[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussions - First We Take King's Landing Edition

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

Why do you think d&d have taken SO much liberty with Sansa's character?

Really good question.

Sansa's character gets a lot of grief on the forums. She's been accused of being passive (by being a prisoner for all but the first book), of being baggage (without the means to get herself out of her situation because of that "being a prisoner" thing), of just sitting on her butt while other people (mainly Arya) are actually doing things (see: prisoner-being), of being boring (by being a specialist in traditionally feminine skills).

I think D&D&C share that view. So they decided to "improve" her by making her be more proactive. Hence, her being "a hardened woman making a choice" by freely marrying Ramsay. See? She's doing stuff!

Also, I suspect them of using the story to present themselves as liberal-thinking progressives. Evil religion is evil for persecuting gays! (Because that's all religion is about: persecuting people.) A physically-handicapped character who is also morally and ethically questionable? Can't have that; it's able-ism! Hence, St. Tyrion.

So, Sansa, with her skill set that is traditionally coded as "feminine"? Can't have that; it's sexist! Hence, Boss Ass Individual.

I could be way off-base with this, though. I also think a lot of their changes can easily be understood as a dislike for complexity and nuance and a preference for a simplistic, black-and-white outlook. Bread and circuses.

 

[Prince of the North]

6 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Really good question.

Sansa's character gets a lot of grief on the forums. She's been accused of being passive (by being a prisoner for all but the first book), of being baggage (without the means to get herself out of her situation because of that "being a prisoner" thing), of just sitting on her butt while other people (mainly Arya) are actually doing things (see: prisoner-being), of being boring (by being a specialist in traditionally feminine skills).

I think D&D&C share that view. So they decided to "improve" her by making her be more proactive. Hence, her being "a hardened woman making a choice" by freely marrying Ramsay. See? She's doing stuff!

Also, I suspect them of using the story to present themselves as liberal-thinking progressives. Evil religion is evil for persecuting gays! (Because that's all religion is about: persecuting people.) A physically-handicapped character who is also morally and ethically questionable? Can't have that; it's able-ism! Hence, St. Tyrion.

So, Sansa, with her skill set that is traditionally coded as "feminine"? Can't have that; it's sexist! Hence, Boss Ass Individual.

I could be way off-base with this, though. I also think a lot of their changes can easily be understood as a dislike for complexity and nuance and a preference for a simplistic, black-and-white outlook. Bread and circuses.

 

Completely agreed!  I think it's really both.  I believe showing Sansa negotiating the political environment and gaining some power for herself in the Vale (as I believe will happen in the books) was considered "boring" by the showrunners so they couldn't be arsed to do that.  And that's really too bad because it would have fit in quite well with the showrunners' stated pro-feminist "themes" for season 6.  

It's as if, in the show, the vying for power in a medieval setting that Martin (and now the rest of the world) euphemistically calls the "Game of Thrones" has been reduced to its single, most basic manifestation: namely, actively killing the person currently in the position one wants and immediately assuming said position.  And we all know, from our own history and from ASoIaF, that the Game of Thrones is actually far more complex and nuanced than that.   

[The Knight in Motley]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

In hindsight, I think the show should have done the TOJ as a dream in Season 1.  They wouldn't have had to reveal the entire thing but they should have set the stage way back then.  

They also should have done a Sean Bean cameo....pick a year any year.

I think they should have done a single episode that was entirely backstory to setup Robert's rebellion, the Mad King, ToJ, Valyria, etc.

[SerMixalot]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Really good question.

Sansa's character gets a lot of grief on the forums. She's been accused of being passive (by being a prisoner for all but the first book), of being baggage (without the means to get herself out of her situation because of that "being a prisoner" thing), of just sitting on her butt while other people (mainly Arya) are actually doing things (see: prisoner-being), of being boring (by being a specialist in traditionally feminine skills).

I think D&D&C share that view. So they decided to "improve" her by making her be more proactive. Hence, her being "a hardened woman making a choice" by freely marrying Ramsay. See? She's doing stuff!

Also, I suspect them of using the story to present themselves as liberal-thinking progressives. Evil religion is evil for persecuting gays! (Because that's all religion is about: persecuting people.) A physically-handicapped character who is also morally and ethically questionable? Can't have that; it's able-ism! Hence, St. Tyrion.

So, Sansa, with her skill set that is traditionally coded as "feminine"? Can't have that; it's sexist! Hence, Boss Ass Individual.

I could be way off-base with this, though. I also think a lot of their changes can easily be understood as a dislike for complexity and nuance and a preference for a simplistic, black-and-white outlook. Bread and circuses.

 

FWIW progressivism is NOT anti-religion.  Progressivism is for the separation of church and state AND for protecting the freedom of religion.  Yes many progressives are atheist, but it is simply a spin to say progressives are therefore anti-religion.  In fact many of the tenets of most religions are by their nature progressive ideals.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't think it's that complicated. They haven't just taken liberty on Sansa's character, they did the same to Jaime, to Ned,  to Stannis, to Ellaria, etc, etc. It goes on and on.

Basically D&D has 2 ways to make a character "better", which is either to make them more "badass", or less "religious"..  A badass being someone who is callous, cruel, and is perfectly ok with killing and hurting people. So when they "improve" Davos, or Septon Meri-Ray, they go the "I'm actually not that religious" route,  With Sansa, Ellaria, etc, they go the "more badass" route. And to get Sansa to being a "badass" takes more changes to her character than most. 

[Le Cygne]

I agree that's what they are nominally doing, but it's very selective.

It's funny that Cogman said, "Yes, it would have been hugely satisfying [for Sansa] to have a shiv up her sleeve and gut Ramsay, but that’s not Sansa, We can’t all be Arya (Maisie Williams) and, in fact, most people aren’t Arya. Most people in that situation, they have to play a longer game."

Really, because most people if they were being raped and tortured and used for a brood mare who would then be killed after giving birth would fight back. Because it's a matter of, you know, life and death. Let's see, what did Myranda say? And Sansa, too? That he hurt everything but her baby making parts. Book Sansa had a knife up her sleeve.

Seems like that's a good time to fight back, you know? Why couldn't she be a badass in season 5? She's even bigger than Ramsay, she towered over him. And even if she didn't fight back, why not try to escape? She waited to light the candle until it was too late. In fact, why did she stay at all? She should have insisted on leaving with Littlefinger and the Vale knights.

She had the free run of the place before the wedding. Why did she stick around? She saw the flayed bodies in the yard. She saw what he did to Theon. She knew she was in danger, but she didn't light the candle. She didn't try to enlist anyone's help, how about Myranda, she didn't want the wedding to take place, either. Play on her jealousy, if she's such a player.

And when she had Littlefinger alone with Brienne the Brute in season 6, seems like she could have been badass then, and at least taken him prisoner, if not killed him. Why is she just letting someone who is either an idiot or her enemy go? Why is she not being a badass and doing something proactive, instead of revealing her weakness to him?

This is very selective badassery. And very unrealistic.

Here's Sansa in the books with a knife up her sleeve, she's younger, she's much nicer, and she fights back:

Quote

Sansa whirled. A man stepped out of the shadows, heavyset, thick of neck, shambling. He wore a dark grey robe with the cowl pulled forward, but when a thin sliver of moonlight touched his cheek, she knew him at once by the blotchy skin and web of broken veins beneath. “Ser Dontos,” she breathed, heartbroken. 

“Was it you?”

“Yes, my lady.” When he moved closer, she could smell the sour stench of wine on his breath. “Me.” He reached out a hand.

Sansa shrank back. “Don’t!” She slid her hand under her cloak, to her hidden knife. “What… what do you want with me?”

“Only to help you,” Dontos said, “as you helped me.”

“You’re drunk, aren’t you?”

“Only one cup of wine, to help my courage. If they catch me now, they’ll strip the skin off my back.”

And what will they do to me? Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could, but she was dead, Father had killed her, on account of Arya. She drew the knife and held it before her with both hands.

“Are you going to stab me?” Dontos asked.

“I will,” she said. “Tell me who sent you.”

 

[Ruhail]

6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

So, Sapochink isn't going to be back next year....seems weird unless he has another big project given all the accolades he's gotten.

I think i heard hes directing an episode or two of Iron fist

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

In hindsight, I think the show should have done the TOJ as a dream in Season 1.  They wouldn't have had to reveal the entire thing but they should have set the stage way back then.  

They also should have done a Sean Bean cameo....pick a year any year.

Wasnt there some interview out there where Sean Bean said he would love to see this thing through and come back for ToJ?

[OldGimletEye]

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Hence, Boss Ass Individual.

I never went to Boss Ass Individual school. Nor I have I ever been a practicing Boss Ass Individual ever in my life. So far be it from me to speak about what Boss Ass Individuals do with any great authority or with any expertise.

But, it seems to me, that after watching this season, it may be the case that our Boss Ass Individual might have fallen a little short of what might be expected of a Boss Ass Individual.

[The Fattest Leech]

14 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

I think i heard hes directing an episode or two of Iron fist

Wasnt there some interview out there where Sean Bean said he would love to see this thing through and come back for ToJ?

This past season, I kept wondering if and when and how they show runners could follow up on their season 1 Ned message to Jon about tellin Jon who his mother is the next time they meet. 

Maybe that plot point was dropped because the D's hadn't read that far ahead in the books yet?  

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, Ruhail said:

Wasnt there some interview out there where Sean Bean said he would love to see this thing through and come back for ToJ?

Yes, he did. They used NCW for a younger Jaime.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This past season, I kept wondering if and when and how they show runners could follow up on their season 1 Ned message to Jon about tellin Jon who his mother is the next time they meet. 

Maybe that plot point was dropped because the D's hadn't read that far ahead in the books yet?  

Would have been much better in season 1.

[Darkstream]

6 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

I believe it's not so much that the showrunners aren't aware but that they simply don't care.  Their approach has been, first and foremost, careless.  Their focus has always been with the spectacle rather than the story.  That's also why the show is rife with one of my biggest pet peeves: anachronism (and I think "anachronism" gets to a lot of what OldGimletEye and Le Cygne have been saying about Sansa, and Jon's becoming KitN in the show).  

Unfortunately, it certainly appears that the vast amount of the viewing public doesn't care about things like realism, logic, internal consistency, characterization, etc. either.

I recently heard a review of the new movie "BFG" or "Big Friendly Giant" and when I heard a couple of phrases the reviewer used to describe their impression of "BFG" I thought "Wow, that pretty well describes GoT as well!"  First, the reviewer said "BFG" was an "attractively produced but overblown fable" and then they said "it's more a collection of incidents rather than a narrative with forward momentum."  I then wondered, not for the first time, where even a fraction of this level of scrutiny or critique has been for GoT?  

This ^

I think this is a byproduct of the lack of respect and gratitude they have towards GRRM, the source material, and the initial fans, as well as d$d's realization that they don't have the ability to write a coherent and meaningful story, and knowing that as long as they produce a show that is all flash and spectacle, the success and ratings will be there.

[Le Cygne]

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

This ^

I think this is a byproduct of the lack of respect and gratitude they have towards GRRM, the source material, and the initial fans, as well as d$d's realization that they don't have the ability to write a coherent and meaningful story, and knowing that as long as they produce a show that is all flash and spectacle, the success and ratings will be there.

Flash and spectacle. Sound and fury signifying nothing. That's what they went with, sloppy meaningless nothing. Nothing is just nothing.

[PuddleFace]

Well I haven't been posting much on here but I thought that I should finally get this out of my chest lol

King's Landing

I liked the cinematography bit of it. The music was nice too. I guess we saw this coming. But why was the HS preventing people from leaving?? And Cersei wasn't there anyway, so the trial was going no where. I hate how they made it seem like Marge had something up her sleeve; because it looked that way when she handed the rose paper thingy to Olenna but that went nowhere so that's just another waste of screen time TBH. I guess we can say Cersei conquered the IT but how the hell are there no consequences for her actions. She didn't blow up everyone there so shouldn't there be riots and such?? Under what capacity is Qyburn crowning her Queen as the Hand and the people are just like "I guess we cool now". Cersei has absolutely no support among the common people....I just don't get it, I really don't 

The Twins

The Jamie and Blackfish scene was stupid. The blackish does nothing other than sulk and be grumpy. He's actually one of the more useless additions to the show imo because his arc didn't go anywhere. He's such an awesome character in the books and the show didn't do him justice. Couple that with the fact that he died off screen like WTH!!  The only thing I liked about Jamie being there is him putting down Walder, everythign else was a mess mess mess! 

And I'm really salty about Arya getting the Frey Pies thing. I love her and she should absolutely get her chance to avenger her family but no. As Linda said, this scene was an absolute theft from the books. It doesn't have the umph that the scene with Wyman did, couple that with Wyman's badass speech. I guess what was best about the scene in the books is that it isn't spelled out for us, we kinda have to figure it out. With Arya, I could tell she was going to kill Walder the moment that server girl was looking at Jaime with shifty eyes *sigh*

Sandor and Friends

This scene was absolutely forgettable to me. I don't remember what happened. I only know that they're going north but then that's it......

Porne

Then we get to Dorne. Wait Dorne......I don't know this city? Has is been introduced before?  

Anyway, how is Ellaria talking about justice when SHE KILLED HER PRINCE AND HIS CHILD?!!!! DORAN WAS OBERYN'S BROTHER YOU IDIOTIC TOMATO OMG!!!! I have no idea how we're supposed to be happy about the Martells teaming up with Olenna but I guess #WOMENEMPOWERMENT 

It's also stupid that Ellaria is now "ruling" Dorne. I feel like D&D are taking criticisms of the show being sexist and then putting women in power left right and center. But the thing is, the way this is done is nor right at all. Because most of the women being put in power are either batshit crazy, stupid, have no idea what it's like to rule, and have no business ruling in the first place. The idea of placing women in power isn't the issue, it's how these women come to power that is. I might be the only one who thinks this but yeah.....an all around mess of a scene

P.S: it should've been Doran saying the "Fire and Blood" 

Winterhell

The JonxSansa scene wasn't all that bad. I actually liked the DavosxMelisandre scene as well....kind of. But Jon being king is a major WTF. First of all, I don't mind him being king. It's actually something I've lowkey wanted him to get, even if he's refused lordship a couple of times. But one thing I've wanted for Jon is to be king in his own right, not for someone to plop a crown on his head justice because he's descended from royalty. I actually think Jon would make a decent king.....well book Jon anyway. But I have no idea what show Jon has done to be king. His 'merit' on the show is basically chopping off a couple of guys and looking all sad and stuff. Show Jon doesn't have the kind of merit that book Jon has to be crowned king. He hasn't shown any political finese, he's been a lousy military commander and he's basically saved by everybody. And then he basically usurps Sansa's claim to the North. Correct me if I'm wrong but Jon wouldn't agree to lordship if his sister was SITTING RIGHT THERE FFS!! 

And Sansa....why is she mad that Jon is king. She told Littlefinger she doesn't want it. So where is this jealousy coming from? She's the one who withheld information. She's the one who was whining about not being asked anything but then knows nothing about military command or ruling. I'm sorry but show Sansa would not make a good queen. The whole Winterfell situation is a mess. And don't get me started on those Northern lords. And then Lyanna M is like "he's my king....his name is stark" and all "we answered the call" but she really didn't answer the call if you think about it. She KNEW who Jon and Sansa were when they asked for help but she still refused. She only agreed to help because of the whitewalkers but even that makes no sense. So in short, the Northern lords are shit, basically.

Meeren

DanyxDaario was a boring scene. DanyxTyrion was alright but typical Hollywood. The shot of her fleet going to Westeros was pretty nice actually. I hope she doesn't spend like 100000000000 episodes getting to Westeros when Varys literally spent 10 minutes from Dorne to Meeren. 

Tower of WTF

This was a rather underwhelming scene. Maybe it's because I already knew Lyanna was Jon's mother but this was a poor attempt of revealing perhaps the biggest mystery in the series. 

                                                                               -----------------------------------------

All in all, meh! I've noticed the cinematography gets better with each season but the writing gets worse. GRRM better get back on helping these idiots write because this is really the only adaptation his series will ever get. I could feel sorry for him....I kinda do....but he's taking an awful long time to release Winds and up until late last year he was talking about writing the books more than he actually, you know, wrote the books. I've lost all faith in this show at this point. I had more to rant about but I forgot so I'll be back with more lol

[SerMixalot]

18 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

This ^

I think this is a byproduct of the lack of respect and gratitude they have towards GRRM, the source material, and the initial fans, as well as d$d's realization that they don't have the ability to write a coherent and meaningful story, and knowing that as long as they produce a show that is all flash and spectacle, the success and ratings will be there.

Yet somehow this show with 8 episodes of tedious nothing followed by SPECTACLE BATTLE followed by EVERYTHING HAPPENS Episode somehow receives regular 10 votes. 10 is perfection.  PERFECTION.  I simply don't get it. 

[Mindwalker]

I'm trying to vote for the Carol Awards - it's really so difficult to decide, so much to choose from!

As this mess of the season passes before my inner eye, I'm wondering... Had there not been spoilers/ images that Shae would return? Not that I'm complaining, mind you, but still... Am I imagining it?

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

I'm trying to vote for the Carol Awards - it's really so difficult to decide, so much to choose from!

As this mess of the season passes before my inner eye, I'm wondering... Had there not been spoilers/ images that Shae would return? Not that I'm complaining, mind you, but still... Am I imagining it?

YES! Photos on the set and in costume, iirc. I was going to ask, b/c I didn't watch eps 6, 7, and 8 but I take it there was no Shae after all. Thank the OG for this small mercy! 

And welcome, @PuddleFace! 

ps: I'm trying to vote for the Carols too, so hard to pick just one in each category!

[Paid Debt Lannister]

Trying to vote for the Carols. This is actually pretty funny. I missed them last year.

[Mindwalker]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

YES! Photos on the set and in costume, iirc. I was going to ask, b/c I didn't watch eps 6, 7, and 8 but I take it there was no Shae after all. Thank the OG for this small mercy! 

 

Well, if she was hired and her scenes were cut, she should totally get the "Earned their paycheck" award!

Now I feel robbed. I imagine dream/vision Shae to tell Tyrion how sorry she is, how awesome he is, and that he must forgive himself. Because he's totally beating himself up for killing his father and his ex, right?

Oh well.

[Le Cygne]

Interesting. Book, Sansa regrets her mistakes that played a part in her family's misfortunes, and seems to want to make amends. Show, they are setting her up as someone to make yet more trouble for her family. (She just keeps doing this, thanks to the association with LF they are milking like a prize cow, and now are hinting at more.)

GRRM:

Quote

"Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father’s death."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=49161

[Neds Secret]

3 hours ago, PuddleFace said:

Well I haven't been posting much on here but I thought that I should finally get this out of my chest lol

King's Landing

I liked the cinematography bit of it. The music was nice too. I guess we saw this coming. But why was the HS preventing people from leaving?? And Cersei wasn't there anyway, so the trial was going no where. I hate how they made it seem like Marge had something up her sleeve; because it looked that way when she handed the rose paper thingy to Olenna but that went nowhere so that's just another waste of screen time TBH. I guess we can say Cersei conquered the IT but how the hell are there no consequences for her actions. She didn't blow up everyone there so shouldn't there be riots and such?? Under what capacity is Qyburn crowning her Queen as the Hand and the people are just like "I guess we cool now". Cersei has absolutely no support among the common people....I just don't get it, I really don't 

The Twins

The Jamie and Blackfish scene was stupid. The blackish does nothing other than sulk and be grumpy. He's actually one of the more useless additions to the show imo because his arc didn't go anywhere. He's such an awesome character in the books and the show didn't do him justice. Couple that with the fact that he died off screen like WTH!!  The only thing I liked about Jamie being there is him putting down Walder, everythign else was a mess mess mess! 

And I'm really salty about Arya getting the Frey Pies thing. I love her and she should absolutely get her chance to avenger her family but no. As Linda said, this scene was an absolute theft from the books. It doesn't have the umph that the scene with Wyman did, couple that with Wyman's badass speech. I guess what was best about the scene in the books is that it isn't spelled out for us, we kinda have to figure it out. With Arya, I could tell she was going to kill Walder the moment that server girl was looking at Jaime with shifty eyes *sigh*

Sandor and Friends

This scene was absolutely forgettable to me. I don't remember what happened. I only know that they're going north but then that's it......

Porne

Then we get to Dorne. Wait Dorne......I don't know this city? Has is been introduced before?  

Anyway, how is Ellaria talking about justice when SHE KILLED HER PRINCE AND HIS CHILD?!!!! DORAN WAS OBERYN'S BROTHER YOU IDIOTIC TOMATO OMG!!!! I have no idea how we're supposed to be happy about the Martells teaming up with Olenna but I guess #WOMENEMPOWERMENT 

It's also stupid that Ellaria is now "ruling" Dorne. I feel like D&D are taking criticisms of the show being sexist and then putting women in power left right and center. But the thing is, the way this is done is nor right at all. Because most of the women being put in power are either batshit crazy, stupid, have no idea what it's like to rule, and have no business ruling in the first place. The idea of placing women in power isn't the issue, it's how these women come to power that is. I might be the only one who thinks this but yeah.....an all around mess of a scene

P.S: it should've been Doran saying the "Fire and Blood" 

Winterhell

The JonxSansa scene wasn't all that bad. I actually liked the DavosxMelisandre scene as well....kind of. But Jon being king is a major WTF. First of all, I don't mind him being king. It's actually something I've lowkey wanted him to get, even if he's refused lordship a couple of times. But one thing I've wanted for Jon is to be king in his own right, not for someone to plop a crown on his head justice because he's descended from royalty. I actually think Jon would make a decent king.....well book Jon anyway. But I have no idea what show Jon has done to be king. His 'merit' on the show is basically chopping off a couple of guys and looking all sad and stuff. Show Jon doesn't have the kind of merit that book Jon has to be crowned king. He hasn't shown any political finese, he's been a lousy military commander and he's basically saved by everybody. And then he basically usurps Sansa's claim to the North. Correct me if I'm wrong but Jon wouldn't agree to lordship if his sister was SITTING RIGHT THERE FFS!! 

And Sansa....why is she mad that Jon is king. She told Littlefinger she doesn't want it. So where is this jealousy coming from? She's the one who withheld information. She's the one who was whining about not being asked anything but then knows nothing about military command or ruling. I'm sorry but show Sansa would not make a good queen. The whole Winterfell situation is a mess. And don't get me started on those Northern lords. And then Lyanna M is like "he's my king....his name is stark" and all "we answered the call" but she really didn't answer the call if you think about it. She KNEW who Jon and Sansa were when they asked for help but she still refused. She only agreed to help because of the whitewalkers but even that makes no sense. So in short, the Northern lords are shit, basically.

Meeren

DanyxDaario was a boring scene. DanyxTyrion was alright but typical Hollywood. The shot of her fleet going to Westeros was pretty nice actually. I hope she doesn't spend like 100000000000 episodes getting to Westeros when Varys literally spent 10 minutes from Dorne to Meeren. 

Tower of WTF

This was a rather underwhelming scene. Maybe it's because I already knew Lyanna was Jon's mother but this was a poor attempt of revealing perhaps the biggest mystery in the series. 

                                                                               -----------------------------------------

All in all, meh! I've noticed the cinematography gets better with each season but the writing gets worse. GRRM better get back on helping these idiots write because this is really the only adaptation his series will ever get. I could feel sorry for him....I kinda do....but he's taking an awful long time to release Winds and up until late last year he was talking about writing the books more than he actually, you know, wrote the books. I've lost all faith in this show at this point. I had more to rant about but I forgot so I'll be back with more lol

I like it, I like it a lot!