SerMixalot Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 21 hours ago, Darkstream said: Well this is just a subjective opinion of the last book which I personally would disagree with. I don't think that ADWD can be objectively judged as a poorly written book. The general discontent for this book, as well as with AFFC, I believe can be attributed to a personal preference in style, rather than a drop in quality. Compounded by the fact that they are transitional in nature and will be viewed far differently when the books that they are transition TOO are released, you know putting these books into perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 21 hours ago, mattpeto said: "When George told us, we were like wow" -Shireen sacrificing Yes he's not involved at all and has no input. [/Sarcasm] Meaning they didn't want to accept responsibility for a controversial issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 13 hours ago, PirateVergo said: Cersei sitting on the throne is bollocks and just another proof of D&D feminist agenda. I honestly think very little of what happened in the show has anything to do with the books, no way Doran get killed off by Ellaria as it was also another feminist bullsnit from D&D to kill one of the most interesting and competent rulers in ASOIAF so they could make women take control of Dorne. Also no way that the North conflict play out the same as Sansa isn't even involved in it and it's unlikely the Vale even put their heads into that mess, I believe Stannis won't die and neither will Roose, no need to force a Jon vs Ramsay storyline by killing off the more competent leaders that are on each of their sides. The only storyline I believe will be very similar to the show one is Danerys', other than that I'm expecting a totally different story. Just so it is clear, what D&D are doing on the show with regards to women has nothing to do with a "Feminist agenda". Though I will freely admit they may THINK it is. It is NOT feminist to make women into essentially men with teats, it is not feminist to make women murderous thugs, it is not feminist to have rape be empowering. If the show runners THINK that is feminist then they are sorely wrong and sadly reminiscent of a large part of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 On 30 June 2016 at 8:20 PM, Darkstream said: Well this is just a subjective opinion of the last book which I personally would disagree with. I don't think that ADWD can be objectively judged as a poorly written book. The general discontent for this book, as well as with AFFC, I believe can be attributed to a personal preference in style, rather than a drop in quality. Isn't everything a subjective opinion? Just like your opinion of the show, for example, where you are in a minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 2 hours ago, SerMixalot said: Just so it is clear, what D&D are doing on the show with regards to women has nothing to do with a "Feminist agenda". Though I will freely admit they may THINK it is. It is NOT feminist to make women into essentially men with teats, it is not feminist to make women murderous thugs, it is not feminist to have rape be empowering. If the show runners THINK that is feminist then they are sorely wrong and sadly reminiscent of a large part of society. What is it then? It's certainly no longer about equality that's for sure.... I do agree the books and show have nothing to do with feminism though. It's about individuals some of whom happen to be male, some female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 8 hours ago, Ser Gareth said: Isn't everything a subjective opinion? Just like your opinion of the show, for example, where you are in a minority. Umm, no, everything is not subjective. My opinion on whether the show is enjoyable and entertaining to watch is subjective. My analyse of the show using established academic literary standards is objective, and based on facts, not personal opinion. When judged by these standards, Got fails miserably in every way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, Darkstream said: Umm, no, everything is not subjective. My opinion on whether the show is enjoyable and entertaining to watch is subjective. My analyse of the show using established literary standards is objective, and based on facts, not personal opinion. When judged by these standards, Got fails miserably in every way. Facts? Sure, whatever you say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 23 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said: What is it then? It's certainly no longer about equality that's for sure.... I do agree the books and show have nothing to do with feminism though. It's about individuals some of whom happen to be male, some female. Equality??? Not sure you understand what feminism is. In terms of literature it means female characters that are their own characters, that exist and are motivated by their own perspectives and experiences. It means that the women don't solely exist as props to propel the male character story or exist for purposes of sex. It means that a female character has strength and value without having to resort to acting "masculine". All stuff that ASOIAF aspires too so I believe that the books, yes are feminist in that regard. That cannot be said for the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 16 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said: Facts? Sure, whatever you say! GoT is great spectacle GoT is NOT great story telling. And yes there are objective measures for good storytelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 11 hours ago, Ser Gareth said: Facts? Sure, whatever you say! Yes, facts, those are all the countless details that you so conveniently ignore and dispute. fact/fakt noun plural noun: facts a thing that is indisputably the case. -used in discussing the significance of something that is the case. -a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 7 minutes ago, Darkstream said: Yes, facts, those are all the countless details that you so conveniently ignore and dispute. fact fakt/ noun plural noun: facts a thing that is indisputably the case. -used in discussing the significance of something that is the case. -a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article. Yeah, you haven't produced facts. You present your opinion as facts but it's just your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 18 minutes ago, SerMixalot said: GoT is great spectacle GoT is NOT great story telling. And yes there are objective measures for good storytelling Neither are great story telling. The books started out as great story telling (OK ACOK wasn't that great) but recent instalments haven't been great story telling at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 21 minutes ago, SerMixalot said: Equality??? Not sure you understand what feminism is. In terms of literature it means female characters that are their own characters, that exist and are motivated by their own perspectives and experiences. It means that the women don't solely exist as props to propel the male character story or exist for purposes of sex. It means that a female character has strength and value without having to resort to acting "masculine". All stuff that ASOIAF aspires too so I believe that the books, yes are feminist in that regard. That cannot be said for the show. No and no. I hate the phrase acting masculine. It's such BS. It's the way a certain person acts (male or female) to get to that level. Most men aren't like that and most women aren't like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 11 hours ago, SerMixalot said: Equality??? Not sure you understand what feminism is. In terms of literature it means female characters that are their own characters, that exist and are motivated by their own perspectives and experiences. It means that the women don't solely exist as props to propel the male character story or exist for purposes of sex. It means that a female character has strength and value without having to resort to acting "masculine". All stuff that ASOIAF aspires too so I believe that the books, yes are feminist in that regard. That cannot be said for the show. My understanding of feminism is that it is the assertion for women to be treated as equals, to be judged as people, as human beings, and not by their gender. To me, a feminist, or an "empowered woman" is someone to be looked up to and admired. As SerMixalot said, a women who has strength and value, a women who is confident and assertive with her value as a human being. A woman who has feelings and desires. The woman in the novels are presented with these types of attributes. This is why I can look up to and admire characters like Catlyn Stark, Brienne of Tarth, Arianne Martell, and many others. In the books the women (and the men) are presented as real people, with real emotions, real desires and motivations. They are realistic representations of what makes any person an individual and a human being. The show represent woman in the polar opposite perspective. They are portrayed as one dimensional cardboard Caricatures strait out of a comic book. I don't find any of the women in the show to be admirable or empowered at all. I don't think that murder and revenge are traits to be looked up to and thought of as cool and bad-ass. I don't respect or admire a woman because she is sassy, and has bad pussy, and is willing to murder her family because her desire for revenge is so overwhelming that she finds it justifiable to kill an innocent person for not exacting revenge himself. I don't think it is moral, or responsible to portray the experience of being brutally raped and abused as a catalyst of character growth and development for that individual. The women on the show should be locked up in a penitentiary or an insane asylum, not being looked up to and admired as empowered women and role-models. It is very disturbing that someone can commit mass murder and acts of revengeful torture and be praised and looked up to as a bad-ass empowered woman that represents feminism. Not only do d$d not succeed in their faux attempt to appease criticism of their depiction of woman, but they are actively causing harm and regression to the feminist movement, which would be to advocate equal rights and equality of all people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said: Yeah, you haven't produced facts. You present your opinion as facts but it's just your opinion. I'm not going to waste my time listing a bunch of blatantly obvious flaws in the show that have been documented over and over again in this very forum, and that I know you are already aware of, and constantly ignore and honey pot explanations for (which are not portrayed in the show, which means it's bad story telling). If you want to post a willfully obtuse statement in a weak attempt to discredit my assertion, I can only be bothered enough to tell you to try reading a few of the nine hundred plus comments posted since Sunday night that list these facts that you so eagerly want to deny the existence of. ETA: make that eighteen hundred plus posts, I forgot about the second thread dedicated to discussing the facts of what is flawed in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Ugh this thread was supposed to talk about Cersei's Ascension to the Iron Throne, not whatever the fuck this is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I am sorry that you are bothered by the natural tendency of a discussion to evolve into covering a wider spectrum of issues. The differences in GRRM's writing and d$d's, I feel, is a valid point in discerning whether No way in Seven hells is this happening in the books, which is the title of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 35 minutes ago, Darkstream said: I am sorry that you are bothered by the natural tenancy of a discussion to evolve into covering a wider spectrum of issues. The differences in GRRM's writing and d$d's, I feel, is a valid point in discerning whether No way in Seven hells is this happening in the books, which is the title of this thread. Yes but there is a difference between comparing writing styles and insulting people and their opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, dsug said: Yes but there is a difference between comparing writing styles and insulting people and their opinions. I don't believe I did any such thing, are you accusing me of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 20 minutes ago, Darkstream said: I don't believe I did any such thing, are you accusing me of this? Yes. You are being extremely condescending towards other users and it's unnecessary and extremely tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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