Discussing Sansa XXVI: The End of Many Debates...

[Mayura]

I don't think Jon and Sansa will become enemies, far from it. But I think we still saw a little glimpse of jealousy in Sansa's eyes and a little "I told you so" in LF's last glance. 

That being said, even if Sansa is a bit envious/jealous of Jon, it doesn't mean they will become enemies. It might just mean Sansa will decide to do what's necessary to become a ruler in her own right, maybe not at Winterfell but elsewhere. This wouldn't conflict with Jon's position as King in the North. What I personally felt during this episode was that Sansa seemed a bit disappointed but resigned too. She understood that, as Littlefinger had told her previously, the North wouldn't fight for her but for Jon Snow, even if Sansa was definitely one of the strongest instruments behind the victory at Winterfell. But I didn't feel she was "against" Jon. She is just resigned as she understood the North wasn't behind "her" as such and she might start looking for her own little piece of power. 

Now, her relationship with LF reminds me of the relationship I had with some of my little teenage boyfriends: everyone tells you they're bad news, you know very well they're bad news, you tell everyone you know they're bad news, they hurt you, they disappoint you, but somehow you still go running to them... Sansa told Brienne she would be harsh with Littlefinger and still ended up making a deal with him without telling Jon. Sansa told Jon she didn't trust Baelish and she refused Baelish's offer, but for how long? She realized Baelish was right on many regards: he wants to take her to the top with him and he offers her to be his queen while, if she remains in the North, she will just be "the King's sister". And with Cersei currently sitting on the Iron Throne, I'm sure LF will pitch to Jon that someone needs to take care of that situation and kick her royal butt out of the IT. And as Jon rules the North, I'm assuming he doesn't care that much about the IT at the moment. And if his sister and her allies hold it, all the better for the northmen.

[Future Null Infinity]

2 hours ago, permaximum said:

LMAO  

Not even Robin Arryn or Petyr Baelish can make that happen

Believe me, someone made a topic about this exact subject in this forum, he wanted to understand

[NoneofYourBiz]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

She is a Stark... As Cersei is a Lannister, Daenerys a Targaryen, Sansa is a Stark. The misogynistic comments regarding her name (and at the same time holding that rule for no one else in the show) is above despicable. Identifying a rape victim with her her abuser is beyond reprehensible.  It is disgusting.

Once again, as I have repeated numerous times, in the canon of the show, she is a Stark. Now, the Lannister-Bolton thing can be moved to threads where such debate is welcome. Here it isnt

It isn't misogyny to point out that this is how things worked in the fictitious time and place of that world, and in the times they were modeled after.  Women were merely used as pawns to make politically advantageous marriages.  There are numerous instances of this on the show.   It is indeed disgusting but that doesn't keep it from being a reality.   Women rulers in Plantetos are still a relative anomaly.

We'll agree to disagree since this is seemingly a touchy subject for you but I don't agree that it is canon in the show that she is a Stark.  

[Mladen]

35 minutes ago, DebL66 said:

It isn't misogyny to point out that this is how things worked in the fictitious time and place of that world, and in the times they were modeled after.  Women were merely used as pawns to make politically advantageous marriages.  There are numerous instances of this on the show.   It is indeed disgusting but that doesn't keep it from being a reality.   Women rulers in Plantetos are still a relative anomaly.

We'll agree to disagree since this is seemingly a touchy subject for you but I don't agree that it is canon in the show that she is a Stark.  

Do you call Daenerys zo Loraq? Cersei a Baratheon? Margaery a Baratheon? No, you don't. It is blatant hatred and misogyny when you make a special case for a rape victim to be called that way. So, unless you make it a case for all women, and we know that is not a case, Sansa is a Stark. On the show, her character is referred as a Stark, in the credits she has been written as a Stark, Miss Turner and the rest of cast and crew refer to the character as "Sansa Stark". So, yeah, it is truly abhorrent policy. And even worse, it is a policy specially designed for Sansa.

[Winter's Cold]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

Do you call Daenerys zo Loraq? Cersei a Baratheon? Margaery a Baratheon? No, you don't. It is blatant hatred and misogyny when you make a special case for a rape victim to be called that way. So, unless you make it a case for all women, and we know that is not a case, Sansa is a Stark. On the show, her character is referred as a Stark, in the credits she has been written as a Stark, Miss Turner and the rest of cast and crew refer to the character as "Sansa Stark". So, yeah, it is truly abhorrent policy. And even worse, it is a policy specially designed for Sansa.

Royal marriages don't have name changes that's why Cersei is still a Lannister and Margaery a Tyrell. Daenerys is a Queen so she keeps her name also.

Sansa is a Bolton the same way Catelyn is a Stark. She married into House Bolton and her marriage was consummated. This makes her Lady Bolton. She can use this to claim the Dreadfort and all the Bolton lands.

Of course Sansa is also a Stark the same way Catelyn is a Tully. No matter who she marries, she will always be a member of House Stark. This makes her Lady Stark. She can use this as Catelyn did to rally her father's bannermen. 

Thus Sansa is both a Stark and a Bolton. The House that nobles choose to associate her with is a political matter.  

[Mladen]

2 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Royal marriages don't have name changes that's why Cersei is still a Lannister and Margaery a Tyrell. Daenerys is a Queen so she keeps her name also.

Says who? It is not a rule and even in the books, GRRM continuously calls the character Sansa Stark. Simply, if you are not going to make the rule for everyone in-universe, don't make a special cases. Especially with rape victims.

5 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa is a Bolton the same way Catelyn is a Stark. She married into House Bolton and her marriage was consummated. This makes her Lady Bolton. She can use this to claim the Dreadfort and all the Bolton lands.

Sansa would be able to claim Bolton lands if she was born a Bolton. She wasn't. The claims don't work that way. Just like in the books, Sansa can't claim Vale or Westerlands forces, here she can't do it with Dreadfort.

7 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Thus Sansa is both a Stark and a Bolton. The House that nobles choose to associate her with is a political matter.  

Given that show clearly established that House Bolton is extinct with episode 9, Sansa can only be a Stark. 

Now, once again, this topic is something that has entire Internet at its disposal to be discussed. I would prefer this little corner not to be place for such discussion. As the OP, I kindly ask all participants to take those comments somewhere else. 

 

[NutBurz]

I´m fairly sure that when people say "Sansa Lannister-Bolton" they´re refering to the fact that, by westerosi law which we all agree is sexist, she would not contribute to a Stark family line and heritage. It´s just a short way of saying it instead of putting the argument there every time, otherwise you risk people not taking the fact into consideration on their replies. Like it happens oh so many times.

[Nakraal]

During the episode I got no vibe of Sansa antagonizing Jon. She sincerely offered him the symbolic master bedroom, she refused to accept LF's advances, she looked genuinely happy with his declaration as KitN and her look to LF in the end looked more like an "eat this" moment than anything else.

Watching the inside the episode clips though it seems that D&D, Cunnigham and Sophie all indicate that there will be fricture, confrontation and ill feelings from her side.

If Season 8 is the story of the battle for dawn, season 7 must have something other to show, which must also be powerful and essential. We have many strong plots for the south but I guess the North plot will be LF driving a wedge between the cousins and his attempt to enlarge Sansa's jelously to become envy.

[Dragonslack]

So after all the crazy ideas expressed here, she had no plan at all lol, no plotting, no crazy ambitions or cunny battle plans, no endorsing jon first, no standing up definitely to lf etc. 

Lyanna is where it is at and that is it.

[Winter's Cold]

Just now, Nakraal said:

During the episode I got no vibe of Sansa antagonizing Jon. She sincerely offered him the symbolic master bedroom, she refused to accept LF's advances, she looked genuinely happy with his declaration as KitN and her look to LF in the end looked more like an "eat this" moment than anything else.

Watching the inside the episode clips though it seems that D&D, Cunnigham and Sophie all indicate that there will be fricture, confrontation and ill feelings from her side.

If Season 8 is the story of the battle for dawn, season 7 must have something other to show, which must also be powerful and essential. We have many strong plots for the south but I guess the North plot will be LF driving a wedge between the cousins and his attempt to enlarge Sansa's jelously to become envy.

Yeah I didn't really get the Jon/Sansa tension from watching the episode except at the end where she and Littlefinger exchange gazes. That last part has multiple interpretations but I viewed it as Littlefinger mocking her. Perhaps it's about the Northern lords supporting a bastard over a trueborn Stark. It could also just be her being concerned about Littlefinger's actions.

 

At least we know next season will be about resolving the Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger relationship. Littlefinger should definitely be dead by Season 7's finale.

[Future Null Infinity]

8 minutes ago, Nakraal said:

If Season 8 is the story of the battle for dawn, season 7 must have something other to show, which must also be powerful and essential. We have many strong plots for the south but I guess the North plot will be LF driving a wedge between the cousins and his attempt to enlarge Sansa's jelously to become envy.

Spot on, D&D are hyping the people for an hypothetical mini civil war between the starks for Winterfell that will never happen as a filler until Daenerys reach the north, and sure LF will try to get advantage with any future disagreement between Jon and Sansa, but she knows LF and she already told that to Jon

[Future Null Infinity]

36 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Yeah I didn't really get the Jon/Sansa tension from watching the episode except at the end where she and Littlefinger exchange gazes. That last part has multiple interpretations but I viewed it as Littlefinger mocking her. Perhaps it's about the Northern lords supporting a bastard over a trueborn Stark. It could also just be her being concerned about Littlefinger's actions.

I never seen LittleFinger like I've seen him in the godswood with Sansa, the man is playing the game with varys like a chess game : silence and thinking about multiple moves ahead, In the godswood, he behave like a teenager "my love, I will give you the iron thrones", at this moment I knew that LF is going to his demise because LF never reveal his plans to anyone, now his plan is revealed his days are numbered, his love to those redhead stark girls made him crazy

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, NutBurz said:

I´m fairly sure that when people say "Sansa Lannister-Bolton" they´re refering to the fact that, by westerosi law which we all agree is sexist, she would not contribute to a Stark family line and heritage. It´s just a short way of saying it instead of putting the argument there every time, otherwise you risk people not taking the fact into consideration on their replies. Like it happens oh so many times.

The last episode was all about Stark girl giving birth to a bastard that SIGNIFICANTLY contributed to the line and heritage.

48 minutes ago, Nakraal said:

If Season 8 is the story of the battle for dawn, season 7 must have something other to show, which must also be powerful and essential. We have many strong plots for the south but I guess the North plot will be LF driving a wedge between the cousins and his attempt to enlarge Sansa's jelously to become envy.

Given that two last seasons will be much shorter, Season 7 will have to deal with political antagonists - LF, Euron and Cersei. I do think that Cersei and Dany will clash, as well as Sansa and LF. I could see Dany's vision from HOTU - Throne room being burned down actually happening in Cersei's madness. 

That said, Starks just can't sit around for those 6-7 episodes... They need a bit drama

[Mayura]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Sansa would be able to claim Bolton lands if she was born a Bolton. She wasn't. The claims don't work that way. Just like in the books, Sansa can't claim Vale or Westerlands forces, here she can't do it with Dreadfort.

You seem quite sensitive about the Sansa Stark/Bolton/Lannister topic so I won't expand on the matter, as it is your wish as the OP that the other users of this forum keep quiet about the topic in this thread and I'll respect that, but I just wanted to point out that Sansa being a Bolton by marriage (which she is/was on the show, whether we want it or not) could actually come in handy. Remember: in the books, Donella Hornwood (born Manderly) became the Lady of Hornwood when her husband and son died, although she was merely a Hornwood by marriage. 

So yes, the fact Sansa married Ramsay Bolton and that there are no remaining Bolton heirs actually gives her the opportunity to become Lady of the Dreadfort. The claim actually works this way in the ASOIAF books universe and it could well work this way on the show too. 

[Mladen]

8 minutes ago, Mayura said:

You seem quite sensitive about the Sansa Stark/Bolton/Lannister topic so I won't expand on the matter, as it is your wish as the OP that the other users of this forum keep quiet about the topic in this thread and I'll respect that, but I just wanted to point out that Sansa being a Bolton by marriage (which she is/was on the show, whether we want it or not) could actually come in handy. Remember: in the books, Donella Hornwood (born Manderly) became the Lady of Hornwood when her husband and son died, although she was merely a Hornwood by marriage. 

So yes, the fact Sansa married Ramsay Bolton and that there are no remaining Bolton heirs actually gives her the opportunity to become Lady of the Dreadfort. The claim actually works this way in the ASOIAF books universe and it could well work this way on the show too. 

The first issue is not my sensitivity, but the fact we always get derailed. Second, Sansa's intention when she killed Ramsay is to completely and utterly destroy House Bolton. To eradicate them from the memory. It would be difficult to do that if she takes Lady Bolton title and Dreadfort.

 

[Mayura]

Just now, Risto said:

The first issue is not my sensitivity, but the fact we always get derailed. Second, Sansa's intention when she killed Ramsay is to completely and utterly destroy House Bolton. To eradicate them from the memory. It would be difficult to do that if she takes Lady Bolton title and Dreadfort.

Honestly, I understand, it isn't the right place for this topic, there are so many discussions to have about Sansa  ! 

Whether Sansa wants the Dreadfort or not is actually another question. But you were saying she cannot claim the Dreadfort because she wasn't born a Bolton and that "the claims don't work that way". But that information was actually not correct: claims do work this way, in the North at least, in the absence of a surviving heir. 

Now while Sansa might not want the "Dreadfort" and while she will definitely not want to be called "Lady Bolton", she could still claim the castle and the lands and either hold them to support Jon or name a castellan to watch her land for her until she has a heir to whom she can give this land. She could even rename it and start her own House or Stark branch like the Karstarks did in the past. 

Just my two cents but the Dreadfort is quite an important castle in the North and Jon himself says (in the books) that when Winter comes, they could make great use of the Dreadfort as it is a strong castle with thick walls (paraphrasing here, can't remember the quote). Adding to that that strongholds in the North are actually quite valuable, it would be pretty stupid, in my opinion, for Sansa to waive her rights on the lands and castle. She suffered at the hands of Ramsay and killed the bastard, it would only be justice if she ended up inheriting his land and turned the Dreadfort into the seat not of house Bolton, but of her own house. 

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Mayura said:

Honestly, I understand, it isn't the right place for this topic, there are so many discussions to have about Sansa  ! 

Whether Sansa wants the Dreadfort or not is actually another question. But you were saying she cannot claim the Dreadfort because she wasn't born a Bolton and that "the claims don't work that way". But that information was actually not correct: claims do work this way, in the North at least, in the absence of a surviving heir. 

Well, the marriage alone doesn't give claim. Sansa, like lady Dustin or Hornwood in the books, are special cases. But, even for Lady Hornwood, it was said that many are trying to get it. So, yeah, she could do it (it's a bit pushing the rules, but not to the extreme) but honestly I don't see it. Sansa wants home, and she has that in WF. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mayura said:

Now while Sansa might not want the "Dreadfort" and while she will definitely not want to be called "Lady Bolton", she could still claim the castle and the lands and either hold them to support Jon or name a castellan to watch her land for her until she has a heir to whom she can give this land. She could even rename it and start her own House or Stark branch like the Karstarks did in the past. 

House Stark of Dreadfort. I have similar idea for BookSansa, where I think she might end up being Lady of Harrenhal 

[Mayura]

^I would *love* that, she deserves it! Do you have a link to your Sansa/Harrenhal theory (if there is a thread at all?). i'd love to read that!

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Mayura said:

^I would *love* that, she deserves it! Do you have a link to your Sansa/Harrenhal theory (if there is a thread at all?). i'd love to read that!

 

[Masha]

Based on the interviews, Kit thinks that Jon is kind of still oblivious to Sansa's feelings and Sophie thinks that Sansa is still a manipulator. I am thinking that LF will be messing around, Sansa would be unwillingly drawn in just to counter him or play along, while Jon concentrates on getting his army together to prep for WW invasion and ignores Sansa, then everything comes to a boil somewhere episode 4 on, because I don't think they will spent whole 7 ep season on fake-Stark infight. Sansa basically counters LF and fights verbally with Jon for his obtuseness