exact character - down to the bloody plot in the first book. Miles ends up attacked by mercenaries by accident and then he talks them into joining him, and calls them after a mountain range near his home, the Dendari mountains. Tyrion, of course, does the same with mountain clans in the pretty much the same exact fashion adjusted for setting. And then he talks is father into sponsoring them, just like miles did, look, this is beyond pointless because...

if you did know anything about Miles, or a number of other things, you'd know that GoT is basically what happened when a big fat SF nerd, pissed off at character driven space opera winning all the awards in the SF field, simply took characters out of it and vandalized them by subjecting them (along with plots) to a different * setting. Catelyn is a parody of Miles' mother, very, very obviously so. The only difference is that in Martins work she turns out to have been wrong about her notions. The man seems to have been obsessed with the VorKosigan saga and idly defacing it's characters and making them fail. It just looks so monumentally petty. And it's no wonder, he was having 0 sucess as a novelist and this daft woman was just raking in the rewards with sklocky crap with crossover appeal. It must've driven him mad.

If you don't believe me, just read it. What you said is key - you don't know much amout Miles. Every time you see an old time fantasy sf fan belittling Martin (or rather belittling ASOIAF in particular, and I could also praise it in some ways, it's just getting way too much praise so I don't feel like it) and somebody else being bewildered or sceptical - the guy defending Martin has in 99.9% cases not actually read the other work in question. 

It's the same as with "The White Wolf" belonging to the Polish guy. The only way you think that's his originally his if you don't know for fact where he stole it from, and you could wake up anyone of a certain age in the middle of the night and ask them who's the White Wolf, and it's Elric. And show them a picture of Geralt and they'd go "No, wait, that's a bad picture, Elric is supposed to be thinner, you drew him wrong." Same with the question: "Who's Tyrion Lannister" - "It's just Miles VorKosigan who got teleported back into the midle ages by this fat dick with some kind of grudge". The problem is that that's his most popular character, AND that his appeal comes not from what he's done with the character, but from the actual character.

But I guess that's karma for you...

(* I wrote genre up there, but that's just the thing - ASOIAF is not in a different genre than the VorKosigan saga, that's the hilarious bit - it's space opera disguised as fantasy, which is why it works as well as it does. And why it breaks down - folks can't travel at the speed of plot as in space opera, so the books become all about logistics and painful processess of getting a character from point A to point B for technical reasons like wiewpoint and just the ability to advance the plot. If it turns out it was "science fiction all along", nobody will be surprised, as that has been done to death 50 years ago... except the kids these days haven't read any of it, so yeah, he'll be conisdered a genious I suppose.)

I believe that this is actually a show thread so you seem to be wildly off topic here. Also, you have moved beyond literary criticism, which is fair enough, to personal attacks on the author, which I don't think is okay.

[athmystikal]

So the Faceless men are now literally faceless - because Arya stole all the faces. Poor sexy Jesus. He is going to be miserable without any company - not even the faces.

[Primalsplit]

13 hours ago, Ash Enshugar said:

Jon = Geralt confirmed! Next up he's going to drink lots of vodka mutagens and travel to a universe that makes more sense.

 

Steel for Humans, Valyrian Steel for Monsters.

[The Boastful Knight]

1 hour ago, lujo said:

Oh no no no, it IS plagiarising. I think I remember an old interview where Martin is asked about the, erm, STRIKING similarity between the two characters and he straight up said it's Miles VorKosigan but instead of having good parens his mother died and his father turned cruel, so he had a worse life and was more bitter. Hell I remember a debate a long time ago where one kid I knew was arguing that there's no point in reading Game of Thrones because Tyrion is the only thing worth reading about, but he's miles and miles books are all abotu miles and none of the side crap, and another kid arguing that reading GoT is interesting specifically because you get to see what Miles' life would be like in medieval times, even though you have to endure a bunch of other crap. Kids could tell this.  

Otherwise they're the same exact character - down to the bloody plot in the first book. Miles ends up attacked by mercenaries by accident and then he talks them into joining him, and calls them after a mountain range near his home, the Dendari mountains. Tyrion, of course, does the same with mountain clans in the pretty much the same exact fashion adjusted for setting. And then he talks is father into sponsoring them, just like miles did, look, this is beyond pointless because...

if you did know anything about Miles, or a number of other things, you'd know that GoT is basically what happened when a big fat SF nerd, pissed off at character driven space opera winning all the awards in the SF field, simply took characters out of it and vandalized them by subjecting them (along with plots) to a different * setting. Catelyn is a parody of Miles' mother, very, very obviously so. The only difference is that in Martins work she turns out to have been wrong about her notions. The man seems to have been obsessed with the VorKosigan saga and idly defacing it's characters and making them fail. It just looks so monumentally petty. And it's no wonder, he was having 0 sucess as a novelist and this daft woman was just raking in the rewards with sklocky crap with crossover appeal. It must've driven him mad.

If you don't believe me, just read it. What you said is key - you don't know much amout Miles. Every time you see an old time fantasy sf fan belittling Martin (or rather belittling ASOIAF in particular, and I could also praise it in some ways, it's just getting way too much praise so I don't feel like it) and somebody else being bewildered or sceptical - the guy defending Martin has in 99.9% cases not actually read the other work in question. 

It's the same as with "The White Wolf" belonging to the Polish guy. The only way you think that's his originally his if you don't know for fact where he stole it from, and you could wake up anyone of a certain age in the middle of the night and ask them who's the White Wolf, and it's Elric. And show them a picture of Geralt and they'd go "No, wait, that's a bad picture, Elric is supposed to be thinner, you drew him wrong." Same with the question: "Who's Tyrion Lannister" - "It's just Miles VorKosigan who got teleported back into the midle ages by this fat dick with some kind of grudge". The problem is that that's his most popular character, AND that his appeal comes not from what he's done with the character, but from the actual character.

But I guess that's karma for you...

(* I wrote genre up there, but that's just the thing - ASOIAF is not in a different genre than the VorKosigan saga, that's the hilarious bit - it's space opera disguised as fantasy, which is why it works as well as it does. And why it breaks down - folks can't travel at the speed of plot as in space opera, so the books become all about logistics and painful processess of getting a character from point A to point B for technical reasons like wiewpoint and just the ability to advance the plot. If it turns out it was "science fiction all along", nobody will be surprised, as that has been done to death 50 years ago... except the kids these days haven't read any of it, so yeah, he'll be conisdered a genious I suppose. But that's all it is - this guy was sick of non sf character driven stuff invading SF and taking over, so he got miffed and went over to the "fantasy" section and went "all right, now I'm going to do fantasy ""wrong"! Take that!".)

What is your point though? That Martin stole characters and plots? Fine, Show me a contemporary fantasy work that is completely original. Not mostly, completely.  That he shouldn't be called a genious? Because I think everyone who has ever read more fantasy than Tolkien and Martin will admit that Martin is not a genious. And I haven't read any of the books you mentioned, but I have read others and I never called GRRM a genious. And I suggest you read or watch some interviews with Sapkowski ("The Polish Guy"), there are some subtitled ones on yt, because he'll be the first to admit that he has stolen a lot from folktales and whatnot. Hell, if you read one of his books, it becomes apparent, that there is not much originality in his works.

But my real question is. Does any of this matter? Should it influence the enjoyment of these works as a piece of entertainment? Cause the vast majority of readers/watchers won't care about any of this. I know this stuff, and I don't really care. I still love ASOIAF and The Witcher series, it's just I know what they are and I treat them as such.

[RhaenysBee]

12 hours ago, Steelegrave said:

Must have missed that theory.  Who's E?

Elia....................

[David Selig]

2 hours ago, lujo said:

Oh no no no, it IS plagiarising. I think I remember an old interview where Martin is asked about the, erm, STRIKING similarity between the two characters and he straight up said it's Miles VorKosigan but instead of having good parens his mother died and his father turned cruel, so he had a worse life and was more bitter. Hell I remember a debate a long time ago where one kid I knew was arguing that there's no point in reading Game of Thrones because Tyrion is the only thing worth reading about, but he's miles and miles books are all abotu miles and none of the side crap, and another kid arguing that reading GoT is interesting specifically because you get to see what Miles' life would be like in medieval times, even though you have to endure a bunch of other crap. Kids could tell this.  

Otherwise they're the same exact character - down to the bloody plot in the first book. Miles ends up attacked by mercenaries by accident and then he talks them into joining him, and calls them after a mountain range near his home, the Dendari mountains. Tyrion, of course, does the same with mountain clans in the pretty much the same exact fashion adjusted for setting. And then he talks is father into sponsoring them, just like miles did, look, this is beyond pointless because...

You got to be kidding. Tyrion and Miles are completely different in personality. Tyrion is a selfish jerk who is a rapist and multiple murderer, while Miles is a selfless hero who has never done anything like that and sacrificed himself for others about a zillion times. Miles has awesome parents who always support him. Tyrion has Tywin who hates him and want to see him dead. Miles is a professional soldier and great at it. Tyrion sucks at fighting and considers warriors fools. miles have no problem finding girlfriends. Tyrion obviously sucks at it. Etc, etc. The only similarities in personality are that both are really short (but for different reasons) and have plenty of charisma and smarts, but that's pretty vague.

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Catelyn is a parody of Miles' mother, very, very obviously so.

Another groundless claim. The only similarities are that they are both sensible and practical women with red hair. Oh, and that their name start with a C, of course.

[yomi]

8 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

I've got issues with St Tyrion too, so please don't get me wrong-- yet what you've described above, that's little more than being a 'conqueror.' The big game, the game of thrones, I've always taken that to be about the bloodless [and bloody, if necessary] art of diplomacy and political machinations in general.

And if that's the case, then yes, Dany definitely has a lot to learn.  

I don't see what Dany has to learn in the show. Killing your enemies with fire seems to have worked fine for Cersei, and Dany can do it better than her