Discussing Sansa XXVI: The End of Many Debates...

[SerBadiali]

10 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

From the weirwood scene with LF, I'm pretty sure that Sansa doesn't want to be queen anymore, she said "I always wanted to be someone else" or something like that, it was the point of her story, she wanted being a southerner, a queen and lannister and not to be a stark and a northerner so hard, she paid the price for that, now she wants to return to her stark roots, you can see a parallel between Sansa and Margaery, both tried too hard to be queens,  Sansa failed and was saved but margaery succeeded but paid the ultimate  price and was roasted like a chicken in the sept of baelor

The idea that Sansa "wants" to be Queen is kind of stupid.  She essentially gave it to Jon.  Jon never expected to be King nor asked for it.  In fact, Jon is worried about the WW coming.  He has no desire to be King other than access to men for the upcoming battle with the dead.  He has shown no desire or ambition to rule in any other reard.  If the show portrays a grudge match between Sansa and Jon it would make absolutely no sense at all.  It is one thing to deviate from the books.  It is quite another to deviate from your own show.  A Jon vs. Sansa pissing match over ruling the north would be stupid and make absolutely no sense at all.

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, SerBadiali said:

The idea that Sansa "wants" to be Queen is kind of stupid.  She essentially gave it to Jon.  Jon never expected to be King nor asked for it.  In fact, Jon is worried about the WW coming.  He has no desire to be King other than access to men for the upcoming battle with the dead.  He has shown no desire or ambition to rule in any other reard.  If the show portrays a grudge match between Sansa and Jon it would make absolutely no sense at all.  It is one thing to deviate from the books.  It is quite another to deviate from your own show.  A Jon vs. Sansa pissing match over ruling the north would be stupid and make absolutely no sense at all.

I just was speaking about her wanting to be queen in the start of the story

I think that the announced grudge will happen in be in the show but not as we think, I think that Sansa will play the double agent for her brother against LF, she will play the game acting like she's siding LF which will lead to the death of Baelish

[WolfClaw]

 

This is a combination of posts I recently made in another thread, in order to quench the theories around Sansa and Jon impending conflict.

We must take into account that almost everyone among the cast believed that Jon was dead and gone at the end of the previous season. Kit even teased Sophie about that. So, we can assume that the cast do not know or do not know details about what is going to happen in the next season.

 

Furthermore I have four observations on that matter:

1. Those interviews were taken during the filming of season 6. They could not possibly have knowledge of season 7 script, since it was finished not so long ago. The actors and actresses still have not read the script for the next season, so they do not know what will happen in season 7.

2. We know the cast members have lied in the past or they did not reveal the truth about certain things, and I am not referring to Jon Snow case. Does anyone remember that Emilia Clarke said she will not do nude scenes again? Or that was crucial part of the story too?

3. I do not find likely the cast did not know Jon's fate after the end of season 5, which was major part of the script, but they know the details of season 7.

4. Even if they know some things about season 7 and Jon and Sansa's relationship (which is doubtful from my point of view at least), each of them used different expressions that do not indicate the same level of conflict. Plus in every interview in season 6 both writers and Sophie Turner have said that Sansa does love Jon.

 

And about certain someone's storyline we have this precedent. These parts are from season 4 about Sansa's future in season 5:

from an interview

 

Season 4: Inside the Episode 8

 

From George R. R. Martin himself

 

And two more interviews from season 5

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/11/sophie-turner-game-of-thrones-shocking_n_6655484.html

http://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-star-sophie-turner-teases-season-5-sansa-will-use-her-sexuality-to-manipulate-video/

Quote

With this new look, is this a new era for Sansa?

This thing about this whole change for her, changing the dark hair and changing the structure and the color of the dress, was a very conscious decision for her to kind of get away from her mother’s Tully roots and really, you know, form something of a House of her own. She wanted to completely change everything everyone has ever known about her. So it’s just like a massive transformation. There’s no Sansa left behind, and I think not just in the way that she appears but in the way that she’s thinking now. How she’s become this, like, massive manipulator in a way.

Are you creeped out by what’s going on with Sansa and Little Finger?

I kind of love the storyline. I mean, for some viewers, it’s very creepy, but that’s kind of what it’s supposed to be. It’s supposed to be this very messed up, twisted relationship in which Sansa knows she can manipulate Little Finger to get what she wants, and he can do the same with her. And together they create this amazing kind of tag team. And, you know, to outsiders, it’s very messed up and strange, but to her it’s the only way she can get what she wants, and finally she has that power, so she’s gonna use it.

We all know how things end up for Sansa in season 5. Did any of those things happen?

 

I am not suggesting that conflict is certainly not going to happen (thought I am giving it a very small chance to actually happen). But, even if it happens, it will not be that dramatic, but more of a disagreement. After everything they have said and how things played out, we should take everything they say with a grain of salt.

[Winter's Cold]

It makes sense for D&D to want to hide Jon's resurrection. Jon's death was the central cliffhanger of Season 5. They really wanted to pretend that Jon was never coming back in order to surprise the audience in Season 6.

It does not make sense for them to pretend that there will be a conflict between Jon and Sansa due to Littlefinger's manipulations. Perhaps the extent of that conflict has been exaggerated but this season has shown that Littlefinger is definitely capable of getting Sansa to distrust Jon. There's nothing surprising about Jon/Sansa conflict. Jon may trust Sansa but that does not mean that Sansa trusts Jon.

[WolfClaw]

And if anyone suggest that those things are in the past, I would like to remind everyone this:

Season 6: Inside the Episode 5

David Benioff said

Quote

Sansa has gotten really good at playing the game.

She is starting to look a couple of moves ahead and she is starting to think is it possible this person is more useful to me alive than dead.

Does any of those things played out to be that way in this season? Unfortunately, not exactly. Sansa did use the Vale army, but she did it because she had no other alternative and with regret, because many of the Northern Lord acted as cowards and forgot their oaths. She promised to reward Littlefinger, so it is not that she manipulated him to do what she wanted.

[Winter's Cold]

10 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

And if anyone suggest that those things are in the past, I would like to remind everyone this:

Season 6: Inside the Episode 5

David Benioff said

Does any of those things played out to be that way in this season? Unfortunately, not exactly. Sansa did use the Vale army, but she did it because she had no other alternative and with regret, because many of the Northern Lord acted as cowards and forgot their oaths. She promised to reward Littlefinger, so it is not that she manipulated him to do what she wanted.

She definitely manipulated Jon at least.

[PirateVergo]

D&D and their feminists agenda is the reason why they had to make Jon act like a moron while making Sansa looks good, need to remind the show watchers that only Women are competent rulers in Game of Thrones as proven by Cersei,Dany,Ellaria and Olenna being the only other major players as well as Yara most likely taking back the Iron Island at some point.

[Ser Muradin the Small]

 

Why can't they pass the time having the Winterfell party eating lemoncake, making snowmen and other shenanigans?

[Mladen]

13 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

D&D and their feminists agenda is the reason why they had to make Jon act like a moron while making Sansa looks good, need to remind the show watchers that only Women are competent rulers in Game of Thrones as proven by Cersei,Dany,Ellaria and Olenna being the only other major players as well as Yara most likely taking back the Iron Island at some point.

The problem is that they don't have feminist agenda, just the lack of consistency. If they wanted to make a point about female rulers, they should have just given the reigns to Sansa, or make a point about her relinquishing the power or something. Because this "she wants it, she doesn't want it" after a while becomes lame.

9 minutes ago, Ser Muradin the Small said:

Why can't they pass the time having the Winterfell party eating lemoncake, making snowmen and other shenanigans?

Why indeed... One could enjoy lemoncakes and building snowmen... With a little Frozen touch

[KingInTheBay]

This has been an interesting thread to read, but I think many of you are so focused on Jon and Littlefingers, your not paying proper attn to Sanaa's arc.

When we first meet her, both in the show and in the books, she's the prototype little girl dreamer. She wants to be the queen, only in as much as that means being a dutiful wife to her husband, the king. Her arc the first two seasons of being rudely shaken from this ideal is graphically illustrated by first the Joff bethronal, then being married to Tyrion.

When she's rescued by Petyr, she begins to understand that relying on man to protect her is chancy at best, and that she must develop some wiles of her own to survive. This is shown clearly when she spins her aunt's death to bronze yohn , and saves Littlefingers. She's stepped in the game.

Sansa, for whatever you may think of her, is no longer star struck or silly. It must sound insane to her inner child when liiltlefinger offers her the same thing she had when dethroned to Joff, seconds after she tells him she's 'done with all that's

Her arc season 7 is clearly gonna be her becoming a master of manipulation, and in so doing outwitting Littlefinger to his demise. She plays up her discontented look during Jon's kitn chant for this reason. Littlefinger, for all his scheming bravado, and despite the fact he knows Sansa can act(he thought her) buys in. Love can make u see what u want see. The cast members playing that look up only makes me more sure, they want you to notice and reach Petyr's conclusion. Having the dreamy girl of season one arc into the person that outschemes Baeslis is perfect narrative arc. Remember what he told Sansa about everyone being a better liar than her in King's Landing during the Hands Tourney? Bet she throws these in his face as she pulls the rug from under him.

[Maid So Fair]

I find it really frustrating that even after the series finale, it is no more clear what Sansa's motivations and feelings are. She seems to yo-yo between being a manipulative chessmaster looking after her own interests and grateful for being reunited with her family and supportive of Jon. One scene she's telling Jon to take the Lords chambers and the next she looks miffed when he's proclaimed the KitN. She says only a fool would trust LF yet not only lets him live but seems to tease a potential later interest. She says she never was grateful for what she had yet the idea of her on the throne is 'a pretty picture'. I just can't with Sandra. I don't even care which option is the correct one - she should make up her mind about it and act consistently. I suppose maybe they're trying to portray a discrepancy between what she feels and what she says but it just falls flat nd is more annoying than mysterious and there always something to contradict whatever view you are going with.

[Florina Laufeyson]

4 hours ago, KingInTheBay said:

This has been an interesting thread to read, but I think many of you are so focused on Jon and Littlefingers, your not paying proper attn to Sanaa's arc.

When we first meet her, both in the show and in the books, she's the prototype little girl dreamer. She wants to be the queen, only in as much as that means being a dutiful wife to her husband, the king. Her arc the first two seasons of being rudely shaken from this ideal is graphically illustrated by first the Joff bethronal, then being married to Tyrion.

When she's rescued by Petyr, she begins to understand that relying on man to protect her is chancy at best, and that she must develop some wiles of her own to survive. This is shown clearly when she spins her aunt's death to bronze yohn , and saves Littlefingers. She's stepped in the game.

Sansa, for whatever you may think of her, is no longer star struck or silly. It must sound insane to her inner child when liiltlefinger offers her the same thing she had when dethroned to Joff, seconds after she tells him she's 'done with all that's

Her arc season 7 is clearly gonna be her becoming a master of manipulation, and in so doing outwitting Littlefinger to his demise. She plays up her discontented look during Jon's kitn chant for this reason. Littlefinger, for all his scheming bravado, and despite the fact he knows Sansa can act(he thought her) buys in. Love can make u see what u want see. The cast members playing that look up only makes me more sure, they want you to notice and reach Petyr's conclusion. Having the dreamy girl of season one arc into the person that outschemes Baeslis is perfect narrative arc. Remember what he told Sansa about everyone being a better liar than her in King's Landing during the Hands Tourney? Bet she throws these in his face as she pulls the rug from under him.

 

ALL OF THIS.  

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

5 hours ago, KingInTheBay said:

 

Her arc season 7 is clearly gonna be her becoming a master of manipulation, and in so doing outwitting Littlefinger to his demise. She plays up her discontented look during Jon's kitn chant for this reason. Littlefinger, for all his scheming bravado, and despite the fact he knows Sansa can act(he thought her) buys in. Love can make u see what u want see. The cast members playing that look up only makes me more sure, they want you to notice and reach Petyr's conclusion. Having the dreamy girl of season one arc into the person that outschemes Baeslis is perfect narrative arc. Remember what he told Sansa about everyone being a better liar than her in King's Landing during the Hands Tourney? Bet she throws these in his face as she pulls the rug from under him.

Is it though? Because I am pretty sure Sophie has been promising she was going to become a master of manipulation since season 3.

We were told to expect this following her darth Sansa reveal at the end of season 4, and look what happened in season 5.

And then we were told that Sansa would come into her own after season 5 for season 6, and what did she actually do? She cowered in the snow as dogs tried to eat her. She lied to Jon Snow about the Knights of the Vale for, I don't know, reasons? (Plot reasons. So the knights of the Vale would be a "surprise" that was not the least bit surprising in episode 9) and she sat silently while Jon was given her birthright after having so horrifically screwed up his command in the battle before. And you know, I would have been fine if Sansa had been passed up, this being a patriarchy setting and all, had she at the very least been given the opportunity to speak up for Jon herself. But once again Sansa's voice was taken away from her.

As for "playing up her discontented look" ... I wanted to honeypot that myself as well, but D&D say themselves in the Inside the Episode following the finale that there is in fact some jealousy in that look and also that we can anticipate some tension from them in the next season.

I wanted to give this show the benefit of the doubt for so, so, so long regarding Sansa given that she's my favorite character but the show absolutely stomped all over her again this season and the telling is in the fact that when anyone speaks of any "bad ass" female characters from the North, it's Lyanna Mormont they reference ... not Sansa.

[OldGimletEye]

9 minutes ago, Mistress of Lemon Cakes said:

snip

And let's not forget she was going to be a "Boss Ass Individual".

Somebody here needs to learn the concept of under-promising and over-delivering, very badly.

Instead they're doing over-promising and under-delivering.

[Future Null Infinity]

36 minutes ago, Mistress of Lemon Cakes said:

Is it though? Because I am pretty sure Sophie has been promising she was going to become a master of manipulation since season 3

 

24 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And let's not forget she was going to be a "Boss Ass Individual".

I will defend Ms Turner here and saying that she's always saying what the showrunners ordered her to say, she can't really go against the show that made her famous, and Hollywood doesn't like actors who ranted about their shows, it can destroy her career (like katherine heigl) 

if you see this video, you can see that Mr Harington, Mr Cunnigham and Ms Turner are saying exactly the same thing, it's not a coincidence, they are told to say that 

 she's making some hype, it's the job of all the actors in the world
She said many times that she don't have any power on the content of her scripts

53 minutes ago, Mistress of Lemon Cakes said:

We were told to expect this following her darth Sansa reveal at the end of season 4, and look what happened in season 5.

Darth Sansa was the idea of GRRM, and then came D&D, they erased this concept and gave her the jeyne pool story, it was the most non professional thing they ever done, you can't jump from a story to another like that

[Karmarni]

In the long run, what will stand up is the show. What actors say in interviews will be long forgotten. And I agree with @Maid So Fair, it's incredibly hard to figure out, impossible actually, what this show Sansa wants. I can tell more what she might not want, but I can't tell what she does want. They haven't even had her be grateful in any way just for safety. Then they waste their little bit of screen time for conversations about who gets what room. Silly stuff. 

[KingInTheBay]

They always hype their head fakes in the behind the scenes episodes. Trust me, Sansa is gonna out scheme Petyr. Can anyone really believe she's gonna ultimately side with the guy that sold her to Ramsay? Sansa is not going to ride a dragon, Littlefinger is her villian to remove.