Discussing Sansa XXVI: The End of Many Debates...

[Mladen]

5 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I really think there's just been such a failure with Sansa's character and portrayal this season...it is just so ambiguous and unclear what she wants and where her character stands.  Maybe the showrunners are going for that...maybe Sophie Turner is failing in her acting, I don't know.  I will say that I 100% read jealousy from Sansa in that final scene with Jon being declared KitN, but when I relayed that to friends they said "no way...it was more of an F you to Littlefinger and she's siding with Jon all the way."  I really just don't know what they were going for with her all season.  

JUST TO REQUOTE THAT ANALYSIS OF THE SCENE...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs4XR4fbY8U

1. At 2:02 you see Sansa smiling at Lyanna's proclamation of loyalty to KING in the North named Stark.

2. At 3:57 everyone starts yelling "King in the North"

3. At 4:16 Jon stands up, turns to Sansa, and she smiles at him.

4. At 4:28 we see her still smiling, having content expression on her face.

5. At 4:29, her eyes move and she sees something/someone

6. At 4:31 LF is shown looking at her.

7. At 4:35, her smile disappears and she looks at LF worried.

[Lord Friendzone]

10 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I really think there's just been such a failure with Sansa's character and portrayal this season...it is just so ambiguous and unclear what she wants and where her character stands.  Maybe the showrunners are going for that...maybe Sophie Turner is failing in her acting, I don't know.  I will say that I 100% read jealousy from Sansa in that final scene with Jon being declared KitN, but when I relayed that to friends they said "no way...it was more of an F you to Littlefinger and she's siding with Jon all the way."  I really just don't know what they were going for with her all season.  

Also, we still never got an explanation for why she held back that the Knights of the Vale might possibly be coming to help Jon.  It was mentioned, but no explanation.  I guess she couldn't say "D & D wanted to create extra drama and recreate the scene from Lord of the Rings Two Towers with Gandalf so they had me do this."

 

I think Sansa was dissapointed when Lyanna Mormont said Snow and declared him King in the North. Her smile fade away but then she smiled at Jon and then again. So jealousy, dissapointment for sure...anger not sure. But also she's worried of LF because Sansa wouldn't want to Jon dead and LF will do everything to get what he wants. But Sansa is destined to takte down Littlefinger so this tension might lead into reveal that Littlefinger is behind Ned's bertrayl. Liam Cunnigham said it won't be pretty betweeen Jon and Sansa...but sure it's his interpretation and he likes to hype the show. So who knows he might be overreacting or talking truth.

[Nerevanin]

7 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I really think there's just been such a failure with Sansa's character and portrayal this season...it is just so ambiguous and unclear what she wants and where her character stands.  Maybe the showrunners are going for that...maybe Sophie Turner is failing in her acting, I don't know.  I will say that I 100% read jealousy from Sansa in that final scene with Jon being declared KitN, but when I relayed that to friends they said "no way...it was more of an F you to Littlefinger and she's siding with Jon all the way."  I really just don't know what they were going for with her all season.  

Also, we still never got an explanation for why she held back that the Knights of the Vale might possibly be coming to help Jon.  It was mentioned, but no explanation.  I guess she couldn't say "D & D wanted to create extra drama and recreate the scene from Lord of the Rings Two Towers with Gandalf so they had me do this."

 

Yeah, I agree with this post. And when it comes to her final expression, I really don't know what to think about it. One part of me wants to stick to the hope that LF's look meant "My poor child, I warned you that this will happen..." and Sansa's look meant "Holy cow, I'm screwed, just missed my chance." But I suppose that it meant something like "I forgot to buy lemons for lemon cakes for the dinner!!" and she just happened to look at LF at the moment.

[Lord Friendzone]

With all this Jon vs Sansa thing. Did you notice how similiar this scene was to Robb being proclaimed King in the North Cat and Sansa being by their side, both Jon and Robb looking in awe that they're being named as Kings. Which makes me think for many reasons this will be clusterfuck for Jon. Sansa, LF, Walkers, his parentage and other reasons. Jon can't die or not before the fight against White Walkers but Benioff mentioned how last King in the North ended and Jon is in danger. He is now a player or in position of power.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I think Sansa was dissapointed when Lyanna Mormont said Snow and declared him King in the North. Her smile fade away but then she smiled at Jon and then again. So jealousy, dissapointment for sure...anger not sure. Bu also she's worried of LF because Sansa wouldn't want to Jon dead and LF will do everything to get what he wants. But Sansa is destined to takte down Littlefinger so this tension might lead into reveal that Littlefinger is behind Ned's bertrayl. Liam Cunnigham said it won't be pretty betweeen Jon and Sansa...but sure it's his interpretation and he likes to hype the show. So who knows he might ve overreacting or talking truth.

He doesn't even say "it is not going to be pretty", he says "I am not sure..." So, I would say he is a bit overreaching here... The GoT actors are kinda known to do that.

We have to give credit to young Miss Turner... Her facial expression is so mysterious that we can't figure it out...

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Lord Friendzone said:

With all this Jon vs Sansa thing. Did you notice how similiar this scene was to to Robb being proclaimed King in the North Cat and Sansa being by their side, both looking in awe that they¨re being named as Kings. Which makes me think for many reasons this will be clusterfuck for Jon. Sansa, LF, Walkers, his parentage and other reasons. Jon can't die or not before the fight against White Walkers bur Benioff mentioned how last King in the North ended and Jon is danger. He is now a player or in position of power.

Yeah, I talked about that on first couple of pages and how their smiles fading is actually recognition of the danger the KitN will face. I always thought of Jon and Sansa as more successful variation of Cat and Robb. 

[Lord Friendzone]

6 minutes ago, Risto said:

He doesn't even say "it is not going to be pretty", he says "I am not sure..." So, I would say he is a bit overreaching here... The GoT actors are kinda known to do that.

We have to give credit to young Miss Turner... Her facial expression is so mysterious that we can't figure it out...

Liam especially. I think they're creating drama until walkers come and then it will be them vs Jon and Daeny. Same with Cersei. I mean Daeny will take her down and Sansa will take down LF at some point. This is her endgame. LF ain't going to win because people would eat them alive.

I have to give credit to Sophie because this season she was really good and at times it was hard to read her intentions. Not only in this episode and their relationship or by putting them together created one of the most interesting storylines. They've never been close, both have trust issues and yet fighting for their home. Bastard and Lady Lannister or Bolton. Jon and Arya would be nice relationship but this one is more interesting but want Jon and Arya to meet.

Also Benioff mentioned that Daeny being single might be good thing for a potentional King. I mean a lot of people saw Jon and Sansa together but I think this was foreshadowing for Jon And Daeny. In fact this whole thing could push Jon to his Targaryen side.

[Ser Muradin the Small]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

He doesn't even say "it is not going to be pretty", he says "I am not sure..." So, I would say he is a bit overreaching here... The GoT actors are kinda known to do that.

Agreed. Kit last year went all out to prove Jon was dead, saying he could finally cut his hair even. And Cunninglam is a bit too enthusiastic and loves to hype up the show as mentioned above.

I really want to see player Jon next season like he was in ADWD, slightly happier since something good happened this season for the Starks for a change.

[gotviewer]

6 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Northerners choose him. She should be mad at them but this wil make it more interesting. Jon would never undermine her or do anything against her. He's too good for this, backstabbing...but Sansa is a player. Not saying she'll stab him or so but it will be very interesting.

Jon DID undermine Sansa when he took the leadership position of King in the North.  He could have said I am a general, a commander but the reason we are here alive and not flayed is bc of my sister Sansa Stark.  She convinced the Vale Army to follow her and destroy the Boltons.  Many of you sneered at her, ignored her, insulted her when she asked for your help.  Should she have used the Vale to destroy you and give your houses to men who would be loyal to her?  You sit now at her table, eat her food and plot to give her rightful spot to me.  My answer is No.  

The thing I do not like about the writing of Jon is that he gets a pass on stuff like this because everyone thinks he is the hero.  He's a nice guy, a good guy.  He is heroic at times.  He did not plot for her spot.  But he took her spot and the only reason its OK with anyone is because its not Ned's spot, Robb's spot nor Arya's spot.  Why did he get the spot?  He does not have the spot by heredity.  He does not have it by right of conquest (the Vale was critical.)  He has it because the Northern lords picked him (almost democratic but with the overtones of family allegiances and such).  What would he have done if they picked Manderley?  Would he have been OK with that or would he have stood with his sister?  

The Northern Lords like him better than her, and they know that if they "take it" from Sansa Stark the only person they can "give it" to is him.  If they gave it to anyone else he would have stood up for Sansa.   Now he can sit there and say "Aw shucks" I never sat above the salt before.

LF should be annoyed.  If he did this he would be the bad guy.  Jon does it and he's the hero. 

I do not think there will be any true conflict regarding this next year because the story is not about fairness and Jon needs to King in the North to set up the next battle.  This is Jon's story and he gets to be hero. 

[IrisBest]

10 minutes ago, Risto said:

He doesn't even say "it is not going to be pretty", he says "I am not sure..." So, I would say he is a bit overreaching here... The GoT actors are kinda known to do that.

We have to give credit to young Miss Turner... Her facial expression is so mysterious that we can't figure it out...

Yeah it seems to me that they want people to think there could be ~trouble in paradise~ but it's mostly because they need some kind of filler drama to go on in WF before the WW's descend on them (and/or Dany shows up on the north's doorstep after conquering the south). And the drama is gonna end up very minor in the scheme of things (although I'm sure some of the goblins in this fandom are gonna keep hoping Sansa's gonna die or something ) and the ultimate result will be Sansa destroying LF once and for all a la that prophecy. Maybe sooner rather than later if we're getting a shorter season next year. 

[Cas Stark]

34 minutes ago, Risto said:

Actually, you can see her smiling before, during and after him being proclaimed the King in the North. Her smile faded when she noticed LF. The way camera looked at her face and she looked directly at camera when her smile dissipated means that she noticed something worrisome and in the next shot is LF looking at her. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs4XR4fbY8U

1. At 2:02 you see Sansa smiling at Lyanna's proclamation of loyalty to KING in the North named Stark.

2. At 3:57 everyone starts yelling "King in the North"

3. At 4:16 Jon stands up, turns to Sansa, and she smiles at him.

4. At 4:28 we see her still smiling, having content expression on her face.

5. At 4:29, her eyes move and she sees something/someone

6. At 4:31 LF is shown looking at her.

7. At 4:35, her smile disappears and she looks at LF worried.

This is what I saw, but what the writers said is that Sansa is jealous of Jon and doesn't trust him.  So, again there is a disconnect between what people seem to see in the show and what the writers say they intended to be seen.

[MiloStark]

It would be REALLY ANNOYING if we start seeing next season D&D go about Jon and Sansa fighting each other. I mean come on! We finally got what we wanted which is the 2 Starks finally home and possibly Arya reuniting with them next season. We finally have the Stark revenge, the North united under a new king in the north and with a big army (including the Vale Army).

If theres some kind of Jon Sansa conflict I doubt it will be really important, it will be just some filler drama until Night King and WW come to Winterfell.

[Future Null Infinity]

so book readers, is there any consensus about Royce and the Vale pledging allegiance to the king in the north? many people on reddit said that it's literally impossible and that the Vale is not in the north

[Raksha 2014]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Actually, you can see her smiling before, during and after him being proclaimed the King in the North. Her smile faded when she noticed LF. The way camera looked at her face and she looked directly at camera when her smile dissipated means that she noticed something worrisome and in the next shot is LF looking at her. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs4XR4fbY8U

1. At 2:02 you see Sansa smiling at Lyanna's proclamation of loyalty to KING in the North named Stark.

2. At 3:57 everyone starts yelling "King in the North"

3. At 4:16 Jon stands up, turns to Sansa, and she smiles at him.

4. At 4:28 we see her still smiling, having content expression on her face.

5. At 4:29, her eyes move and she sees something/someone

6. At 4:31 LF is shown looking at her.

7. At 4:35, her smile disappears and she looks at LF worried.

 

I think Sansa is worried for both Jon and herself, given LF's expression and her knowledge of the harm he can do, and what he has done already, and how she has refused him.  I also think that Sansa was fine with Jon's being acclaimed King of the North.  I'm not sure if she will feel the same way when they find out whose son Jon really is; but I don't see her backstabbing him, literally or figuratively, in the long run.  

LF could kidnap Sansa and threaten to bring her to King's Landing for a showdown (and torture sessions) with Cersei...Or actually bring her to Cersei, have Cersei bully Sansa, imprison her; then LF would show up again and free Sansa and coerce her into marrying him and he'd topple Cersei and become King for a few days or whatever, and Sansa would be queen.  But I hope that doesn't happen.  I'd rather Sansa stay in the North and embrace her Stark roots and participate in the rebuilding of Winterfell and possibly make a home of her own either in Winterfell or in the Dreadfort (which Jon should give to her).

[NoneofYourBiz]

Sansa has no agency as Queen in the North.  She can produce no Stark heir, she is a Lannister and a Bolton and anyone else she marries will produce an heir for that house.  I guess she could go all Queen Elizabeth but that seems unlikely.  She could marry Jon.  She can marry Baelish, but I can't imagine that she would do that.  

I think she will end up killing Littlefinger, probably to stop him from doing anything to Jon or Sweetrobin or both.    In the books and in the show it seems like she will inherit the Vale no?  Sweetrobin is toast and has no heir.   In the books she is being set up with Harry, in the show I would guess after killing Littlefinger she will somehow be named heir by Sweetrobin before he bites it too.  

[Raksha 2014]

1 hour ago, gotviewer said:

Jon DID undermine Sansa when he took the leadership position of King in the North.  He could have said I am a general, a commander but the reason we are here alive and not flayed is bc of my sister Sansa Stark.  She convinced the Vale Army to follow her and destroy the Boltons.  Many of you sneered at her, ignored her, insulted her when she asked for your help.  Should she have used the Vale to destroy you and give your houses to men who would be loyal to her?  You sit now at her table, eat her food and plot to give her rightful spot to me.  My answer is No.  

The thing I do not like about the writing of Jon is that he gets a pass on stuff like this because everyone thinks he is the hero.  He's a nice guy, a good guy.  He is heroic at times.  He did not plot for her spot.  But he took her spot and the only reason its OK with anyone is because its not Ned's spot, Robb's spot nor Arya's spot.  Why did he get the spot?  He does not have the spot by heredity.  He does not have it by right of conquest (the Vale was critical.)  He has it because the Northern lords picked him (almost democratic but with the overtones of family allegiances and such).  What would he have done if they picked Manderley?  Would he have been OK with that or would he have stood with his sister?  

The Northern Lords like him better than her, and they know that if they "take it" from Sansa Stark the only person they can "give it" to is him.  If they gave it to anyone else he would have stood up for Sansa.   Now he can sit there and say "Aw shucks" I never sat above the salt before.

LF should be annoyed.  If he did this he would be the bad guy.  Jon does it and he's the hero. 

I do not think there will be any true conflict regarding this next year because the story is not about fairness and Jon needs to King in the North to set up the next battle.  This is Jon's story and he gets to be hero. 

 

It was rather sad that no one, including Jon, verbally acknowledged that Sansa was even in the room when they were discussing the future of the North and the Stark lordship.  At least Jon looked to Sansa for acceptance or denial before accepting the promotion to KiTN.  

I think that most of the current Lords of the North don't know Sansa very well; she's been gone some five years, and she's something of an unknown quantity, especially to "Kingmaker" Lyanna Mormont, who is only a child herself.  At least they've all heard of Jon and know he has had military experience in the Knight's Watch and was its Commander.  

But it would have been nice if Jon had voiced some gratitude to his sister, or mentioned that their father would be proud of her.

 

 

[Mladen]

11 minutes ago, DebL66 said:

Sansa has no agency as Queen in the North.  She can produce no Stark heir, she is a Lannister and a Bolton and anyone else she marries will produce an heir for that house.  I guess she could go all Queen Elizabeth but that seems unlikely.  She could marry Jon.  She can marry Baelish, but I can't imagine that she would do that.  

Sansa is a Stark... She is not a Lannister, she is not a Bolton. Given that the jump from the wall and escape through forest and frosty river haven't left her barren, she can produce an heir, a Stark heir. I see no reason why she couldn't given that the last Stark girl's bastard actually became a King. 

The thing about QitN is that Sansa never wants it. She doesn't even want to occupy main room in WF let alone become a Queen.

14 minutes ago, DebL66 said:

I think she will end up killing Littlefinger, probably to stop him from doing anything to Jon or Sweetrobin or both.    In the books and in the show it seems like she will inherit the Vale no?  Sweetrobin is toast and has no heir.   In the books she is being set up with Harry, in the show I would guess after killing Littlefinger she will somehow be named heir by Sweetrobin before he bites it too.  

No, in the books she can't inherit Vale as she was not born Arryn. She was born Stark. She was actually promised WF by LF.

At the end of the day, yes, I think we would all agree she will be the one to end Baelish. How it will happen is now open for debate.

7 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

But it would have been nice if Jon had voiced some gratitude to his sister, or mentioned that their father would be proud of her.

It is a pity that neither of them verbally voiced the right of the other one. It would have been so cool to see Jon saying that Sansa is a legitimate heir only for her to see Baelish and turn the table by proclaiming Jon a KitN. A man can dream

 

[Tagganaro]

9 minutes ago, DebL66 said:

Sansa has no agency as Queen in the North.  She can produce no Stark heir, she is a Lannister and a Bolton and anyone else she marries will produce an heir for that house.  I guess she could go all Queen Elizabeth but that seems unlikely.  She could marry Jon.  She can marry Baelish, but I can't imagine that she would do that.  

I think she will end up killing Littlefinger, probably to stop him from doing anything to Jon or Sweetrobin or both.    In the books and in the show it seems like she will inherit the Vale no?  Sweetrobin is toast and has no heir.   In the books she is being set up with Harry, in the show I would guess after killing Littlefinger she will somehow be named heir by Sweetrobin before he bites it too.  

I wonder if on the show Ramsay just took the place of Harry the Heir.  Meaning, I don't think HtH will brutalize Sansa, but I could see him being an obstacle for her to overcome and I think he's a bit of a red herring as far as Littlefinger's game goes.  In the books LF seems to have much less control over Robin although he commands fear from Robin.  It does seem as if LF eventually intends to kill Robin (and presumably HtH after he gets HtH to send the Knights of the Vale to war) and that Sansa has more control over Robin than LF does through his attraction/oedipal issues with her.

Has Robin been sort of written off on the show now that we have left the Vale, presumably for good?  Will Royce just be a stand-in?  We know Royce doesn't like LF and now that he's away from Robin maybe he helps Sansa get rid of him?

 

Just now, Raksha 2014 said:

 

It was rather sad that no one, including Jon, verbally acknowledged that Sansa was even in the room when they were discussing the future of the North and the Stark lordship.  At least Jon looked to Sansa for acceptance or denial before accepting the promotion to KiTN.  

I think that most of the current Lords of the North don't know Sansa very well; she's been gone some five years, and she's something of an unknown quantity, especially to "Kingmaker" Lyanna Mormont, who is only a child herself.  At least they've all heard of Jon and know he has had military experience in the Knight's Watch and was its Commander.  

But it would have been nice if Jon had voiced some gratitude to his sister, or mentioned that their father would be proud of her.

 

 

Yeah, I didn't like how that played out either.  To be fair, I've not liked the characterization of the Northmen all series, and Jon/Sansa this season have been particularly undeveloped in terms of their motivations and character.  I kept expecting Jon to turn everyone down and say he's no Stark and try to shift his and their support to Sansa as the Queen in the North.  

Jon's character has not made much sense since his resurrection.  He was immediately turned into a sort of "I'm too old for this shit retiring cop" kind of character who just wanted to run away and go south.  Then Sansa comes along and Jon gets forced back into things with Rickon/Pink Letter.  I assumed Jon wouldn't want the KitN honors/title/responsibility and would pass it off to Sansa.  Maybe we'll get more of that next year...but

based on D & D's statements, Liam Cunningham's, and the "character development" such as it has been this season, it does seem to me as if the show intends to play out this "rivalry" between Jon and Sansa a little bit longer, with LF as Sansa's "dark side/devil on the shoulder" kind of advocate.  Hence we have Jon never really voicing opinions one way or the other or taking a clear stand, and Sansa withholding crucial information that could get Jon and everyone killed and never giving any kind of explanation for it other than "trust" issues which shouldn't exist.  

[Future Null Infinity]

the next move of LF is he will wait for the next disagreement between Jon and Sansa to try to convince Sansa to usurp the KitN but she already knows about her schemings and she already told that to Jon so she will keep an eye on him

 And the "inside the episode' video is generating a lot of confusion on the internet, people saw a good end to Jon/Sansa relationship but D&D are saying that the relation is bad and it will be a mini civil war between the starks

the problem is that the commentaries are so different from what was shown the episode

I think about two possibilities :

• the episode has been changed after those commentaries from the D&D and the actors (maybe they changed their minds and didn't want to show a nasty Sansa to Jon)
• their commentaries is pure hype, nothing of this mini civil war between starks will happen is S7 (remember Jon is dead and not coming back?) 

[Roboginger]

14 hours ago, Pandean said:

Also I'm hardcore shipping JonxSansa now. Let's hope they find out they're not siblings.

Still first cousins which is iffy depending on what state you're in lol

 

I thought the look was one that could portray Little finger giving her an i told you so kind of look not necessarily Sansa agreeing though.