[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion - one last time ;o)

[HellasLEAF]

Gotta have to agree on Arya chopping up and stuffing them into pies being, well.  Disgusting.  

Unless it's only small parts and the rest are out back somewhere.  You know.  Enough to make the pies.  To make her point.

Pretty gruesome..

[adiman83]

2 minutes ago, Nami said:

I was watching some video reactions on youtube, and all of them showed people very pleased and excited over Arya's vengeance/psychopathy and it's sad how most people do not seem to grasp the downfall of this character. It's sad what she became.
She is completely messed up to the point of killing men, cutting them up and making a pie with their meat. Is this vengeance? Is this supposed to be "cool" and "badass"? 
This show had some depth and it's sad how it became just a shock value-badassness-vengeance-women on top-fuck logic fest

I think the downfall is the entire point of her storyline and the reason why Jaquen said she has become "no one": The way I see it, she's not Arya Stark anymore. Now she's a Faceless Man.

Anyway ... the reactions to Walder's death have more to do with poetic justice. Basically many are glad that Walder Frey got what was coming to him. 

[Jarl Halstein]

18 hours ago, LulaMae Barnes said:

ooooh, I like your "when the sun rises in the west..." theory! I have never thought of that.

Though most people find Quentyn's storyline boring - I must admit I would have liked some of Quentyn's "adventure".

Of course we won't get to see the 3 betrayals in the show - but I do fear they will somehow morph/fuse Daarios story with the events happening in book-Astapor: when Dany leaves Astapor she sets up a council to rule the city and the newly freed slaves but a butcher then overthrows and kills that council, crowns himself king and starts his reign of terror (maybe related to show-Cersei?)....

Show-Daario is left behind to help setting up something similar to that council - so the freed slaves in Meereen can somehow vote their new leaders....WHAT IF...Daario now - after being unceremoniously ditched by his beloved girlfriend - decides he wants some power for himself?

Well, that could happen in GoT - but I rather image we will never see Jorah, Daario and Meereen ever again....

Thank you, but if I remember correctly that is actually mentioned in A Dance With Dragons - Daenerys realizes that "when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" refers to Quentyn Martell dying in Meereen.

I hope Daario won't take power, he doesn't seem like the type who would be interested in that at all. Ever since he was played by the first actor he has been about "fighting for beauty" and loving Daenerys. No sinister motivations. I can imagine him extending his motivation to sleeping with other beautiful women now that Dany is gone and he's the acting ruler - but then, who wouldn't. So he'll have his hands full.

He should know that if he declares himself king he will have to face dragons, and also furious Dany supporters, who have seen the virtual demigod Mhysa defeat all comers. It would be very unrealistic by the producers to make him betray Dany then.

 

As for seeing Jorah again - she could have made things a bit easier for him by giving him some gold before she sent him away to find a cure, eh? The guy did save her life three times - poisoned wine, Son of Harpy, Dothrakis.

[TimeforTravel]

1 minute ago, Jarl Halstein said:

Thank you, but if I remember correctly that is actually mentioned in A Dance With Dragons - Daenerys realizes that "when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" refers to Quentyn Martell dying in Meereen.

I hope Daario won't take power, he doesn't seem like the type who would be interested in that at all. Ever since he was played by the first actor he has been about "fighting for beauty" and loving Daenerys. No sinister motivations. I can imagine him extending his motivation to sleeping with other beautiful women now that Dany is gone and he's the acting ruler - but then, who wouldn't. So he'll have his hands full.

He should know that if he declares himself king he will have to face dragons, and also furious Dany supporters, who have seen the virtual demigod Mhysa defeat all comers. It would be very unrealistic by the producers to make him betray Dany then.

 

As for seeing Jorah again - she could have made things a bit easier for him by giving him some gold before she sent him away to find a cure, eh? The guy did save her life three times - poisoned wine, Son of Harpy, Dothrakis.

Some gold and some of the 9 million Dothraki at her disposal, yeah. But spoiled Princess just commands him to find a cure. A bit later and she lies with Dario again and forgot about Jorah. I'll be amazed if D&D decide to show Jorah again. Especially after their big clean-up fest in s06e10. D&D want to rush, rush, rush, rush .

[ummester]

6 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

And don't think I didn't notice your skirting around the historical and mythological influences to Tolkien's act of artistic creation. 

Yea, of course, I acknowledge that Tolkien, Star Wars, the Dark Crystal and other things I classify as high fantasy on a technical level have mythological influences - and, in many cases, those influences are low fantasy.

For instance Tolkien is influenced greatly by European mythology - elves and hobbits basically have the same origins as GRRMs White Walkers and Children of the Forrest. The Pagan European mythology is low fantasy, even though Tolkien used it in a high fantasy story and GRRM is using it in a low fantasy story.

Again, it's nothing to do with origins, how magical it is and so on - it's simply the degree that the world is distinct from Earth and the scope of the primary characters in the world.

6 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Likewise regarding your ideas of high vs low with Tolkien as a specific exemplar of the former, but that at least is a more interesting discussion. I distinguish between the two somewhere between the degree of magic, realization of thematic elements and overall scope of the narrative in a secondary world -but readily admit it might be a personal interpretation rather than what is generally accepted- and Martin meets all those for me just as Tolkien does. In Tolkien's case however, if I prescribed to rather romantic and dated ideals about nobility, as a concept and class; to the humble, earth-born struggle of the common [sic] man and the notion of Evil™ without nuance of moral ambiguity or redeeming quality, then yeah, I'd probably spit out something rather simplistic and deem it an epitome of high as well.

It is an interesting discussion - probably not the right thread but I find interesting discussions are organic and never occur when and how they should.

I used to have a similar understanding of the difference between high and low fantasy to your personal notion but then I read the definitions and found they could be distilled to something that can be applied distinctly to any narrative - which is far neater, IMO.

Regardless of how the definition is applied, I can't see how any one would think GRRMs world building is as imaginative as Tolkien's? Planetos is very derivative of Earth, whereas Middle Earth is not. GRRMs strength is in the complicated characterisations and interconnected plotting - not the world he has created.

[Tyrek Lannister]

28 minutes ago, HellasLEAF said:

Gotta have to agree on Arya chopping up and stuffing them into pies being, well.  Disgusting.  

Unless it's only small parts and the rest are out back somewhere.  You know.  Enough to make the pies.  To make her point.

Pretty gruesome..

Isn't it like, the point of no return for Arya? Removing faces, eviscerating people...really disgusting stuff. 

 

[teemo]

I still don't understand how she can have a different face when she isn't a FM ?

[Jarl Halstein]

2 minutes ago, ummester said:

For instance Tolkien is influenced greatly by European mythology - elves and hobbits basically have the same origins as GRRMs White Walkers and Children of the Forrest. The Pagan European mythology is low fantasy, even though Tolkien used it in a high fantasy story and GRRM is using it in a low fantasy story.

To be precise, it's Norse mythology. The gods in Tolkien's universe, as explained in Middle Earth, have a king, who can see the whole world from his throne. Odin is also king of the gods, and can see the whole world from his throne.

Elves and dwarves come from Norse mythology. That is the one mythology where elves are organized in a kingdom, Elfheim, just like they have kingdoms in Tolkien's books. (Elfheim was seen mostly in a story where they joined the nature gods in Vanaheim in a war against Asgard. They lost, and the Vaenir Frey and Freya became hostages among the Aesir. Soon everybody loved them and it was forgotten that they were supposed to be hostages.) In other mythologies elves are simply fairies, living like dainty forest creatures.

The orcs attacking Middle Earth from the south-east in a final war is like the giants attacking from the south in a final war. (The fire giants live in the south, and the fire giant Surt leads the giants in Ragnarok.)

Gandalf, Grey Elf, travels around disguised as merely an old man with a big hat. That is exactly like Odin, who traveled in the world of men dressed in grey with a big hat. Even Gandalf's name alludes to Norse mythology. (Remember elves were not a big thing before Tolkien's books.) He is also connected to birds, like Odin, who had a raven coat that could make him turn into a raven.

In Silmarillion Tolkien reveals that the world has a great world tree in the north and another in the south - much like Norse mythology has the world tree Yggdrasil.

....And of course, the name Middle Earth is Norse Mythology's name for the world of men.

As a side note Tolkien also includes another continent in Silmarillion, an island to the west of Middle Earth, far more advanced. They come as teachers to Middle Earth, but under Sauron's influence they turn into conquerors instead. Due to their vain plans a disaster occurs and the island sinks beneath the waves. Much like the highly advanced Atlantis sank between the waves due to a disaster caused by their hubris. So here Tolkien includes another European mythology, which was very popular before his books reshaped fantasy - the 18th century mythology where ancient advanced kingdoms in the mountains and on islands lived separate from the Stone Age barbarians, and communicated with each other through crystals that vibrated in sync across vast expanses. The kingdoms were Atlantis, Shangri-La, El Dorado, the cruel Lemuria, Atlantis' enemy the City of Mu by Africa's coast, the Underworld reached from a tunnel by the North Pole, Thule, Hyperborea, a city in the Alps, and so forth.

 

But I digress.

[ShadowLiberal]

11 hours ago, Graeham said:

Arya killing Walder Frey: I honestly don't understand why Arya is such a popular character in the show when her storyline and abilities are so inconsistent. Where did she get the serving girls' face from? Why did nobody notice her killing Walder's sons, let alone turning them into a pie? Why didn't she let Walder eat the pie before boasting about what it contained? Why was he alone in the feast room with not a single guard watching out for him - especially when he's well aware of how many enemies he has?

I agree, honestly, I'm very disappointed that Arya didn't get killed off this season. It would have been such a perfect ending to her story in Braavos if Jaqen had killed her when she got on the boat to return home, it would have shown how she was so in over her head the whole time, and made the plot actually make some sense there.

Arya's storyline has been going nowhere for ages, and she really should just be killed off (along with some other people like Sam & Gilly).

The only 2 people left on her list (Cersei and Ser Gregor) are people who Arya will NEVER be able to kill herself even with a ton of plot hole miracles like at the Twins. Cersei is WAY too heavily protected for Arya to ever kill, and it would be a horrible ending for Cersei to die by her hands. And little girl Arya is NEVER killing Ser Gregor, period.

 

Also, Lord Walder mentioned that Edmure Tully is back in his cells at the twins. Does Arya go to free her uncle after killing Lord Walder? Nope. There's no mention of him, he's just forgotten.

[Jarl Halstein]

39 minutes ago, ShadowLiberal said:

I agree, honestly, I'm very disappointed that Arya didn't get killed off this season. It would have been such a perfect ending to her story in Braavos if Jaqen had killed her when she got on the boat to return home, it would have shown how she was so in over her head the whole time, and made the plot actually make some sense there.

Arya's storyline has been going nowhere for ages, and she really should just be killed off (along with some other people like Sam & Gilly).

The only 2 people left on her list (Cersei and Ser Gregor) are people who Arya will NEVER be able to kill herself even with a ton of plot hole miracles like at the Twins. Cersei is WAY too heavily protected for Arya to ever kill, and it would be a horrible ending for Cersei to die by her hands. And little girl Arya is NEVER killing Ser Gregor, period.

 

Also, Lord Walder mentioned that Edmure Tully is back in his cells at the twins. Does Arya go to free her uncle after killing Lord Walder? Nope. There's no mention of him, he's just forgotten.

Seven hells! I think I'm critical, but then I read some other stuff. Arya's story going nowhere, you say? How about going to train assassination, which will then be put to good use as everyone knew it would? You may not like that, but it's certainly not nowhere. It WOULD have gone nowhere if she had been killed just when she was about to return to Westeros, as you wanted.

So she won't kill Cersei and Gregor, you say. So? She just killed the man who orchestrated the Red Wedding, and also killed his sons, a very satisfying scene for viewers who have been hoping for Lord Frey's death ever since his betrayal. Going nowhere, indeed. And her skills aren't labeled For List Use Only, she can kill other people too.

"Nope. There's no mention of him, he's just forgotten."

How evil of Arya. She does a major thing, but she doesn't talk about ANOTHER thing in the same scene, so she must be a selfish brat. Of course, she might talk about that other thing later in the story, perhaps in the very next scene with her, or she might even go to rescue her uncle in that scene. But that she didn't rescue Edmure and kill Frey simultaneously means she has "forgotten" him, right?

And if she doesn't rescue him at all? How dare she be so selfish! If she doesn't risk her life through every dangerous task within walking distance she is just an arrogant brat. Much like Spider-Man not preventing every bank robbery in New York, the lazy bastard.

[Elisabetta Duò]

17 hours ago, lujo said:

To the poor guy who went to defend what I said - sorry you got caught in the crossfire. To somebody who's read all the same stuff GRRM's read, ASOIAF reads more like a fan-fiction wiki than actual literature. And we're not talking homages here, we're talking... We're talking takign the main character of a series of books (for example the VorKosigan saga) contemporary to Martin, and putting him in his book with the entirety of his appeal taken from the person that originally came up with the character. Tyrion Lannister IS Miles VorKosigan, and Miles VorKosigan was both very conspicuous (unmistakeably so) and hot intelectual property at the time Martin just, well, stole him entirely. Do an homage, that's cool. But pick up somebody elses character at the height of the characters popularity and make him almost the main character - the only reason he didn't get sued, and lost, is because the woman who came up with character didn't even read Martin and it took him ages to become noticed (or rather it took the books in question ages to get noticed). Glen Cook did the grimdark better and Gene Wolfe did the complex so much more complex than Martin that it's completely puzzling that Marin has at any point been conisdered really complex.

Anyway what Martin liked to lift was not historical domain like Lovecrafts stuff. It was as if I right now wrote fanfiction about, IDK, Arya and in 10 years people who never read Martin considered me the inventor of Arya. Except way worse, because if someone stole, IDK, Arya, they could do more with her than Martin did (hell, Martin wrote more about her than ever got into the books, so even HE could). That's because his characters are essentially 1-2 note comic book caricatures (due in part to the structure of the work), but the stuff he stole from isn't necessarily as shallow. I do bet it sucks to be him, to know how little he himself has to do with his sucess. His just juggling other people's stuff and stock characters around a dungeons and dragons campaign map trying to get them in the right places so he can then write about historical battles.

Most of the stuff in the books is something like that, stock characters and watered down other people's intelectual property noone ever bothered to sue him over, and a lot of what isn't that is just shameless pandering. Really. There's a whole lineage of white haired and purple eyed scions of an ancient mystic people, there's kids with pet wolves, everything is color coded, there's dragons (because his publisher convinced to put them in, just like they get put in in any product that's remotely fantasy related for some reason), and just about anything that happens is lifted out of somewhere elese or even just a history book (when anything is actually happening, that is). And when the whole thing got made into a rather lousy comic book someone complained that "it didn't feel like Martin but like a collection of fantasy stereotypes". The comic book artist did have quite a bit of trouble with drawing people who didn't all look the same and like fashion models at the same time, but... the problem is that too much of the text consists of fantasy stereotypes.

I quite like Martin, despite everything, because I've read the same stuff he has, which is how I know him for what he is and I can even appreciate it. And there's a bit more to it all than just that, but his actual strengths get lost. But I've met a lot of fans of ASOIAF and for the vast majority of them their love and appreciation for Martin stemmed from the fact that they didn't read very much at all.

Just like with the Polish guy, except Martin stole from more sources. Seriously "The White Wolf" was the in-series nickname of the albino protagonist of Moorcocks novels where every single white haired fantasy character has been directly lifted from (unless there's now a generation stealing from the idiots who stole from Moorcock). And that character was meant as a parody, specifically of Conan but also of anti-Heroes. Trust Martin to put them both in as Bloodraven and Bittersteel , because hey, one man's joke character is another man's artwork -.- 

 

I didn't know the character you mentioned (I admit I had to look it up because I don't usually read fantasy and I don't read  science fiction at all - my fave genres are biographies, historical novels, crime books, theatrical pieces).

 I guess it would have been more apt if you had put it like 'people who appreciate him don't read a lot of sic-fi / fantasy': still arguable, I guess, but at least more correct... I assume you're not omniscent either, so maybe some people don't read science fiction, but you probably didn't read other stuff, even more relevant in the history of literature as Plato's or Oscar Wilde's or Jane Austen's or Dante's or whoever else's opera omnia and even talking only about the to the authors whose works directly influenced Martin, maybe you didn't catch some GoT / ASOIAF references because didn't read all Shakespeare's historical dramas, the biographies of the protagonists of the War of the Roses and of the following centuries till Elizabeth I etc.; certainly, judging by your comment, you didn't read the Odyssey (which GRRM read).  

IF this character you mentioned is truly as similar to Tyrion as you claim him to be and not just in the most 'apparent' details (the physical 'defects', the 'journey of the hero' theme, etc... these are very common) - I've seen here some people disagree with you - then both GRRMartin and Lois McMaster Bujold are thieves (as many before them).

Not only the 'i'm an outcast because of m physical-inability/appareance theme exists since always, since greek mythology and it apparead declined in houndreds ways in so many different literaly genres and the long lasting journey of the hero theme, with all its strings, is as old as the world, literally abused in the history of literature (english, chinese, italian, french, etc.) and it comes straight from the Odyssey; as the attitude and skills are concerned, Tyrion - as well as this other character you mentioned, if he's truly that similar to him as you claimed - is mainly inspired (when it comes to literary figures) by Omero's Odysseus and Omero wrote thousands years ago.

Odysseus was clever, smart, sharp tongued, not very handsome, good at finding deals, at times shamelessly lucky when facing deathly situations, forced to face long journey in foreign lands where he has to put up with all the stereotypes of the 'journey of the hero' theme (they weren't stereotypes at the time of course), he has to face Circe (the attractive woman who killed her own husband and used her charms as her weapon - clearly, the character Cersei was named for) and he outsmarts her; he is married to a woman everyone tries to marry while he's gone (his journey lasts years) and who proves to be smarter than her suitors; both Odysseus and Tyrion display false modesty, because if their enemies underestimate them, it's to their advantage; Odysseus blasphemed against the sea divinity Poseidon which put him in huge trouble for ten years (that's why he could be back home), as much as Tyrion's mouth is the main reason why he often finds himself in trouble and he almost drowns and even swallows black water (risking greyscale) because he opened his mouth to curse the stone men (and there is the Shrouded Lord to not make angry and be spared the Kiss): as Odysseus, Tyrion repents his big mouth more than once; Odysseus is even compared to a lion in Omero's Odyssey.. etc. etc. etc.

Now claiming this Author who wrote the science fiction saga you mentioned invented anything is laughable. None of them invented anything, so it's not like one Author can go like 'I took inspiration from all these novels and authors who wrote centuries before I was born but hey look, I did that 10 minutes before you did the same, hence I'm SO original and you're a thief '. 

Without considering that Tyrion is greatly inspired by historical figures, the main one being Richard III (paradygm of the 'misunderstood king' whose bravery and skills weren't recognized by historians of his time, depicted as a monster by the winners of the war, taking advantage of his disadvantaged physical appareance - he had scoliosis, he was short - also thanks to Shakespeare, who even turned him into an hunckback; wrongly accused by murder by poison; he lost his helmet in battle when hit in the head fighting bravely the day he died, the battle's name started with B, exactly as Tyrion during Blackwater, etc.).

Tyrion is 90% Odysseus + RIchard III and both of these characters were written ages before any science fiction novel and they literally inspired hundreds of characters and books.

As for the 10%, there is:

- a small touch of Philip V of France (Les Rois maudits by Maurice Druon): GRRM read the series and cited Druon's novels as an inspiration for ASOIAF: Philip V was tall and'popular' as a king, but still, Philip was born in Lyion and modern historians describe him as a man of considerable intelligence and the "wisest and politically most apt" of Philip IV's three sons as Tyrion is clearly the politically most apt out of Tywin's.

- the smallest touch of Henry VII Tudor (Richard III's enemy): Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage might be inspired by real history marriage between Henry VII - descendant of an illegitimate branch of House Lancaster, red rose (=Lannister) - and Elizabeth of York, white rose (= Stark), which ended the War of the Roses (Henry decided to adopt the Tudor rose = a combination of the white York + red Lancaster rose). The marriage was set only for political reasons, but in the long run, they grew to really love each other. Henry was known for being high-spirited and very intelligent (though not handsome) and he was a reformer (he saw to the restoration of political stability in England and to many administrative, economic and diplomatic initiatives praised by historians, leaving a safe throne, a solvent government and a prosperous and reasonably united country when he died). Elizabeth lived a very troublesome period in the years before her marriage because her brothers disappeared and their fate was unknown, as Bran and Rickon (people blamed Richard III for the murder of the princes, it's still unclear), she was red haired, known for being kind to her servants and she loved music and dancing;

(also Quasimodo for obvious reasons; Pierre Bezukov only because he was the mirror of the Author in the book and the character through whom the readers were supposed to live the story.)

 

[LulaMae Barnes]

9 hours ago, No One of Importance said:

*hanged. Sam is not a tapestry.

HA!

You just gotta love Gatehouse Ami and her mom

[LulaMae Barnes]

4 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Was anyone else reminded of that scene in the IT Crowd when Tommen took a skydive?

My flatmate immediately shouted "Reynholm Denholm"

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2016-06-27/was-this-game-of-thrones-scene-inspired-by-the-it-crowd

[JGP]

2 hours ago, ummester said:

It is an interesting discussion - probably not the right thread but I find interesting discussions are organic and never occur when and how they should.

I used to have a similar understanding of the difference between high and low fantasy to your personal notion but then I read the definitions and found they could be distilled to something that can be applied distinctly to any narrative - which is far neater, IMO.

Regardless of how the definition is applied, I can't see how any one would think GRRMs world building is as imaginative as Tolkien's? Planetos is very derivative of Earth, whereas Middle Earth is not. GRRMs strength is in the complicated characterisations and interconnected plotting - not the world he has created.

Meh. Thread drift happens. One man's potato... 

I don't know if I'd say it's as imaginative, per se. Tolkien may fit more into the architect as writer type [whereas Martin does not] and if one were to solely judge on history then yeah, the Prof edges out a win. Honestly though, I see Middle Earth as just as derivative as Westeros in some ways. So Tolkien may have gone as far back as pre-creation with his worldbuilding, well, insofar as creation stories go it's far from novel. And in Middle Earth itself neither are notions of fealty, or sacral kingship [to name a few] 

Putting aside the fantastical elements, I didn't see anything dramatically different in social mores or civil structure really. The Shire, perhaps, but that was kind of a paternalistic vision of  the middle class, no? The rest, whether Numenorean, Haradrim, Gondorian, etc etc... they all pretty much divided more or less along polemical differences [light vs dark] without massive cultural differences [not one single case of a matriarchal society even, iirc] and on an individual basis whether those of Men were weak or strong largely depended on their race and/or lineage [again, not novel or original] and when good men turned bad, they were usually corrupted by an outside agent or agency, or curse of some type. It was seldom because, you know, people are rather complicated.  

If that's why Tolkien is predominantly considered more creative, then yeah... don't agree. Different, sure. I'll buy that. 

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

6 hours ago, Bumble Bee said:

  I just don't get why Rhaeger is such a hero. He cheated on his wife and left her for another woman. When the rebellion breaks out, who does he defend? His mistress and their child not his wife and son/heir.   So if R+L=J then how fortunate for the future king of the world Jon that Rhaeger's legitimate family was killed.

Rhaegar took Lyanna as his second wife. He was big into prophecy but Elia almost died having two children. Since Rhaegar was always muttering about the dragon needs three heads, he fell for Lyanna and married her to produce Jon, the third dragon. As for not defending Elia, Aerys 'kidnapped' Elia and her children and kept them locked up for the protection. Rhaegar sent Lyanna to the Tower of Joy with his closest friend Arthur Dayne for protection while he headed North to face Robert at the Trident.

[Dragonslack]

The meister follows the kid to a strange place to see the king for some reason, the kids are more competent and ruthless than arya and jaqen, the kings guard that stood up to frankmountain now obeys her and is not close to tommen, the queen does not leave with her husband, such a wildfire does not spread, one single kid takes out a strong sparrow, the nun was captured offscreen while constantly shadowing the queen etc.

The worst were the strange melodramatic sequences like wtf was that all about lancel going after a small kid, being owned and crawling around despite saying get the others, it makes no sense! Margery not slipping out quietly and wtf why and with what authority would the sparrow stop free people from leaving a public ceremony?! 

Walk of shame on trial biatch with a pet monster manages to have sain people on the throne room after all that. Why would the kings guard or the lamnisters obey?!

Did the valley knights swear to jon? They cant do that.

How does whoring sansa out to a crazy boy make LF closer to the IT and her? That would have been my question.

Instant travel times, no loading!

If Davos was so outraged he would act in a fury, without asking permission, or quietly just before the start of the battle where the giant fought with mere fists lol.

Have you noticed that except maybe jon, now it is all about simultaneous girl power and brotherfucking, killing uncles and innocent people using kids and ordering a frankenrapetorture is cool fun and admrable?

[ummester]

21 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Meh. Thread drift happens. One man's potato... 

I don't know if I'd say it's as imaginative, per se. Tolkien may fit more into the architect as writer type [whereas Martin does not] and if one were to solely judge on history then yeah, the Prof edges out a win. Honestly though, I see Middle Earth as just as derivative as Westeros in some ways. So Tolkien may have gone as far back as pre-creation with his worldbuilding, well, insofar as creation stories go it's far from novel. And in Middle Earth itself neither are notions of fealty, or sacral kingship [to name a few] 

Putting aside the fantastical elements, I didn't see anything dramatically different in social mores or civil structure really. The Shire, perhaps, but that was kind of a paternalistic vision about the middle class, no? The rest, whether Numenorean, Haradrim, Gondorian, etc etc... they all pretty divided more or less along polemical differences [light vs dark] without massive cultural differences [not one single case of a matriarchal society even, iirc] and on an individual basis whether those of Men were weak or strong largely depended on their race and/or lineage [again, not novel or original] and when good men turned bad, they were usually corrupted by an outside agent or agency, or curse of some type. It was seldom because, you know, people are rather complicated.  

If that's why Tolkien is predominantly considered more creative, then yeah... don't agree. Different, sure. I'll buy that. 

Ah - but I think we are talking about distinct things here.

Yes, Martin's world has far greater moral scope than Tolkien's - because Martin's characters are far more complicated than Tolkien's. Sure, imagining complicated human motivations is just as creative as imagining a fantastic world - I'm not saying GRRM is less creative than Tolkien (overall), just that his fantastic world, or narrative setting, is less imaginative with regards to the fantastic - exactly why it is low fantasy and not high.

Forget fantasy for a minute, consider just real world fiction - something like Wilbur Smith, not horror like King (because horror is still fantasy) but a fictional novel bound entirely by real world rules. Is an author like Wilbur Smith less imaginative than Tolkien, or GRRM? I don't think so - in some cases I'd argue it requires greater creativity to fit your drama into the real world than it does to frame it with the fantastic. There is no definitive answer here - all art requires creativity of some kind, more or less is largely irrelevant, as long as the art works for what it is.

All I am discussing with you is the definitions of high and low fantasy and how to apply them to different narratives that have fantastic elements, I'm not trying to determine what true creativity is. You think that high fantasy means more creative - it doesn't, it just means less Earth like.

I mean to respond to Jarl Halstein's comment also - because it adds some very interesting points to this discussion about the origins of fantastic story telling.

[JGP]

9 minutes ago, ummester said:

All I am discussing with you is the definitions of high and low fantasy and how to apply them to different narratives that have fantastic elements, I'm not trying to determine what true creativity is. You think that high fantasy means more creative - it doesn't, it just means less Earth like.

I mean to respond to Jarl Halstein's comment also - because it adds some very interesting points to this discussion about the origins of fantastic story telling.

If that's the case I definitely was led off track when you previously stated [paraphrasing] that ME as an act of artistic creation was moreso than Westeros. And if, as you say, it pares down to which is more fantastic in its setting, then yes I agree. Martin is less than sparing on that front, in comparison. 

[ummester]

2 hours ago, Jarl Halstein said:

To be precise, it's Norse mythology. The gods in Tolkien's universe, as explained in Middle Earth, have a king, who can see the whole world from his throne. Odin is also king of the gods, and can see the whole world from his throne.

Elves and dwarves come from Norse mythology. That is the one mythology where elves are organized in a kingdom, Elfheim, just like they have kingdoms in Tolkien's books. (Elfheim was seen mostly in a story where they joined the nature gods in Vanaheim in a war against Asgard. They lost, and the Vaenir Frey and Freya became hostages among the Aesir. Soon everybody loved them and it was forgotten that they were supposed to be hostages.) In other mythologies elves are simply fairies, living like dainty forest creatures.

The orcs attacking Middle Earth from the south-east in a final war is like the giants attacking from the south in a final war. (The fire giants live in the south, and the fire giant Surt leads the giants in Ragnarok.)

Gandalf, Grey Elf, travels around disguised as merely an old man with a big hat. That is exactly like Odin, who traveled in the world of men dressed in grey with a big hat. Even Gandalf's name alludes to Norse mythology. (Remember elves were not a big thing before Tolkien's books.) He is also connected to birds, like Odin, who had a raven coat that could make him turn into a raven.

In Silmarillion Tolkien reveals that the world has a great world tree in the north and another in the south - much like Norse mythology has the world tree Yggdrasil.

....And of course, the name Middle Earth is Norse Mythology's name for the world of men.

As a side note Tolkien also includes another continent in Silmarillion, an island to the west of Middle Earth, far more advanced. They come as teachers to Middle Earth, but under Sauron's influence they turn into conquerors instead. Due to their vain plans a disaster occurs and the island sinks beneath the waves. Much like the highly advanced Atlantis sank between the waves due to a disaster caused by their hubris. So here Tolkien includes another European mythology, which was very popular before his books reshaped fantasy - the 18th century mythology where ancient advanced kingdoms in the mountains and on islands lived separate from the Stone Age barbarians, and communicated with each other through crystals that vibrated in sync across vast expanses. The kingdoms were Atlantis, Shangri-La, El Dorado, the cruel Lemuria, Atlantis' enemy the City of Mu by Africa's coast, the Underworld reached from a tunnel by the North Pole, Thule, Hyperborea, a city in the Alps, and so forth.

 

But I digress.

As  JEORDHl said - one man's potatoes

Yes, both LotRs and ASoIaF have very strong roots in Nordic mythology. The only major difference I perceive is one (LotRs) is about the rise of the pantheon and one (ASoIaF) is a destructive tale about the fall of the pantheon.

But, if I may be a little more reductive, Norse mythology is itself only a retelling of Proto-Indo-European mythology, which we know much less about, of course. All mythology and fantastic story telling, whether high or low fantasy, Christian or pagan, has it's roots here. All religions have their roots here.

And what was this mythology? It was simply humans trying to explain their world and wrap some moral rules up in a fairy tale. So the origin of all fantastic story telling is low fantasy - how can it not be, it's a human invention?

Oh, to be fair to GRRM and show that reductionism is not trollish but rather is a method to find common grounds for discussion, Norse mythology is schlock when compared to the Proto-Indo-European. But people like schlock - why do you think 50 Shades of Grey sold so well?

[tmug]

This is my biggest complaint.

So if you are planning a trial for 2 people, Loras Tyrell and Cersei Lannister, in one day at the Sept of Baelor, would I be out of my mind to consider that BOTH parties arrive or at the very least be accounted for PRIOR to the first trial???!

It's like a boxing match where you have the under card fight but the main event, Floyd Mayweather hasn't arrived at the arena yet. Add to that, you don't even know where Mayweather is until Queen Margery points it out to Don King that the main event fighter isn't here yet! And the under card fight just finished!

So Don King says "Oh right, we have to go pick up Mayweather from the hotel! Let's go do that now. You all just wait here... unsuspectingly."

Too late, Mayweather and his camp just blew you guys up in green fire.