Aejon Targaryen???

[Lord Lyman]

15 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Maybe the importance was that a son of Rhaegar, who is the promised prince, would be named Aegon.  My understanding is that Jon was born after the older brother Aegon was killed, so the name was given to the new son. 

Maybe. 

Personally I think it's either Aemon or Jaherys 

The only issue I see with that is, Rhaegar died before Aegon did. Did word ever reach the Tower of Joy about their deaths?

[Lurid Jester]

Just now, Lord Lyman said:

The only issue I see with that is, Rhaegar died before Aegon did. Did word ever reach the Tower of Joy about their deaths?

Good question, although the kingsguard seemed well informed for being stuck out in Nowhere, Dorn for however long they were there. 

[King Ragnar]

His last name would be Blackfyre right? Since he's a Targ bastard he won't be named Waters, Hill or Snow.

[Ersatz]

1 hour ago, Ser Bronn Blackfyre said:

His last name would be Blackfyre right? Since he's a Targ bastard he won't be named Waters, Hill or Snow.

Blackfyre is a House, and an extinguished one at that.

[Kytheros]

3 hours ago, Ser Bronn Blackfyre said:

His last name would be Blackfyre right? Since he's a Targ bastard he won't be named Waters, Hill or Snow.

Nope. The Blackfyres are the descendants of Daemon Blackfyre, one of Aegon the Unworthy's many "Great Bastards". They launched several attempts to take the Iron Throne, but in the last one they were extinguished in the male line per the books.

 

Jon as a bastard Targaryen would still be Snow. The only way he's not a Snow is by being Legitimate (and thus a normal Targaryen) or by taking a new name, ala Daemon Waters=> Daemon Blackfyre, or maybe the Graystarks (I don't remember if the Graystarks were founded by a trueborn or a bastard).

[Cron]

2 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Nope. The Blackfyres are the descendants of Daemon Blackfyre, one of Aegon the Unworthy's many "Great Bastards". They launched several attempts to take the Iron Throne, but in the last one they were extinguished in the male line per the books.

 

Jon as a bastard Targaryen would still be Snow. The only way he's not a Snow is by being Legitimate (and thus a normal Targaryen) or by taking a new name, ala Daemon Waters=> Daemon Blackfyre, or maybe the Graystarks (I don't remember if the Graystarks were founded by a trueborn or a bastard).

I could be wrong (and not saying you're wrong), but as far as Jon's bastard name goes, wouldn't he be Jon Sand?

This is b/c, I thought, the name comes NOT from where a bastard's parents are from, but b/c of where the bastard was born, and we now know Jon was born in Dorne, and thus I think his bastard last name may be Sand.

(Although, of course, his trueborn name is most likely Aejon Targaryen.  HARRR!!!)

[Blueroses]

6 hours ago, Cron said:

I could be wrong (and not saying you're wrong), but as far as Jon's bastard name goes, wouldn't he be Jon Sand?

This is b/c, I thought, the name comes NOT from where a bastard's parents are from, but b/c of where the bastard was born, and we now know Jon was born in Dorne, and thus I think his bastard last name may be Sand.

(Although, of course, his trueborn name is most likely Aejon Targaryen.  HARRR!!!)

Even as Ned Stark's bastard son supposedly fathered in the war in the south, Jon had got the name Snow.

Commoner people bastards don't get any family name, only bastards born of a highborn parent (or two). So I suppose they just take to bastard name that goes with the house that claims them.

Jon will eventually have a proper family/house name, he has been always dreaming of being a Stark, I think he will discover his lineage at the moment he may think to take the Stark or a Star-related name... We'll see. As for his "true" first name, I prefer Aemon over Aejon.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

48 minutes ago, Blueroses said:

Even as Ned Stark's bastard son supposedly fathered in the war in the south, Jon had got the name Snow.

Commoner people bastards don't get any family name, only bastards born of a highborn parent (or two). So I suppose they just take to bastard name that goes with the house that claims them.

Jon will eventually have a proper family/house name, he has been always dreaming of being a Stark, I think he will discover his lineage at the moment he may think to take the Stark or a Star-related name... We'll see. As for his "true" first name, I prefer Aemon over Aejon.

I agree. The rules on bastard surnames are not clear cut. It seems they can have the name from their mothers place of birth, their fathers place of birth, or their own place of birth. Possibly they can take the name for the place they grew up even if they weren't born there? I don't know but we have Ramsay & Jon Snow named for their fathers place of birth (maybe Ramsay was born in the north? I can't remember.) Mya Stone, iirc, is for her own & her mother's place of birth & all of the sand snakes have Sand for their father regardless of who their mother is. It seems they kind of just do what they want. 

This is from the wiki: 

The surname a bastard received appears to be connected to the location the child is raised, though this is not a consistent rule. Because of this, bastards who are half-siblings might have different surnames. For example, King Robert I Baratheon's eldest bastard, born in the Vale, is called Mya Stone, while his bastard from the stormlands (fathered on a noblewoman from the Reach) is called Edric Storm. However, whilst Aegor Rivers was raised at Stone Hedge in theriverlands, his half-brother Brynden, was also called Rivers, despite having lived at least the first few years of his life with his mother atKing's Landing in the Crownlands.^[10]

[Kytheros]

8 hours ago, Cron said:

I could be wrong (and not saying you're wrong), but as far as Jon's bastard name goes, wouldn't he be Jon Sand?

This is b/c, I thought, the name comes NOT from where a bastard's parents are from, but b/c of where the bastard was born, and we now know Jon was born in Dorne, and thus I think his bastard last name may be Sand.

(Although, of course, his trueborn name is most likely Aejon Targaryen.  HARRR!!!)

Normally, Bastard Names are from where the bastard spends most of their time growing up/their formative years, or where "home" is associated with during that time. There are some anomalies, of course, but It may also be which parent (or side of the family) they or the adults around them associate them with or as being most alike. And that usually winds up being consistent with where they're raised.

[Cron]

16 hours ago, Blueroses said:

Even as Ned Stark's bastard son supposedly fathered in the war in the south, Jon had got the name Snow.

Commoner people bastards don't get any family name, only bastards born of a highborn parent (or two). So I suppose they just take to bastard name that goes with the house that claims them.

Jon will eventually have a proper family/house name, he has been always dreaming of being a Stark, I think he will discover his lineage at the moment he may think to take the Stark or a Star-related name... We'll see. As for his "true" first name, I prefer Aemon over Aejon.

Well, you could be right, but I'm not sure we know for a fact that Ned claimed that Jon was born in the south.

He was VERY secretive about it, wouldn't even tell Robert details, other than a claimed name of the mother.  I recall in Season One (and I think it's in AGOT, too) on the way south from Winterfell when the caravan stopped and Robert and Ned were eating, Robert specifically was asking about more details, and Ned wouldn't tell him pretty much anything other than the claimed name of Jon's alleged mother.

I thought the bastard name was based on where someone is BORN, but maybe I'm flat out wrong.  Maybe it is dependent on where a high born parent lives or was born or something.

[Cron]

15 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Normally, Bastard Names are from where the bastard spends most of their time growing up/their formative years, or where "home" is associated with during that time. There are some anomalies, of course, but It may also be which parent (or side of the family) they or the adults around them associate them with or as being most alike. And that usually winds up being consistent with where they're raised.

So, in other words, what you're saying is that there IS NO single correct answer.

I believe you, especially b/c you seem very knowledgeable about ASOIAF, but what's your source for that?  Cuz I'm not aware of enough empirical evidence to deduce all that from the books or show, but maybe that's just b/c it's been so long since I read the books (I read all the books twice, but the last time was 5 years ago).

[Blueroses]

2 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, you could be right, but I'm not sure we know for a fact that Ned claimed that Jon was born in the south.

He was VERY secretive about it, wouldn't even tell Robert details, other than a claimed name of the mother.  I recall in Season One (and I think it's in AGOT, too) on the way south from Winterfell when the caravan stopped and Robert and Ned were eating, Robert specifically was asking about more details, and Ned wouldn't tell him pretty much anything other than the claimed name of Jon's alleged mother.

I thought the bastard name was based on where someone is BORN, but maybe I'm flat out wrong.  Maybe it is dependent on where a high born parent lives or was born or something.

Well, Jon is a fortnight (or so) younger than Robb which means he was conceinved in the same time or shortly after him.

Ned and Cat got married in the Riverrun then Ned went south to the war (before that Ned was in the Eyrie, wasn't he ?), so it's pretty obvious that Jon could not have been conceinved in the North and if I don't think anybody believes Ned would have been travelling with a very pregnant woman from the "South" just for her to give birth in the North before ditching her.

[Kytheros]

6 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, you could be right, but I'm not sure we know for a fact that Ned claimed that Jon was born in the south.

He was VERY secretive about it, wouldn't even tell Robert details, other than a claimed name of the mother.  I recall in Season One (and I think it's in AGOT, too) on the way south from Winterfell when the caravan stopped and Robert and Ned were eating, Robert specifically was asking about more details, and Ned wouldn't tell him pretty much anything other than the claimed name of Jon's alleged mother.

I thought the bastard name was based on where someone is BORN, but maybe I'm flat out wrong.  Maybe it is dependent on where a high born parent lives or was born or something.

Ned didn't need to claim Jon was born in the South when he brought Jon to the North with him. Ned did state that Jon was younger than Robb, though, which means his conception was after Ned married Catelyn, which means while Ned was at war in the South.

6 hours ago, Cron said:

So, in other words, what you're saying is that there IS NO single correct answer.

I believe you, especially b/c you seem very knowledgeable about ASOIAF, but what's your source for that?  Cuz I'm not aware of enough empirical evidence to deduce all that from the books or show, but maybe that's just b/c it's been so long since I read the books (I read all the books twice, but the last time was 5 years ago).

Sort of, yeah. There's the customary practice that bastard names are usually where the bastard is raised, but there's no hard and fast rule about it, leaving it a rule of thumb. Especially since where a bastard gets raised normally corresponds with where one or both parents is from, which contributes to a lack of definitive clarity on the matter. At least, I can't think of a bastard raised where neither parent was from.

Actually ... the closest we get is probably Jon - actually born in Dorne, officially born "somewhere in the South", mom actually a Stark/Northerner, dad actually a Targaryen/Crownslander, mom officially not identified, dad officially a Stark/Northerner, raised in the North, bastard name of Snow.

Actually, I think there might be some SSMs on bastard names, but I don't think that it's all in one place.

[CrypticWeirwood]

If we want to know what FakeJon’s name truly is, we should look for clues laid down for us by Martin over the past twenty years. After all, the author has always known what it is, and he has probably told us as much — secretly.

As with so very many other elements in this tale, once we learn the answer, all the subtle foreshadowing clues Martin always employs will stand out in Stark relief.

[Cron]

9 hours ago, Blueroses said:

Well, Jon is a fortnight (or so) younger than Robb which means he was conceinved in the same time or shortly after him.

Ned and Cat got married in the Riverrun then Ned went south to the war (before that Ned was in the Eyrie, wasn't he ?), so it's pretty obvious that Jon could not have been conceinved in the North and if I don't think anybody believes Ned would have been travelling with a very pregnant woman from the "South" just for her to give birth in the North before ditching her.

Jon is only two weeks or so younger than Robb?

You could be right, but I thought they were about a year apart.

Is anybody positive about this?

Also, frankly, I think there's enough wiggle room in the timelines for Jon to have been (theoretically) both conceived and born in the north.   Even two weeks gives plenty of travel time, even assuming gestation periods for both Robb and Jon were virtually identical (9 months, presumably)

[Lord Lyman]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 1:45 PM, Cron said:

Jon is only two weeks or so younger than Robb?

You could be right, but I thought they were about a year apart.

Is anybody positive about this?

Also, frankly, I think there's enough wiggle room in the timelines for Jon to have been (theoretically) both conceived and born in the north.   Even two weeks gives plenty of travel time, even assuming gestation periods for both Robb and Jon were virtually identical (9 months, presumably)

I think the age difference is closer to 3-4 months with Robb being older.

Catelyn and Eddard marry and Robb is conceived. He goes off to war which last about a year. Jon was born about month after the sack.

[Kytheros]

13 minutes ago, Lord Lyman said:

I think the age difference is closer to 3-4 months with Robb being older.

Catelyn and Eddard marry and Robb is conceived. He goes off to war which last about a year. Jon was born about month after the sack.

Ned and Cat got married after the war started. Ned was in the Vale, went to the North, called the banners, and marched south with his army, and then got married. But the war started and fighting was happening in the Vale and the Stormlands before the wedding, not just afterwards.

Robb and Jon are very close in age, and Robb is reportedly the older of the two. I think the age difference is about a month, give or take. Not multiple months.

 

On 7/17/2016 at 0:45 PM, Cron said:

Jon is only two weeks or so younger than Robb?

You could be right, but I thought they were about a year apart.

Is anybody positive about this?

Also, frankly, I think there's enough wiggle room in the timelines for Jon to have been (theoretically) both conceived and born in the north.   Even two weeks gives plenty of travel time, even assuming gestation periods for both Robb and Jon were virtually identical (9 months, presumably)

The "about a year" difference you're thinking about is probably Robb/Jon and Daenerys (~9 months). Or the approximate length of the Rebellion.

Robb and Jon are always said to be about the same age. And they have to be. Jon was born within a month of the Sack. Robb was conceived less than a year earlier, when Ned and Catelyn got married some months after the war had started. I think the age difference is a month or so at most, but the most if could be is only a two or three months.

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

Do we have any reason to actually believe that Robb was born first?

[Vhaegon Targaryen I]

17 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Ned and Cat got married after the war started. Ned was in the Vale, went to the North, called the banners, and marched south with his army, and then got married. But the war started and fighting was happening in the Vale and the Stormlands before the wedding, not just afterwards.

Robb and Jon are very close in age, and Robb is reportedly the older of the two. I think the age difference is about a month, give or take. Not multiple months.

 

The "about a year" difference you're thinking about is probably Robb/Jon and Daenerys (~9 months). Or the approximate length of the Rebellion.

Robb and Jon are always said to be about the same age. And they have to be. Jon was born within a month of the Sack. Robb was conceived less than a year earlier, when Ned and Catelyn got married some months after the war had started. I think the age difference is a month or so at most, but the most if could be is only a two or three months.

 

According to:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

Robb turns 15 on 9/13 of 298 while jon turned 15 on 8/2 of 298. This shows that jon is older, but the timeline isn't canon. However, it, to the most part, is accurate in the chronolgy of events.

[GravyFace]

It's Aerys. 

You can read her lips if you know what to look for.

The name starts with "Ae" as you can see her mouth open with the A formation.

Then her lips curl inward to produce the "r" sound. You can tell it's not Aegon because her mouth isn't forming the g, it's definitely not Jahaerys, and it's definitely not Aejon as she's not forming the J. She doesn't close her mouth to produce the M in Aemon, so it's not that either.

 

And the actress confirmed that she actually spoke actual dialogue that was muted, so the actual name was said. They didn't just give her jibberish to say.