Discussing Sansa XXVI: The End of Many Debates...

[Lord Friendzone]

7 minutes ago, Masha said:

Based on the interviews, Kit thinks that Jon is kind of still oblivious to Sansa's feelings and Sophie thinks that Sansa is still a manipulator. I am thinking that LF will be messing around, Sansa would be unwillingly drawn in just to counter him or play along, while Jon concentrates on getting his army together to prep for WW invasion and ignores Sansa, then everything comes to a boil somewhere episode 4 on, because I don't think they will spent whole 7 ep season on fake-Stark infight. Sansa basically counters LF and fights verbally with Jon for his obtuseness

It will be interesting how far it will go because Liam mentioned not going to be pretty. Hype is one thing but ifhe is right...then it could be nasty. But LF clearly underestimated Northerners and that look when Wyman Manderly speaked about Jon. He laughed probably that little girl Lyanna Mormont vouched for Jon but when Manderly did that. He understood he lost this one but he also made another mistake by revealing his plans to Sansa. His love for her will be his downfall but we need something before White Walkers come. This is Jon vs Sansa feud that will hopefully end in LF downfall beacuse can't imagine him winning the throne with Tyrion or Varys on the side of the most powerful person or them dying.

[Lord Friendzone]

Sophie mentioned in one of the interviews to promote Game of Thrones that Sansa wants to be Queen in the North more than anything and also that she is mentally stronger than Jon. Influencing him. Iron Throne is not in her plans. Also that producers sometimes purposely lied to her about future of the character and that she doesn't know yet what's going to happen. Also she starts filming in September in Belfast.

[tormond]

Before episode 10 i was on the anti Sansa group. I was so sure that she would do something to harm Jon.  Also there had been an annoyance about her in her entire story that rub many the wrong way. I wanted her dead. BUT after episode 10 i dont think she wants to harm Jon, I think she supports Jon and is aware how terrible littlefinger is. I think she will try to protect the naive Jon against littlefinger. I could be wrong thou, maybe littlefinger and new circumstances turns her against Jon

[bb1180]

16 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Also that producers sometimes purposely lied to her about future of the character and that she doesn't know yet what's going to happen. Also she starts filming in September in Belfast.

And that's exactly why we should be at least somewhat skeptical of what the actors and the producers say. 

[NoneofYourBiz]

3 hours ago, Risto said:

Do you call Daenerys zo Loraq? Cersei a Baratheon? Margaery a Baratheon? No, you don't. It is blatant hatred and misogyny when you make a special case for a rape victim to be called that way. So, unless you make it a case for all women, and we know that is not a case, Sansa is a Stark. On the show, her character is referred as a Stark, in the credits she has been written as a Stark, Miss Turner and the rest of cast and crew refer to the character as "Sansa Stark". So, yeah, it is truly abhorrent policy. And even worse, it is a policy specially designed for Sansa.

This is clearly a hot button issue for you for reasons I don't totally understand and I have no wish to offend you.  This isn't a position invented for Sansa. The position is based on how succession seems to be handled in a fictional show based on a fictional book series that draws some inspiration from the War of the Roses. Most of the North seems to subscribe to primogeniture where succession is concerned, offhand the only exception I can think of is House Mormont.  Succession is handled differently in regions and in some cases in families.  Dorne, for instance, does not subscribe to primogeniture.  In the case of Sansa, it is not misogyny or some sort of weird wish to persecute a fictional rape victim that is behind the idea that she is not Sansa Stark, it is the history of how House Stark has handled succession historically in the books and how primogeniture usually works.  As someone else pointed out, Catelyn is a Tully because she was born into House Tully but she did not inherit Riverrun.  It went to a first born male heir.  When she married, she became, for succession purposes, a Stark.  Any male children she produced became possible heirs to Winterfell, with Robb, as first born, being the heir. Upon his death, it passes down to the next oldest male, notably skipping Sansa and Arya.  In the books Robb believes Arya, Bran, and Rickon to be dead, but still doesn't pass Winterfell to Sansa, he passes it to Jon, a bastard, and legitimizes him.  Ask yourself why he does this.  It is because, in terms of succession, Sansa is a Lannister at that moment in time, and he doesn't want Winterfell to belong to the Lannisters.    

These rules actually do apply to Cersei and Marge as well.  Cersei and Marge are Lannister and Tyrell respectively, however, in terms of succession they are considered Baratheon, as that is the house they married into.  That is why Cersei's male children were made kings...because House Baratheon held the throne.  

[NoneofYourBiz]

3 hours ago, Risto said:

he last episode was all about Stark girl giving birth to a bastard that SIGNIFICANTLY contributed to the line and heritage.

And yet her son is a Targaryen or Targ bastard, depending on if Rhaegar married Lyanna or not, not a Stark.  The only reason the North, and Jon, thinks he is a Stark is that everyone currently believes him to be Lord Eddard's bastard.  All that may change when his real parentage is revealed.  

[MoonKnight21]

Just watched the KitN scene again:

When Lady Mormont is talking about "the north remembers etc" - Sansa is smiling.

When Lady Mormont says that she "knows no king but the king in the north whose name is Stark" - camera focuses on Sana and shes still smiling. 

Then when Lady Mormont says "I dont care if he is a bastard..." And proclaims Jon KitN - camera focuses for a moment on Sansa and her smile clearly fades, then it changes focus to Jon. 

To me this is a clear indication that Sansa anticipated being named QitN and when it became clear Lady Mormont was talking about Jon Snow, she was disappointed. 

 

Just my observation.

 

[IrisBest]

38 minutes ago, MoonKnight21 said:

Just watched the KitN scene again:

When Lady Mormont is talking about "the north remembers etc" - Sansa is smiling.

When Lady Mormont says that she "knows no king but the king in the north whose name is Stark" - camera focuses on Sana and shes still smiling. 

Then when Lady Mormont says "I dont care if he is a bastard..." And proclaims Jon KitN - camera focuses for a moment on Sansa and her smile clearly fades, then it changes focus to Jon. 

To me this is a clear indication that Sansa anticipated being named QitN and when it became clear Lady Mormont was talking about Jon Snow, she was disappointed. 

 

Just my observation.

 

But she's also smiling in approval after that when everyone is raising their swords and cheering? She never actually expected to be named Queen at all. She's been expecting this outcome from the moment she told Jon the North would fight for him and she started dressing him like Ned, which is also clear when she's telling Jon to take the lord's chambers. If there's any disappointment it's just from a realization that she wishes she could be Queen but has always known it was a long shot. She was not surprised at the turn of events. She was simply reminded about the slight unfairness of it all, but she also doesn't think it's this grave injustice - she's still proud of Jon. It's a human, nuanced reaction. 

[Future Null Infinity]

21 minutes ago, MoonKnight21 said:

Just watched the KitN scene again:

When Lady Mormont is talking about "the north remembers etc" - Sansa is smiling.

When Lady Mormont says that she "knows no king but the king in the north whose name is Stark" - camera focuses on Sana and shes still smiling. 

Then when Lady Mormont says "I dont care if he is a bastard..." And proclaims Jon KitN - camera focuses for a moment on Sansa and her smile clearly fades, then it changes focus to Jon. 

To me this is a clear indication that Sansa anticipated being named QitN and when it became clear Lady Mormont was talking about Jon Snow, she was disappointed. 

 

Just my observation.

 

the scene wasn't a kind of kingsmoot to choose between Jon and Sansa, it was a meeting to think what they will do next, and Lady Mormont suggested that they should make Jon the KitN to lead them against the army of the dead

[tormond]

2 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

the scene wasn't a kind of kingsmoot to choose between Jon and Sansa, it was a meeting to think what they will do next, and Lady Mormont suggested that they should make Jon the KitN to lead them against the army of the dead

Really?, i didnt get that, wasnt lord Cerwin suggesting that they should all go home and let the passing storm pass?. Do they even know that the White Walkers are real and will come down on them soon?

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

3 minutes ago, tormond said:

Really?, i didnt get that, wasnt lord Cerwin suggesting that they should all go home and let the passing storm pass?. Do they even know that the White Walkers are real and will come down on them soon?

I don't think they think that Jon's warning was just to fool them about WW. I think they have some fear in that.  

[MoonKnight21]

5 minutes ago, tormond said:

Really?, i didnt get that, wasnt lord Cerwin suggesting that they should all go home and let the passing storm pass?. Do they even know that the White Walkers are real and will come down on them soon?

I also got the same feeling - they don't really have a clue about the WW.  They most certainly did not meet to discuss how they will fight the army of the dead. If anything they met to discuss Tormund and co

[Future Null Infinity]

4 minutes ago, tormond said:

Really?, i didnt get that, wasnt lord Cerwin suggesting that they should all go home and let the passing storm pass?. Do they even know that the White Walkers are real and will come down on them soon?

I don't know, but I thought when Jon said "he brings the storm" it was a reference to the WW, it seemed to me from the reaction of the lords that they understood what he's talking about

[tormond]

4 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I don't think they think that Jon's warning was just to fool them about WW. I think they have some fear in that.  

5 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I don't know, but I thought when Jon said "he brings the storm" it was a reference to the WW, it seemed to me from the reaction of the lords that they understood what he's talking about

Did they actually Knew what Jon was TALKING  about?. The King in the north shout was all ON LYANNA shaming them

4 minutes ago, MoonKnight21 said:

I also got the same feeling - they don't really have a clue about the WW.  They most certainly did not meet to discuss how they will fight the army of the dead. If anything they met to discuss Tormund and co

They wanted to discuss ME? those hateful bastards

 

[Future Null Infinity]

3 minutes ago, tormond said:

Did they actually Knew what Jon was TALKING  about?. The King in the north shout was all ON LYANNA shaming them

My opinion from the scene is that from their reaction they knew what does mean "he brings the storm" 

[NutBurz]

Sansa F.A.Q.

1-Is Sansa against Jon?

A-No. Jon is the one of the people Sansa trusts the most right now, however little that is.

2-Does Sansa want to be Queen?

A-Yes, that´s been her dream since she was a child.

3-Can Sansa be Queen?

A-Through regular means, no. The highest position she could have would be Queen Regent/Warden of the North, unless she bent the rules. Who makes up the rules is basically who legitimizes her claim. In Cersei´s case right now, her "legitimacy" emanates from her own person, the Lannister´s gold and the fear she inspires. In Sansa´s case, she would relly heavily on Tradition and her name, since she has no army, no money and inspires no fear. But Tradition is contradictory with the idea of changing the rules.

4-Does Sansa trust Jon?

A-The most correct answer is no. She trusts that he will try to help her, she trusts that he trusts her, she trusts he´s a great warrior, she trusts he will do what he thinks is right always. But she doesn´t trust him to make good decisions, she doesn´t trust him to be a great leader, she doesn´t trust him to be a great ruler. And she definetely doesn´t trust he can protect her.

5-Why didn´t Sansa accept when Jon offered her to be Lady of Winterfell if she wants to be Queen? Isn´t that the shortest way?

A-It´s not the shortest way, because it would require the changing of the rules for her to be a Queen on her own right. Most important - in case the rules didn´t change and she became Lady of Winterfell under the regular laws, Littlefinger would have the perfect opportunity to "acquire" Winterfell through marriage.

6-Couldn´t Lady Sansa simply refuse Littlefinger´s marriage proposal?

A-Not without greatly insulting all the Vale Lords that came to her rescue.

7-Is Sansa plotting against Jon?

A-No. Sansa is plotting despite Jon. She is not actively manipulating him as far as we can see, but she´s making plans around him and that involve him. For instance, handing the Lordship of Winterfell to him in order to take it from Littlefinger.

[MoonKnight21]

8 minutes ago, tormond said:

Did they actually Knew what Jon was TALKING  about?. The King in the north shout was all ON LYANNA shaming them

They wanted to discuss ME? those hateful bastards

 

 

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

5-Why didn´t Sansa accept when Jon offered her to be Lady of Winterfell if she wants to be Queen? Isn´t that the shortest way?

A-It´s not the shortest way, because it would require the changing of the rules for her to be a Queen on her own right. Most important - in case the rules didn´t change and she became Lady of Winterfell under the regular laws, Littlefinger would have the perfect opportunity to "acquire" Winterfell through marriage.

here lays the contradiction between the episode and what D&D and the actors said, in the show she refused the lordship of winterfell and in the interviews they are saying that she didn't like the fact that Jon took the lordship of winterfell, if she wanted the lordship then why she didn't stand for her right in the meeting, it's just hype for a conflict that will never happen

14 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

6-Couldn´t Lady Sansa simply refuse Littlefinger´s marriage proposal?

A-Not without greatly insulting all the Vale Lords that came to her rescue.

she already refused in the godswood : 'a pretty picture' and she walked away

[MoonKnight21]

2 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

here lays the contradiction between the episode and what D&D and the actors said, in the show she refused the lordship of winterfell and in the interviews they are saying that she didn't like the fact that Jon took the lordship of winterfell, if she wanted the lordship then why she didn't stand for her right in the meeting, it's just hype for a conflict that will never happen

she already refused in the godswood : 'a pretty picture' and she walked away

So, to me she didnt say she doesnt want to lady of winterfell title. The scene went as follows: 

Jon saying he asked them to prepare the lords chamber for her. 

Sansa says "no you should take it"

Jon saying "no you take it, of it wasnt for you and the knights of the vale we wouldnt have won"

Discussion about the Lords title (and chamber) ends there, with Jon offering it to her, but she doesnt accept or decline. 

[Lord Friendzone]

43 minutes ago, tormond said:

Really?, i didnt get that, wasnt lord Cerwin suggesting that they should all go home and let the passing storm pass?. Do they even know that the White Walkers are real and will come down on them soon?

Jon hinted at White Walkers and they knew it. Of course discussion about this will be in next season but Cerwyn and others had that look like what if he's talking truth and Lyanna belived in his stories.