[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion - one last time ;o)

[Lord Freypie]

Sorry for OOT but here's what Bujold said about Tyrion being inspired from Miles Vorkosigan : I think that Martin and I were probably stealing from the same source. I believe that Game of Thrones is explicitly somewhat inspired by Plantagenet history and Miles is sort of ironically inspired by it. So I think it’s a case of similar sources, in this case.

Looks like clear IP stealing.

 

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Arya being stabbed doesn't make any sense. Many characters from the show died from being stabbed in a belly, but Arya survived and continued running and fighting somehow. It would be fine for some cheap action movie, but not for GOT. "Anyone can be killed" (c) Arya

Arya's travel from Bravos to Riverrun has been cut out completely. She traveled around Rivverlands the whole seasons 2-4 and now she's back in less than one episode without any adventures. It doesn't make any sense.

[Nami]

The faceless man plot was so badly concluded. I mean, he says to her "now you're no one", and it's supposed to mean something to us but it's not clear what he meant and we can only theorize on it

Whoever came up with the terminator chase scene should have had his/her idea shot down at once because it doesn't fit with GOT and it was just silly. I was actually embarrassed by it and for several minutes I was like "what the hell am I watching?" it was out of place like that. Possibly one of the worst scenes in this series, and there a lot of them.

I feel like this series just ride the the masterpiece work done by the first season and even the second season, because there is no doubt the quality of the writing right now is just average to below average.

But who cares really, this became such a pop culture fenomenon, almost like a cult following that people just take what they can get...including scenes of fingering the ass and the characters actually saying "what should we talk about now?"

[Cron]

On 7/26/2016 at 7:06 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Arya being stabbed doesn't make any sense. Many characters from the show died from being stabbed in a belly, but Arya survived and continued running and fighting somehow. It would be fine for some cheap action movie, but not for GOT. "Anyone can be killed" (c) Arya

Arya's travel from Bravos to Riverrun has been cut out completely. She traveled around Rivverlands the whole seasons 2-4 and now she's back in less than one episode without any adventures. It doesn't make any sense.

HARRR!!!!

Yeah, I've had some similar thoughts.

Tywin died from a crossbow bolt in the same general area, pretty much immediately, as far as I know (which is unrealistic in and of itself. They say that abdomen wounds are a long, terrible, painful way to die, but NOT instantaneous by any means)

Multiple stab wounds like Arya had would have torn up her guts something fierce (there's a lot of innards packed real tight in that area, twisting, turning intestines, stomach and such).  You DON'T "fix" that just by sewing up the outer skin, no way.

Bottom line:  Unless Lady Crane had some POWERFUL magic we don't know about, Arya should be dead, no question about it at all.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

12 hours ago, Cron said:

Bottom line:  Unless Lady Crane had some POWERFUL magic we don't know about, Arya should be dead, no question about it at all.

That's what I thought or that it wasn't real Arya after all. But apparently it was just a bad writing.

[Le Cygne]

That last moment with Jaqen made no sense, either. You are no one. I'm going home. He smiles, oh, OK.

[Cron]

19 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

That's what I thought or that it wasn't real Arya after all. But apparently it was just a bad writing.

So far, yeah.  If they leave it as it is, and the series ends without it ever being addressed or explained further, then yeah, I have to agree, just bad writing.  Great for dramatic effect, but makes little to no real sense.

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

That last moment with Jaqen made no sense, either. You are no one. I'm going home. He smiles, oh, OK.

Yeah, I hear you.  On its face, without further explanation, that was odd.

In order to reconcile it with a LOT of prior information we were given, we've got to make assumptions.  I think we've got to assume that Jaqen's real goal all along was to make Arya realize she's NOT "No One," and to realize that her true place was as Arya Stark in Westeros.

Is it possible? Sure, but it's a lot to infer just from Jaqen's smile, especially when it's SO contrary to everything else we were told was going on..

[Le Cygne]

We also have to infer why the waif hated Arya so much. The only thing I can come up with is she was jealous that Jaqen liked her better.

So the Waif as Jan Brady: Arya, Arya, Arya!

[Nami]

17 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

We also have to infer why the waif hated Arya so much. The only thing I can come up with is she was jealous that Jaqen liked her better.

So the Waif as Jan Brady: Arya, Arya, Arya!

The writers love to create this petty hate between female characters.

[Cron]

On 7/29/2016 at 1:18 AM, Le Cygne said:

We also have to infer why the waif hated Arya so much. The only thing I can come up with is she was jealous that Jaqen liked her better.

So the Waif as Jan Brady: Arya, Arya, Arya!

Why DOES Waif hate Arya so much?

This is an interesting question that I have thought some about too, and I think you're right that the core of the issue is jealousy.

You could be right about the fact that Waif was jealous that Jaqen liked Arya better, but if so I think that was only part of it.  I got the impression Waif is jealous of Arya's background as a noble, high born girl, probably with all the wealth that came with it, as well as Arya's good family which she (Arya) loves..

Can't recall if this happened in the books (been 5 years since I last read them) but in the show, while playing the Game of Faces (I believe), Waif claims to give her background story, and of course I believe it's partly true, and partly lies (cuz that's the purpose of the Game of Faces, to learn to detect lies in others, and learn to be a superb liar yourself, and one of the best ways to tell convincing lies is to mix truth in with the lies, which Arya helself does while playing the Game of Faces as well).  I found Waif's claimed history interesting.  I seem to recall she CLAIMED she was highborn in Westeros, but unlike Arya's idyllic upbringing in a happy, loving family, Waif's was dark and twisted, as I recall.

In sum, I believe Waif was jealous of Arya b/c of her "silver spoon" background and upbringing, and I have a feeling the dark and twisted parts of Waif's story were basically true, but I HIGHLY doubt that it was true she was a noble, high born girl in Westeros.

(I'll be rewatching Season 6 again soon, I'm in a rewatch project and about to finish Season 4.  I'm going to try to pay very close attention to what Waif claims her background is when I get to that part)

[Le Cygne]

But Arya has been through hell, both parents murdered, siblings probably dead, tries but never gets back to Jon Snow, loses every friend, now alone with a cult of assassins, training to be no one, because it hurts too much to be someone. And the point is, we should not have to infer, right? For the waif to be this hell bent on inflicting pan and death on Arya, she should express those reasons.

[Davros Seaworth]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

But Arya has been through hell, both parents murdered, siblings probably dead, tries but never gets back to Jon Snow, loses every friend, now alone with a cult of assassins, training to be no one, because it hurts too much to be someone. And the point is, we should not have to infer, right? For the waif to be this hell bent on inflicting pan and death on Arya, she should express those reasons.

The (show) Waif is not a character, do not try to understand her. She behaves as the plot demands and the plot demands she hates Arya therefore she does, just as the plot demands Arya survive a fatal wound therefore she does.

[Le Cygne]

Right, I know. I'm saying, that's my criticism of the show. That they set her up as her adversary and did not reveal her motivations. I'm saying, for us to "infer" is to do their job for them, they are supposed to show us these things.

[Davros Seaworth]

13 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Right, I know. I'm saying, that's my criticism of the show. That they set her up as her adversary and did not reveal her motivations. I'm saying, for us to "infer" is to do their job for them, they are supposed to show us these things.

I agree, didn't mean to seem as if I was not.

[Le Cygne]

Oh, that's cool, I understood. Also you are right, it's better not to think of these things.

[Le Cygne]

Looked it up, just to remember, seems like the waif was highborn. (Of course, the story was very different in that she didn't hate Arya.) The waif said she lied about the lie. But the father was wealthy.

Quote

"I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father’s heir,” the waif replied. “My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father’s wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father’s wife received the gift."

Arya considered her warily, "Is that true?"

"There is truth in it."

"And lies as well?"

"There is an untruth, and an exaggeration."

She had been watching the waif's face the whole time she told her story, but the other girl had shown her no signs. "The Many-Faced God took two-thirds of your father’s wealth, not all."

"Just so. That was my exaggeration."

 

[Ser Morbid]

On 6/28/2016 at 3:27 PM, The Knight in Motley said:

Wow, actual consequences?  I don't know if you can do that..the vast majority of the major players would be dead.

The Sand Snakes are butched by Hotah, even with a knife in his back.

Davos flat out murders the Red Woman in Episode 1, Jon has to struggle with executing him for murder or not, all the while dodging Nights Watch who want to burn his body before he becomes a WW.  He still comes back to life (reasons) without a haircut: Therefore He won't have a manbun.

The northern lords instantly rally around Sansa, because they remember.  They easily take a mostly empty Winterfell, because Ramsey is a Psychopath and garners zero loyalty.

Blackfish dies on screen.

A bloated, infested body of a young westorosi girl whose been stabbed to death washes up on a pier in Braavos, and is taken to the house of B/W.

Littlefinger gets thrown out the moondoor for lying to Sweetrobin and Royce about some bullshit Bolton kidnapping and losing Sansa. Gilly is instantly accepted into the Citadel so they can study her incredible slow-growing child.

Sam gets arrested for theft and hung while his father looks on.

The Tyrell's follow through with their military coup, and spare the High Sparrow so Cersei will still go to trial.  While they are at it, they sacrifice the 20 good men it would take to butcher Ser Gregor the Zombie no one loves.

Cersei and Pycelle sneak out, and then...Kings Landing explodes and burns to the ground when a drunk watchmen stumbles into a warehouse full of wildfire.

 

You forgot to mention Roose Bolton doesn't get killed by Ramsay because he is actually smart and have control over his little bastard - if he SOMEHOW gets murdered by him Ramsay gets killed immidietly afterwards by nearby onwatchers.

[Payne by name]

Again, it's great to have this thread.

As I've said in the episode 9 thread, I've been digesting all six seasons over the last couple of months and I have enjoyed the show. I thought the beginning was going to be a real slog with having to remember that Barthar of Darthar was going to marry Hubej from Lubej but thankfully it eased me into the show.

One of my favourite box set shows, that I watched as it came out, was Spartacus and I always compared GoT unfavourably to Spartacus. After six seasons I have to say that I still think Spartacus is better. It had a definable end and they didn't shy away from the big battles that I felt GoT did before it realised that they could be sold as spectacle.

As the end of season six got closer, I did begin to worry how I'd cope as I don't have Sky and how would I get my fix. But after peaking (in my mind) with Hardhome, season 6 began to lose me a little. The female agenda was becoming ever more present and some of the deaths just sat really uncomfortable.

I've not read the books, so I can't comment on how they compare to them but I felt after episode 9 there was even more really convenient 'reasons' just to give the drooling audience their shocks but without an explanation or recognition for the audience that was invested in these characters.

I wish they'd do more with the smaller characters like the giant or Hodor. Yes, his story was nice and he had a strong death but he was treated as insignificant up to that point. Likewise, the giant was wasted in episode 9.

As for this episode, letting the red witch off the hook for burning Stannis' daughter was a cause of real annoyance. That was a horrible scene and that bitch needed to pay. Likewise the jumping around of Ayra was just ridiculous and an example of putting something nonsensical in to look cool. How she got all the way to the North in such a short space of time and then killed the two brothers and cooked them up and then used the tedious Mission Impossible face mask trick (that somehow also manages to conceal body shape) was flat out idiotic.

She did all that but Brianne couldn't make it back to the battle of the bastards!

I concede that the scene with the wildfire and destruction of the sept was really well done but by the end of the show, I just didn't feel anything. Dany is standing on the ship with Varys (the guy who paid Jora to spy on her and she was cross with Jora but not his 'master'?), Cercei is on her throne and the annoying, miserable Sansa is up in the North ready to be a willing player in some devious, lying nonsense.

And the male equivalent of Dany in Jon Snow, is still being creatively hobbled to ensure that his flame doesn't burn as bright as the stronger female leads. Yes, I'll watch the next two seasons but I wasn't left with a pressing hole that needed to urgently be filled.

The thing with GoT that put me off watching it for so long was that it was so popular. It worked against it that so many sheep (I know that accusation is unfair particularly when I lapped it up) were losing their shit about it and I thought that it meant it probably was quite empty and vacuous. Hence when I started it really surprised and impressed me. The writing was good, the characters were interesting and the production well put together. Maybe the masses could be right and all this time I was wrong but as the show has gone on I've felt, as others have said, that's it descended in a spectacle show.

Apologies in advance if I've misspelt names or attributed actions or events to the wrong people.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

12 hours ago, Payne by name said:

Again, it's great to have this thread.

As I've said in the episode 9 thread, I've been digesting all six seasons over the last couple of months and I have enjoyed the show. I thought the beginning was going to be a real slog with having to remember that Barthar of Darthar was going to marry Hubej from Lubej but thankfully it eased me into the show.

One of my favourite box set shows, that I watched as it came out, was Spartacus and I always compared GoT unfavourably to Spartacus. After six seasons I have to say that I still think Spartacus is better. It had a definable end and they didn't shy away from the big battles that I felt GoT did before it realised that they could be sold as spectacle.

As the end of season six got closer, I did begin to worry how I'd cope as I don't have Sky and how would I get my fix. But after peaking (in my mind) with Hardhome, season 6 began to lose me a little. The female agenda was becoming ever more present and some of the deaths just sat really uncomfortable.

I've not read the books, so I can't comment on how they compare to them but I felt after episode 9 there was even more really convenient 'reasons' just to give the drooling audience their shocks but without an explanation or recognition for the audience that was invested in these characters.

I wish they'd do more with the smaller characters like the giant or Hodor. Yes, his story was nice and he had a strong death but he was treated as insignificant up to that point. Likewise, the giant was wasted in episode 9.

As for this episode, letting the red witch off the hook for burning Stannis' daughter was a cause of real annoyance. That was a horrible scene and that bitch needed to pay. Likewise the jumping around of Ayra was just ridiculous and an example of putting something nonsensical in to look cool. How she got all the way to the North in such a short space of time and then killed the two brothers and cooked them up and then used the tedious Mission Impossible face mask trick (that somehow also manages to conceal body shape) was flat out idiotic.

She did all that but Brianne couldn't make it back to the battle of the bastards!

 

Thanks for your insight. I've been commenting on how ridiculous was Arya's ending arc of s6 for months, in the general Rant Thread and other ones, especially when she was perfectly jumping and running after being stabbed (although there could be a "magical" explanation to that), but the Frey Pie thing has caused a lot of controversy. I find it ridiculous that we only get the Walder Frey scene as much shocking as it can be fed to the audience, just because it feels it is needed in that moment, but they don't pay attention to the how she made it, how she went there, how did she disguise as a servant, killed the guys, quartered them without no one noticing it, cooked them disguised again and then returned to kill Walder. That's an example of something that was not necessary.

Instead, they could have shown us how she arrived there (of course, then we wouldn't have had the shocking moment of seeing Arya as another girl) or just the scene killing Walder. Frey Pie thing was just the icing of the cake. And I love Arya and wanted him to die. But this way, just like s5's finae with MT (making her kill him because apart from Syrio's death he was a pedohpile, and with all the blood involved, etc). that's too out of character. But I'd say the Frey Pie is just too much. And you know when you see this that it's just for shocking value. Except for the fact that it doesn't even makes sense on its own. So what's the point of the shocking value then?

Quote

I concede that the scene with the wildfire and destruction of the sept was really well done but by the end of the show, I just didn't feel anything. Dany is standing on the ship with Varys (the guy who paid Jora to spy on her and she was cross with Jora but not his 'master'?), Cercei is on her throne and the annoying, miserable Sansa is up in the North ready to be a willing player in some devious, lying nonsense.

And the male equivalent of Dany in Jon Snow, is still being creatively hobbled to ensure that his flame doesn't burn as bright as the stronger female leads. Yes, I'll watch the next two seasons but I wasn't left with a pressing hole that needed to urgently be filled.

The thing with GoT that put me off watching it for so long was that it was so popular. It worked against it that so many sheep (I know that accusation is unfair particularly when I lapped it up) were losing their shit about it and I thought that it meant it probably was quite empty and vacuous. Hence when I started it really surprised and impressed me. The writing was good, the characters were interesting and the production well put together. Maybe the masses could be right and all this time I was wrong but as the show has gone on I've felt, as others have said, that's it descended in a spectacle show.

Apologies in advance if I've misspelt names or attributed actions or events to the wrong people.

Sadly, it's what it is now. I can still enjoy the arcs of certain characters, but it's not the same as it used to be.