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Discussing Sansa XXVI: The End of Many Debates...


Mladen

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15 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I didn't wait 2 years to finally see her story and now they will make her a traitor

I swear if D&D make her a traitor to Jon I will go wolverine on their asses and then start rooting for Thoros of Myr, this one does have a bigger chance to survive

I too will not be a happy camper if this happens.

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19 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

No, she doesn't. She said they get the scripts two weeks before the shooting starts. So, what she says is just her own thoughts about the  future of the character.

 

Then, since Ms. Turner is privy neither to GRRM's unpublished ASoIaF material nor the future scripts of GOT seasons 7-8, I don't see that she has any information we can count on in terms of TV-Sansa's feelings and actions.  She's making guesses based on her own understanding of the character.  Which is what we're doing too, though we approach it from what we have seen on the TV screen and she approaches it from what she has put into the performances that we have watched.

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Just now, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Then, since Ms. Turner is privy neither to GRRM's unpublished ASoIaF material nor the future scripts of GOT seasons 7-8, I don't see that she has any information we can count on in terms of TV-Sansa's feelings and actions.  She's making guesses based on her own understanding of the character.  Which is what we're doing too, though we approach it from what we have seen on the TV screen and she approaches it from what she has put into the performances that we have watched.

Truthfully, I think Ms. Turner is prone to talking nonsense at times. I take what she says often with a grain of salt.

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1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Truthfully, I think Ms. Turner is prone to talking nonsense at times. I take what she says often with a grain of salt.

Basically, yes... She seems like a sweet young woman, but sometimes, her opinions are borderline nonsensical. Interestingly, she is not alone in this. Throughout the years, several cast members had some rather strange opinions about their characters.

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5 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Then, since Ms. Turner is privy neither to GRRM's unpublished ASoIaF material nor the future scripts of GOT seasons 7-8, I don't see that she has any information we can count on in terms of TV-Sansa's feelings and actions.  She's making guesses based on her own understanding of the character.  Which is what we're doing too, though we approach it from what we have seen on the TV screen and she approaches it from what she has put into the performances that we have watched.

That's really not true. She does not have the scripts, that's right, but she has many ways of getting this information. D&D surely talk a lot with her about her character, she's one of their favourites. So she must know, more or less, which way her character will evolve.

She probably doesn't know the exact plot of Sansa in Season 7, but if she says she will have a feud with Jon...I'd put my money on that. 

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Best thing for this story would be Sansa betraying and beheading Jon, and the North losing the war against the white walkers.

 

then dany can drown with half her ships, euron capture the rest along with Tyrion, presents him to Cersei and they rule a dying kingdom as the white walkers slowly win.

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7 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

Best thing for this story would be Sansa betraying and beheading Jon, and the North losing the war against the white walkers.

 

then dany can drown with half her ships, euron capture the rest along with Tyrion, presents him to Cersei and they rule a dying kingdom as the white walkers slowly win.

You must be fun at parties. But damn wouldn't it be better for white walkers to win. No more wars between houses, just peace.

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43 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

thank you, it almost like she said in this interview :

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-spoilers-jon-sansa-littlefinger-marry-theory-sophie-turner-1201805047/

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finale-sophie-turner-906820

I didn't wait 2 years to finally see her story and now they will make her a traitor

I swear if D&D make her a traitor to Jon I will go wolverine on their asses and then start rooting for Thoros of Myr, this one does have a bigger chance to survive

So this is the new story of winterfell?, a feud between Jon and Sansa? to make us wait for season 8 and the war of dawn? 

If she will go against Jon then she will 100% dead, when I thought that sticking with the starks because they have a plot armor :crying:

It makes me angry too. I love them both but if they make her to be a traitor and they could. I mean Jon is needed for the war against walkers more than Sansa. He can die but at the end with them fighting and not before. This raises the questions that it might be predictable outcome of Jon winning somehow or that Sansa will gain something and Jon will lead forces. Like some truce. Not sure if Sansa is going to kil him or something like that. He's no Ramsay.but their relationship could be pretty sour as the result. I mean Arya is unlikely to continue Strark line, Bran is 3ER, Jon is not even full time Stark and might switch to Targaryen side if he gos as far as beig king of Westeros. Sansa doesn't look like someone who wants to marry anyone. Saddest thing abou this is that this could be truly end of House Stark.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

You must be fun at parties. But damn wouldn't it be better for white walkers to win. No more wars between houses, just peace.

^^

Then they can reset and go full circle, with corrupt scheming White Walkers and stuff. Maybe dwarves trying to bring back the monsters from legends called Humans with their freakish tanned skins and fire demons.

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45 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Naah, I don't really think she'll betray him. LF will try to create a wedge between them, there'll be tension, etc...but at the end of the day, LF will end up dead and Jon and Sansa will be both fine.

If she does betray him, which would honestly surprise me...she's dead. Jon's the main character. She's not going to get the Throne unless he wants her to.

Killing each other is nonsense. We can scratch that because even Sansa can be ruthless but Jon is no psycho like the one that raped her. This feud can basically lead to end of House Stark and their relationship. Simply they can't trust each other and might even dislike each other at the end of it. Even  if LF is taken down. It would be fitting as Sansa is like Cat. Like mother like daughter. She will try to like him but her hatred will prevail. Sophie kept mentioning that this animosity has roots in their childhood.

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It could be that Sansa and Jon will have tension between them next season; Sansa having major trust issues in the ability of Jon to protect her and value her; and feeling a bit lost in the place she wants to be home; since Jon will be calling the shots and may not even have time (or take the time) to listen to her or hang out with her.  Jon should have (or should in the very near future, like after accepting the KiTN promotion) acknowledged Sansa's presence to the Northern Lords; it was like she was invisible to them, they paid her no respect or even attention at all.  And she does deserve some acknowledgment as Ned Stark's daughter who is returned to Winterfell.  

But if Sansa seriously thinks she should be Queen in the North at this time, rather than Jon; then she has learned nothing.  Sansa doesn't know enough about the situation and political reality of the North as it is now, five+ years after she happily left it for a Southern paradise that turned into H*ll.  Jon is no politician, but he does know the Night's Watch, the Wildlings, and what is coming for them all.  Does Sansa even know that the White Walkers are out there?  Does she know the military numbers and value of each Northern House; and how they have survived the last five years?  Right now, little Lady Lyanna would make a better QiTN than Sansa.  

That's not to say that Sansa can't learn such things.  But so far, she hasn't shown any inclination to do so; although she hasn't had much time to relax post-Ramsay and restart her Northern education.  

The biggest decisions Sansa will have to make in the remainder of the GOT show are where does she want to make her home; and how - cleave to Littlefinger and go for a seat as Consort to the King of it all via manipulation and coercion and dirty tricks and betrayal, cleave to Winterfell but as its Queen by betraying Jon or getting someone else to do it for her, or to stay loyal to what's left of House Stark and help Jon even if it means she will be Lady Sansa and not Queen in the North?  I have the feeling that Sansa will eventually decide that she and Jon are truly family, that she trusts him, and she will help him, and possibly kill Littlefinger for Jon (and herself).  And then Sansa will probably be killed.

Or, Sansa will be even  more jealous when Arya returns to Winterfell (to Jon's great joy) and she and Jon treat Sansa as a third wheel; and Sansa will pout and connive and make more bad choices and possibly betray them.  In which case, she'll have learned nothing over the course of six or more years and will deserve whatever shabby treatment Littlefinger gives her... 

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My final version of Episode 10 after reviewing the scenes as I see it after reading all the interviews:

  • Jon didn't offer her the lordship of Winterfell, he said simply "you are the Lady of winterfell" (which is the reality) and she remains silent (she didn't refuse)
  • in the meeting room, Lyanna Mormont speaks and suggests Jon as KitN (like Sam in the LC election in CB)
  • everyone accepted (like the scene of Robb)
  • it was a surprise for jon, he can't say no (like in LC election)
  • it was also a surprise for sansa, she smiled but internally she didn't like it, she didn't like that they took her lordship of Winterfell like this
  • her smile faded after that by anger

she was angry because they took Winterfell from her after everything she done : calling the knights of the vale and saving Jon

Sophie in the video said that Sansa is like Catelyn in her view to Jon, they are good with each other but she ultimately see him like a bastard and surely dislike that Winterfell goes to Jon

Basically Sansa is Thorne 2.0 (some story recycling?)

 

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It makes me angry too. 

 

2 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

It could be that Sansa and Jon will have tension between them next season

 

2 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

She probably doesn't know the exact plot of Sansa in Season 7, but if she says she will have a feud with Jon...I'd put my money on that.

 

2 hours ago, Risto said:

Basically, yes... She seems like a sweet young woman, but sometimes, her opinions are borderline nonsensical. Interestingly, she is not alone in this. Throughout the years, several cast members had some rather strange opinions about their characters.

 

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Truthfully, I think Ms. Turner is prone to talking nonsense at times. I take what she says often with a grain of salt.

 

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I´m going to do a little comparison between Isabella of France and Sansa, just to have my thoughts written somewhere, and I hope this helps someone else understanding her a little better. I´m fairly sure she´s a source of inspiration, as I hope it gets clear, but feel free to ignore if you disagree completely. In any case, any historical reference will only lend bits and pieces to the complete character. Queen Elizabeth is a much more obvious and probably much more relevant comparison, for example.

 

From wikipedia - [Isabella] was the youngest surviving child and only surviving daughter of Philip IV of France and Joan I of Navarre. Queen Isabella was notable at the time for her beauty, diplomatic skills, and intelligence...Isabella arrived in England [to marry King Edward II] at the age of 12 during a period of growing conflict between the king and the powerful baronial factions.

 

So far, very similar. Here things get less 1:1. Edward was known for controversial relationships with other men, so their entire dynamic would be a lot closer to Margaery/Renly than Sansa/Joffrey.

But here´s the thing - the first of these friends was Piers Gaveston. He was to Edward what Loras Tyrell was to Renly - a very close rich friend. And in the show, the Tyrell family leaves Renly and aligns themselves with Joffrey´s  Lannisters to secure a certain stability - and later work with Sansa for possible mutual benefit. Isabella works with Gaveston to secure a certain stability, so Gaveston plays a somewhat similar part.

Isabella is a much more active political player than Sansa. I believe this part of her personality was gifted to Margaery, but also would be lost on Sansa in any case because she was not given any power, unlike Isabella.

Piers Gaveston finds himself killed by the barons that were causing trouble in the first place. That leads Edward II towards a friendship with Hugh Despenser, and distance him from Isabella.

"Queen Isabella had a special dislike for Hugh le Despenser the younger. (Froissart wrote that "he was a sodomite.")[10] Alison Weir, in her 2005 book Queen Isabella: Treachery, Adultery, and Murder in Medieval England, speculates that he had raped Isabella and that was the source of her hatred."

Several other sources point out the reason for her attrition with Hugh Despenser as being his constant physical and sexual abuse of women, including from the court.

This attrition eventually causes her to lose her lands and access to her children, so she travels to France under the guise of a diplomatic mission to talk to her brother King of France, and allies herself to a rich man called Roger Mortimer who "gained many estates in the Welsh Marches and Ireland following his advantageous marriage to the wealthy heiress Joan de Geneville, 2nd Baroness Geneville. In November 1316, he was appointed Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. " and makes an excellent Littlefinger role - both for Sansa´s escape from King´s Landing and for a possible future rift with Jon.

With the new alliance with Mortimer, Isabella goes back to England with a mercenary army and, long story short, conquers it, deposes Edward and locks him away. Edward II would die in prison, with rumours that Isabella had arranged it herself, a-la Sansa/Ramsey (and who knows a future Sansa/Jon ^^).

 

She acts as Queen Regent for her son Edward III, and in the end of her reign faces several issues resulted from her efforts to end the war with the Wildl....Scottish.

 

If you keep digging regarding Edward´s reign, the big famine, the several house clashes, and the funny fact he has a permanent problem with the Lannis.....Lancasters, many other things will remind you a little of GoT.

 

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7 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Sophie mentioned in one of the interviews to promote Game of Thrones that Sansa wants to be Queen in the North more than anything and also that she is mentally stronger than Jon. Influencing him. Iron Throne is not in her plans. Also that producers sometimes purposely lied to her about future of the character and that she doesn't know yet what's going to happen. Also she starts filming in September in Belfast.

Did she say what she was lied about (or do you read somewhere what it was)? I only knew Kit lied to her about Jon's death... I wonder whether she was just speaking of the fact some actors got fake scripts saying they had to die (poor them) or it was something more specific. I also wonder if they told her something was about to happen, it didn't happen, she ruled it out.. and it will happen in the future (or the other way round).

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If a number of the actors and one of the producers is saying that there will be tension between Jon and Sansa, it is probably true.  But I think some of the ideas that are expressed here that this will be a major feud are way, WAY blown out of proportion.  

They do NOT have a complete picture of what all will be happening next season, I'm sure.  I would bet there will be some friction between Sansa/Jon, that LF will continue to try to poison Sansa against Jon, but in the end, it won't amount to any great betrayal or grievous wrong.  But they will probably never be terribly close.  The actors/producer are just giving us a taste of what will be happening next season, and that is one little tidbit they can give us.  That doesn't mean that is what the bulk  - by any means - of their arc is going to be about. 

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Yeah, because the Hound will show up and finally reveal to her, that LF betrayed her father and then he's dead.

Although it doesn't do much for Sansa's portrayal that she, yet again, is going to make the wrong decisions in who to trust and how to navigate things.....complaining, lying.....not much for her character development...

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I think it might be a situation that is parallel to NW arc. Jon will be betrayed by Sansa under LF's plot. He might be dead again or near death, then when he finally wakes up there might be some revelation that he is not a Stark at all. So he will quit  the North the same way he quit NW. Like: "Fxxx this shit, my duty here has ended. I have had enough of all these betrayals." Like he finally understands that his home isn't NW or even WF. Then on his way to the South he meets Dany and she asks him to be her commander in the war against WW. His heritage as a Targ also helps in this case. He might still die in the end. 

That said, if he doesn't die in the end, It will be nice if he makes Dragonstone his new home. Afterall, if he is legitimate, it will be his home. 

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