[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion - one last time ;o)

[WSmith84]

36 minutes ago, Littlefingerbanger said:

So you'd rather there be 10 more episodes of this buildup? I remember there being lots of complaints about the same old Arya storyline ever she went to Braavos where all she does is face challenges.  Actually I was one of them myself. With the number of episodes left, they have to move the plot as soon as they can. Yes, they have taken liberty to slow or speed up the timeline as per their needs and we need to suspend some of our disbelief as well. I am pretty sure GRRM commented on the timeline issue in one of the books himself in that - the passage of time as the book cuts to different POV shouldn't be assumed to always be going forward. They might be telling a story from a different point in time. It is just a means to speed up things a little and tell an overall story. 

I'm sure if we apply the same degree of nitpicking, we can make the books out to be pretty crappy as well.

Be nice to know at least how she recovered from those stomach wounds that opened up during her ridiculous escape from Termiwaif. Or, you know, how she managed to kill, cut up, and bake two full-grown men in a castle full of people without someone noticing. Or why she can now change faces, even though last time she did it she ended up blind. Or where she got the face from. Did she murder someone, or did she pocket a few faces before leaving the HoBaW?

If Arya can do those things in the show without any apparent risk, there is no reason for her not to go to King's Landing and murder Cersei. And if she does and is caught, it will seem like arbitrary 'the plot demands it' rather than it being a logical result of her skills and actions.

[Littlefingerbanger]

3 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Be nice to know at least how she recovered from those stomach wounds that opened up during her ridiculous escape from Termiwaif. Or, you know, how she managed to kill, cut up, and bake two full-grown men in a castle full of people without someone noticing. Or why she can now change faces, even though last time she did it she ended up blind. Or where she got the face from. Did she murder someone, or did she pocket a few faces before leaving the HoBaW?

If Arya can do those things in the show without any apparent risk, there is no reason for her not to go to King's Landing and murder Cersei. And if she does and is caught, it will seem like arbitrary 'the plot demands it' rather than it being a logical result of her skills and actions.

You can question the logistics, co-incidence or the manhours it would take to accomplish any of the things ever mentioned in the books or in the show. 

Like you know, Catelyn is found conveniently by BWB (who seemingly are the only bunch who can bring a dead back to the life). Or you know how Arya a girl of 9 in the books when it begins has the sense and presence of mind to go and do any of the things she does in the books,  Or you know how they change faces to begin with . Like do they super glue it? or is it like those face change situation in Mission Impossible? if it is a real face, would it not decompose? or do they put some preservatives?  Are we to just believe that they can just change faces? Like, even in this day and age with the advancement of medical sciences and plastic surgeries, you probably could tell a fake face. would be nice to know that too you know. 

Not saying that it wasn't a little too convenient that Arya did that. 

All I am saying is if you ask some of the similar questions on logistics and convenience to the plots in the books as well, I'm sure you could make it out to be just as absurd too. What I see in the forum from the book fans is that level of scrutiny just being applied to the show. Double standards much? 

[LulaMae Barnes]

Anyway - I am expecting GRRM to soon publish another teaser chapter from TWOW - he has a wide range of (botched) characters to choose from: Jaime, Brienne, Jon, Davos, Samwell, Bran, Daenerys, Barristan, Cersei, or even more from Tyrion, the Greyjoys, Arya, Sansa, Arianne&Areo....

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

On 6/28/2016 at 0:06 AM, Forlong the Fat said:

 

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

1 hour ago, Littlefingerbanger said:

You can question the logistics, co-incidence or the manhours it would take to accomplish any of the things ever mentioned in the books or in the show. 

Like you know, Catelyn is found conveniently by BWB (who seemingly are the only bunch who can bring a dead back to the life). Or you know how Arya a girl of 9 in the books when it begins has the sense and presence of mind to go and do any of the things she does in the books,  Or you know how they change faces to begin with . Like do they super glue it? or is it like those face change situation in Mission Impossible? if it is a real face, would it not decompose? or do they put some preservatives?  Are we to just believe that they can just change faces? Like, even in this day and age with the advancement of medical sciences and plastic surgeries, you probably could tell a fake face. would be nice to know that too you know. 

Not saying that it wasn't a little too convenient that Arya did that. 

All I am saying is if you ask some of the similar questions on logistics and convenience to the plots in the books as well, I'm sure you could make it out to be just as absurd too. What I see in the forum from the book fans is that level of scrutiny just being applied to the show. Double standards much? 

My theory has always been that the Bwb were finally giving up their outlaw days and we're enroute to pledge to Robb. 

And all the stuff about faces I'm pretty sure magic is involved in all of the above. With high level FM having access to a myriad of glamours when they go on a mission.

I would even say the faces like Arya has applied in book has magic around it. Something they've been doing for centuries if not more.

Given often in the story death feeds magic. It is not out from left field.

Also as to the 9 year old comment. There are places in the world child soldiers are trained. Mentality and morals don't come from your age but your upbringing and your circumstances.

 

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

It's all about suspension of disbelief.

If Arya had just slit Walders throat more acceptable then the whole pie baking event.

If instead of the pointless Jaime scene we'd gotten a scene with the woman aeya impersonated  having a scene with staff and one going you have blood on your neck. Quick wipe and a shrug..

See. You set the tone and explain something without beating it over their heads.

The audience members are curious about the above scene and we don't deal with Frey pie logistics

[PirateVergo]

This is the most sexist show on TV.

Every man is incompetent and get himself killed or is too dumb and has to rely on a woman to do the thinking for him. (Hi Jon and Jaime).

Either that or he plays second fiddle while the Woman lead (Varys,Tyrion,Theon) 

Women are the ones ruling everywhere and 90% of the game players still in the race are women (Olenna,Ellaria,Dany,Cersei,Sansa)

For a show supposed to take place in a period similar to the middle ages it's quite funny since a Woman would never get to rule no matter the circumstances in a such era.

[Littlefingerbanger]

37 minutes ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

My theory has always been that the Bwb were finally giving up their outlaw days and we're enroute to pledge to Robb. 

And all the stuff about faces I'm pretty sure magic is involved in all of the above. With high level FM having access to a myriad of glamours when they go on a mission.

I would even say the faces like Arya has applied in book has magic around it. Something they've been doing for centuries if not more.

Given often in the story death feeds magic. It is not out from left field.

Also as to the 9 year old comment. There are places in the world child soldiers are trained. Mentality and morals don't come from your age but your upbringing and your circumstances.

 

so the answer is magic, co-incidence and that's just the way it is there? 

I was just asking random questions that you would ask in real life just to point out the absurdities in some of posts on this forum against the show btw. I enjoy the show and the books just as much. Just showing how nonsensical it would be If we were to to start questioning the logistics of each and every scene (books or the show)

[A wilding]

6 hours ago, Littlefingerbanger said:

Like you know, Catelyn is found conveniently by BWB (who seemingly are the only bunch who can bring a dead back to the life).

That is a poor example for your purpose, because the BwB were probably specifically looking for Catelyn. UnBeric had sworn on his honour as a knight that he would reunite Catelyn and Arya. That is why he demanded that Thoros raise Catelyn and why he did it himself when Thoros refused.

One of the things that make the books so readable is the complexity and depth of the plot, even after careful re-reads it is easy to miss some nuances. A TV show simply can't do this, and so has to go for image, atmosphere and spectacle instead.

 

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

5 hours ago, Littlefingerbanger said:

so the answer is magic, co-incidence and that's just the way it is there? 

I was just asking random questions that you would ask in real life just to point out the absurdities in some of posts on this forum against the show btw. I enjoy the show and the books just as much. Just showing how nonsensical it would be If we were to to start questioning the logistics of each and every scene (books or the show)

It's called suspension of disbelief like I said in my second post.

The idea that Arya found or stole a face, killed the two walder sons, carved them up and put bits in a pie and baked it then served it and killed Walder all while inside a castle filled with Freys and bannermen and all their men is past the usual realm of suspension.

A scene without the pie would have been better. She didn't even really need a face as no one knows what she looks like. In book and show men that knew her pre Neds death don't recognize her after.

Never mind though the wounds she had last time we saw her.

Yes there are such moments in all things fantasy but there's still a certain amount that can cause criticism.

A better moment would have been a scene of Frey servants getting ready and Arya walking up with her new face on with someone pointing out some blood on her.

She shrugs and wipes it away.

Audience wonders what is going on .

Next scene is arya in disguise killing Walder in some fashion sans pie.

Reveals herself and we go oohh that's why she had blood on her and we avoid the logistic of Frey pie

[Brandon Martell]

why are a lot of people calling Sansa 'Sandra'?

[CalvoHobbo]

14 minutes ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

It's called suspension of disbelief like I said in my second post.

The idea that Arya found or stole a face, killed the two walder sons, carved them up and put bits in a pie and baked it then served it and killed Walder all while inside a castle filled with Freys and bannermen and all their men is past the usual realm of suspension.

A scene without the pie would have been better. She didn't even really need a face as no one knows what she looks like. In book and show men that knew her pre Neds death don't recognize her after.

Never mind though the wounds she had last time we saw her.

Yes there are such moments in all things fantasy but there's still a certain amount that can cause criticism.

A better moment would have been a scene of Frey servants getting ready and Arya walking up with her new face on with someone pointing out some blood on her.

She shrugs and wipes it away.

Audience wonders what is going on .

Next scene is arya in disguise killing Walder in some fashion sans pie.

Reveals herself and we go oohh that's why she had blood on her and we avoid the logistic of Frey pie

That scene was perfect. One of the best of the season. It didn't need explanation. It was pure pathos and a really nice way to give a throw back to the book readers. we don't need to know that Arya was inside the castle, because she didn't need to be for this to work. Walder said he was expecting his sons to be back by noon. They could have been anywhere, maybe even in a place with a cook known for making some hot pies. 

[CalvoHobbo]

7 minutes ago, Brandon Martell said:

why are a lot of people calling Sansa 'Sandra'?

lol! i was thinking that too. "D" is next to "s" on MY keepboard, but "r" isn't. maybe it's an autocorrect thing? 

[Nami]

4 minutes ago, CalvoHobbo said:

lol! i was thinking that too. "D" is next to "s" on MY keepboard, but "r" isn't. maybe it's an autocorrect thing? 

Lyanna Mormont said Lady Sandra when meeting with Jon and Sandra.

[CalvoHobbo]

Just now, Nami said:

Lyanna Mormont said Lady Sandra when meeting with Jon and Sandra.

OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH ok thanks!

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

9 minutes ago, CalvoHobbo said:

That scene was perfect. One of the best of the season. It didn't need explanation. It was pure pathos and a really nice way to give a throw back to the book readers. we don't need to know that Arya was inside the castle, because she didn't need to be for this to work. Walder said he was expecting his sons to be back by noon. They could have been anywhere, maybe even in a place with a cook known for making some hot pies. 

There it is folks the problem with most current media..

It's the emotional impact that matters not the story.

Never mind a good story can have the emotional impact without giant suspension of disbelief.

[CalvoHobbo]

23 minutes ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

There it is folks the problem with most current media..

It's the emotional impact that matters not the story.

Never mind a good story can have the emotional impact without giant suspension of disbelief.

No, I disagree with you. I have read all of the books. I understand that in the books if Arya assassinates old Walder, the plot will likely be carefully planned and revealed to the reader. But as I pointed out, there is plenty of room for what she did to make sense. She could have found Hot Pie,and talked him into doing this. She very conceivably could have killed each of the Walders the same way she killed Meryn Trant, by luring them and murdering them. Then chopped them up and gave them to Hot pie. Actually, she wouldn't even have to have him do it, she could have just asked him for the dough. Then she goes into the castle and serves the pie. Why do we the viewer need to see all of that just so a certain segment of the audience could say "oh, ok, now I see how and why exactly that played out"? Sometimes the surprise is better than revealing the method every step of the way. 

What reason do we read books or watch film at all other than to feel emotionally about the content? I think you would be hard pressed to find anything ever written among the literary classics that does not still appeal at some level to an emotional connection to the reader no matter how subtle the emotion is or the detailed the story lines get. In my opinion, the revenge WAS good story telling. It brought a plot to a full circle close that has been festering in the minds of most people sympathetic to the Starks since the Red Wedding. I think the way you outlined it would have been awesome too, but I personally like the way it went better. 

[Maid So Fair]

Ooooh shiny... wait, WTF did I just watch?

• I guess no one thought Cersei killing off a sparrow was a cause for concern? They still expect her to go quietly? WTF?
• So the plan was for Loras to join the Faith temporarily and fight on their behalf in Cersei's trial? Am I understanding this correctly? But wasn't a trial by combat outlawed by TomTom? I'm so confused. 
• Why in the seven hells did Marg ever think this was a good plan? And didn't she send Olenna out of town to do some plotting? Guess she never got around to it (alliance with the Martells seems to have been their idea)
• Where's the rest of the KG? Did Robert kill the all (not the case as they show up later)? The Kings power is the function of the plot.
• Why is Lancel pursuing a random street urchin? He's just been sent to fetch Cersei against her will, which he intends to do very publicly. I thought he was worried she would find out but that makes no sense. Why has Lancel abandoned his mission?
• How did Cersei manage to capture and imprison the septa without anybody noticing? Wasn't she following Marg 24/7?
• Sandra being sorry sure makes up for the death of thousands! Not even an attempt at an explanation either. 
• Good on you Davos for remembering Shireen. Too little, too late, much? Can anybody explain why this scene didn't happen at the beginning of the season? Mel has done literally nothing since Jon got resurrected. At the latest, this should have taken place after he confronted her about it back in E3(4?).
• So LF is still a dreamer. Who would have thought. Also alive.
• Jon who has done FA all season is declared the KITN? Why? Especially with Sandra sitting right next to him.
• Late Lord Manderly? Fuck me with a bloody spear, seriously. Couldn't he at least have shown up with the Vale army?
• So Emilia finally gets two intimate scenes with an opportunity to emote and she's still directed to deadpan? FFS
• Dany is in the great game now? What has she been doing the last 5 seasons? Working on her embroidery skills? If I was Dany I'd sack Tyrion for this patronising BS alone.
• Why is Tyrion getting rewarded? He's done nothing but screw up since he showed up in Meereen and if it wasn't for Dany with an army ex machina she would have come back to a heap of ashes.
• Varys must have been getting really pissed off about LF breaking all the teleportation records. To Dorne and back in less time than it took Sam to travel from Horn Hill to Oldtown.
• So - the Dornish plot really went nowhere. They killed a crown princess and no one cared. Having already declared war on the Lannisters (and done nothing about it), they are only now seeking allies? As for Varys I'm not sure what's worse - him converting them to Dany Stans offscren or them not bothering to contact Dany all this time. And why did Doran have to die again? 
• Cersei is the Queen now? After being relegate to the gallery last we saw her? Where does this new found power come from? She has no claim, no allies, no army and public relations rating below the freezing point.

 

 

[Valetudo]

The Arya scene was just there for shock and emotional manipulation.

This is supposed to be a big moment for her, avenging the death of her mother and brother, but it came out of nowhere. She just teleports here and kills Walder like it's the easiest thing in the world, and she'll surely reappear somewhere else in the next episode without facing any consequences from her actions.

This is just bad storytelling. Of course, in a vacuum, the scene works well and is enjoyable for the audience, but that's not enough to be a good story.

Following this scene logic, what prevents Arya to teleport to King's Landing next episode and kill Cersei and Gregor? Hell, make her go beyond the wall and kill the Night King while you're at it. It will feel good all the same and I'm sure some people will be able to hand wave it like they hand wave the present scene. Would that make sense though?

Arya has been on this revenge path since season 2. She spent the last two seasons in Bravos training to become an assassin for this purpose. But all we see of the crucial moment is the kill itself.

Instead of two entire seasons where she only wiped floors and got beaten with a stick, why didn't they compressed that and made her go back to the riverlands sooner? We all know why: so it would be more shocking. But for me it really just turns it more boring. 

This is like if the Kill Bill movies where just a mega training montage of Uma doing push ups and sword training and then she randomly finds Bill and cut his head in the last scene.

Or like if Ocean's 11 movie was just them training to pick locks and dodge laser beams (you know, your typical "bank robber skill, lol) and then in the next scene they'reinside the safe.

 

[rayarts]

Maybe I am most frustrated about so many people JUST ENJOYING THIS CRAP and giving those who see the mistakes a hard time. Good for you, if you do not need logical writing and stuff actually happening onscreen (I drop my favourite Game Offscreen Thrones once again), but pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaase leave us, who actually look for some logic in all this mess, be. 

And guys, have you seen the reaction videos on youtube? E.g. at Burlington Bar? I was sickened  people cheering when hundreds go up in the explosion (most innocent), because what? Didn't Carol bring the Faith Militant onto herself??? And they ffs cheered, when Tommen jumped? WHUT??? Because a naive, poor boy jumping from a window after his whole world is destroyed is so freaking entertaining??? Or because you hate the Lannisters? Wait, didn't you just cheer FOR Cersei? And then when the Septa was tortured, they cheered again!! WTF?! This was a sickening scene (costing us precious screnetime, no less) - again, remember, how Cersei brought that upon herself??? And now what??? In the reactions of folks I can actually see, how humans can be so stupid as to follow ridiculous and evil leaders in real life... THEY TOTALLY LOST THEIR MARBLES.