Dawn

[Smoke317]

8 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I am all about the tinfoil stuff, really. I love it. However, I just don't buy this. I think it is far more likely that Edric will be the next sword of the morning. If you go back in any of the family histories of the high lords of westeros you will find some connection through marriage.

 

ALso, yes, GRRM does make Arthur and Rhaegar as close friends very clear but not so in the show and, as people who are fans of the abysmal writing in the show constantly remind us, it is two separate universes.

The gymnastics it takes to make Jon Sword of the Morning are pretty extreme and the pay off is not really that great. I won't venture a guess about the show, but I think in the books it is more likely that Arthur Dayne is still alive and hiding out in Blackhaven with his sister (Lord Beric's fiancé) and has been since howland reed brokered a peace based on jon at the tower of joy.

I think the TOJ reveal will come when Edric takes Beric back to Blackhaven to be buried and meets, is trained by, knighted by and named sword of the morning by Arthur Dayne who, before dying, tells him the truth of the tower of joy.

Further, I believe that longclaw is actually blackfyre and was stashed at the wall by Bloodraven when he was LC of the Nights watch.

 

That sets up a friendship of Jon and Edric the way there was a friendship between Rhaegar Targ and Arthur.

 

I honestly think that it is a much more likely scenario and one that actually has a much higher pay off.

 

Interesting theories. But if Bloodraven left a sword at the wall it would be dark sister. Blackfyre was a Greatsword like Dawn & Ice. While Dark Sister & Longclaw were a little smaller or a bastard blade like Mormont called it. I just think that with Jorah still living, Jon will return Longclaw to him and the Mormont family when they eventually meet up. Jon will find Dawn in the crypts with a letter from Rhaegar explaining his destiny. I think it's very telling that when Jon first starts to notice his warging powers in the books he's North of the wall with Qhorin and later with Ygritte. He mentions the constellation the Sword of the Morning multiple times. And notes how the coming of the "dawn" drives away the darkness. The only problem I'm having is that GRRM says that Dawn is still at Starfall.  But if it truly is in the crypts of Winterfell what else would he say???  Saying it's missing or it's somewhere else would be a dead giveaway. 

[LadyArwen]

I liked the shot of Dawn next to the bed of blood. Born under a bleeding star, you say? 

[rivers snow]

My hope all along was that Lyanna had run away with Dayne so Jon could be sword of the morning and wield Dawn, just so GRRM could pull one on all of us, but Sunday ended that.

Shame they havent worked in the sword on the show with more meaning its such a great part of the book lore.

[GeorgeIAF]

18 hours ago, YOVMO said:

In the show there is no meat to Rhaegar and Arthur being good friends. Nowhere does it seem that the Dayne house is older than the Targaryen house that I remember, but that is neither here nor there. And in the books the Night's King isn't personified as it is in this garbage tv show. Further, there has never been a sword of the morning that wasn't a Dayne as it is specifically a Dayne custom to call whichever Dayne was proved worthy to carry dawn the sword of the morning.

 

There is an awful lot of shoe horning, mostly unsuccessful, with almost zero pay off to get Jon to wield Dawn. It doesn't make sense in the books nor does it in the show.

Stopped at garbage tv show. Why the hell are you watching then ? More so, why the hell are you here commenting it ? I'm struggling to hold back to say what i really think of people of your kind, because i was warned before and i don't want to receive another warning. I'm frustrated that i spent some minutes of my life replying to you.

[Chib]

3 hours ago, LadyArwen said:

I liked the shot of Dawn next to the bed of blood. Born under a bleeding star, you say? 

Yes this detail I have noticed. I don't think Jon will use Dawn any day. But it has some metaphorical meaning here. 

[tugela]

15 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

According to GRRM they are not Valyrians. The Targs have Dayne blood and not the other way around.

The Daynes are way older than the Valyrians. That doesn't mean that they don't have common ancestors however. That fact that both have purple eyes in at least some of the current generation means that there was a common ancestor somewhere.

There is a theory that both groups are descendants of the original Azor Ahai, and consequently the reborn Azor Ahai could come from either the Daynes or the Targaryens. Daenaerys may be the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara, which would give her potentially a double shot.

[tugela]

15 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

The camera focused only briefly on the sword for one reason-- because Jon, Bran or someone will find Dawn in the Stark crypts. 

This talk of the Dayne prophecy is amusing. It doesn't bear out in the show, and in the books it simply doesn't exist. Ser Arthur Dayne had the handle of the Sword of the Morning because of his greatsword named Dawn. Now, while the sword itself is unusual since it was made from the metal of a fallen star, there are zero prophecies that accompany it or the Daynes. Not in the show, or the books. 

Any 'deep theorizing' in this forum to substantiate it is just that. Wishes and fishes.

The prophecy specifically refers to Azor Ahai being born as the red star bleeds. Red = Red mountains of Dorne (where the Daynes live); star = Arthur Dayne (house sigil is a star); bleeding = Arthur Dayne dying at the tower of joy. So the prophecy does match the Daynes.

[tugela]

15 hours ago, YOVMO said:

 

Further, I believe that longclaw is actually blackfyre and was stashed at the wall by Bloodraven when he was LC of the Nights watch.

 

 

Longclaw is the ancestral sword of the Mormonts, and was in their possession for 500 years. They had it before Blackfyre even arrived on Westeros.

[tugela]

4 hours ago, rivers snow said:

My hope all along was that Lyanna had run away with Dayne so Jon could be sword of the morning and wield Dawn, just so GRRM could pull one on all of us, but Sunday ended that.

Shame they havent worked in the sword on the show with more meaning its such a great part of the book lore.

Never was any chance of that. The kingsguard specifically told Ned that they were there on orders, so it was never a case of Lyanna running of with Dayne.

[Spaßvogel]

21 hours ago, Drago said:

Interesting theory but still doesn't explain why need had to protect Jon from Robert.

Uh, Robert would have murdered Jon, if he knew he was Rhaegar's son, whose birth furthermore, got Lyanna, (Robert's great love) killed.  They started a whole war because of Rhaegar running off with Lyanna.

[Tinker Tanner]

In the show i cant really see the point of dawn when Valyrian still kills WW with one hit. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

The Daynes are way older than the Valyrians.

I know.

2 hours ago, tugela said:

That doesn't mean that they don't have common ancestors however. That fact that both have purple eyes in at least some of the current generation means that there was a common ancestor somewhere.

I agree. I believe that the Daynes are the ancestors of the Valyrians.

2 hours ago, tugela said:

There is a theory that both groups are descendants of the original Azor Ahai, and consequently the reborn Azor Ahai could come from either the Daynes or the Targaryens. Daenaerys may be the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara, which would give her potentially a double shot.

I am sure that this isn't how it works. By your logic anyone with incestuous Targ granparents have "double shot".

[Drago]

1 hour ago, Spaßvogel said:

Uh, Robert would have murdered Jon, if he knew he was Rhaegar's son, whose birth furthermore, got Lyanna, (Robert's great love) killed.  They started a whole war because of Rhaegar running off with Lyanna.

Yeah sorry after reading the original I realise I made a mistake there.

[YOVMO]

10 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Interesting theories. But if Bloodraven left a sword at the wall it would be dark sister.

While bloodraven was the one who wielded darksister in his lifetime, it would most likely have been taken from him before he was sent to the wall. Also, darksister was a longsword not a bastard or hand and a half sword.

Quote

Blackfyre was a Greatsword like Dawn & Ice.

Blackfyre, on the other hand, was in fact a bastard sword just like longclaw. Not only that but it is described in ways that are different than other VS swords but similar to longclaw. For instance, long claw is described as having a "blade so that ripples gleamed in the smoke-dark metal" --Samwell I AFFC and in SSM blackfyre is described as "somewhat larger and darker than the other two (VS swords) and its design needs to suggest flames"  Several times the darkness of the steel in both longclaw and blackfyre seem to be pointed out as differentiating them from other VS swords.

 

Remember also that Blackfyre was used by Aegon IV to legitimize his bastards which makes it nice tidy that Jon would wind up with blackfyre, a bastard sword that has been used to legitimize bastards and give them claims to the throne.

 

(sorry, for some reason lost cut edit ability)

 

Anyway, I find the whole chain of custody of longclaw highly implausible. First, it is 500 years which means that the Mormonts, a poor family which was given their home by the starks, had a VS ancestral sword prior to the starks getting Ice. I think it is odd that after Jorah's exile that Lady Mormont would send the ancestral sword of the mormonts to Jeor who took the black and renounced family claims rather than leave it in the house that it was a talisman for for 500 years. Andeven if so it is extremely odd that a man like Jeor would then give his ancestral sword to Jon. It isn't like Mormont house was in any danger of extinction.

It all adds up to the idea that the Mormont sword being stuck in a closet in the lord commanders tower and then givento jon after a new pommel is fashioned is odd.

Further, the chain of custody of Blackfyre ends with Bloodraven. The very last first hand account we have of Blackfyre is from Ser Eustance in the sworn sword. "Young Aemon took up blackgyre when the blade slipped form his dying father's fingers, so bloodraven slew him too." Then in WOIAF we have "this was followed by bittersteel's mad charge, with blackfyre in his hand, as he attempted to rally Daemon's forces. Meeting with bloodraven in the midst of the charge, a mighty duel ensued, which left bloodraven blinded in one eye and sent bittersteel fleeing."

Bittersteel claims to have the sword. But he has named Daemon II as king and Daemon was never given the sword to wield. The most likely reason being that when he fleed from Bloodraven he didn't have the sword and bloodraven did. He concealed it knowing it was a birthright for kings and brought it with him to the wall years later when sent there. After becoming LC he left it in the tower of the LC.

I figure that one of two things has happened. Knowledge that blackfyre was in the lord commanders tower has passed from LC to LC since the time of bloodraven and, through Ned, Jeor knew that R+L=J and, while he wasn't ready to give Jon that information, he did give him the sword with a bs story. Another possibility is that the sword has been in hiding. It is pretty clear that Bloodraven has been warging or skinchanging into Mormont's crow and may have been feeding Mormont information about Jon and telling him to pass the sword along.

 

Back to Bittersteel not having the sword, even Lord Butterwell in the mystery night, says this about Daemon II Blackfyre who bittersteel crowned. "He does not bear the sword! If he were his father's son, bittersteel would have armed him with blackfyre" but not if bittersteel didn't have blackfyre.

 

Finally, what is the reason people carry blackfyre? I mean, other than being a VS sword which is an awesome game changer from the start, it is the sword of aegon I and, as such, it is the sword of the king.

 

From the sworn sword "blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conquerer, the blade that every Targaryen king had wielded since the conquest" and "the rightful king, Daemon Blackgyre. The king who bore the sword"

 

GRRM said in an interview that we would infact see blackfyre again.

 

So we have a bastard sword famous for being the sword of kings which happens to have, in its history, a story of legitimizing bastards, that is a smoke color darker than most valyrian steel and we have a bastard who is unaware that he is a king (assuming R+L=J) carrying a bastard VS sword described as a smoke color darker than other VS swords and it was given to him with a very dubious provenance as being a Mormont ancestral sword.

 

 

[YOVMO]

5 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Stopped at garbage tv show. Why the hell are you watching then ? More so, why the hell are you here commenting it ? I'm struggling to hold back to say what i really think of people of your kind, because i was warned before and i don't want to receive another warning. I'm frustrated that i spent some minutes of my life replying to you.

I am sure we can manage do have this conversation in a civil manner. Quite simply: I love this genre. I don't care if a show or a movie has absurdly bad writing, is a sterotype or has shit for internal logic. That's fine. I have probably seen every movie with a freaking dragon or a sword it in like 11 times. I watched some pretty garbage TV because I enjoy it.

Further, the production quality, (most of) the actors, the costumes, the cgi, the score, the general feeling given over with the show is outrageously good. I mean, wow. Fine. Yes. Awesome.

So I will watch this show. I will always watch it.

 

However, asoiaf and the GoT tv show in the first 3 seasons gave us something new. They gave us a story that wasn't bullshit sophomoric writing with cool swords and scripts. They gave us three dimensional characters, shades of gray in everyone, unclear motivations, things you could care about. It wasn't orcs and handsome knights. The logic in the show was complex and interesting and valuable and, honestly, beautiful. The writing, not just books to show  because I think it is fair to call them separate universes and need to be treated on their own merits, in the show for the first few seasons was as close to immaculate as we can get.

 

d&d have betrayed the promise given to fans by basically turning out bullshit writing and falling into the lazy and, frankly, ridiculously amateur plot and character shit that has plagued this great genre.

They took characters with so much depth and so much interest and replaced it with writing more suited to porno or professional wrestling. The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin have the same amount of depth and arc of characters.

And here you are, fuming that someone would feel let down and aggrieved by the disgusting display of writing more suited to a highschool creative writing class than to what will amount to the greatest tapestry of character, intrigue, plot and story of our generation.

No, taking this show and turning it into Pro Wrestling level discourse is not just bad, but it is sad and it shows a fundamental lack of talent and knowledge. Further, it shows the kind of hubris that someone can only have when they are totally insulated from criticism. The arrogance mixed with the lack of talent reminds me of the rich kid in high school who thinks he is legitimately better than everyone else because his parents bought him a fancy car.

The smugness that drips off this writing compared to the total lack of ability that shines through it is cause for anger and people who aren't frankly offended by the writing at this point surprise me.

Don't struggle to hold back what you want to say. I am willing to read dissenting opinions. I am sure you can find a way to express yourself in a way that is in a civil tenor for debate over something we both are obviously invested in and not resort to ad hominem attacking which isn't really what we should be doing.

[Charles Stuart]

I still think there is something down in that crypt which will act as some sort of evidence of Jon's birth. Dawn, Blackfyre, Aegon the Conqueror's crown, I dunno but I believe there is something down there of relevance.

[One Eyed Cat]

On 6/27/2016 at 0:47 AM, GeorgeIAF said:

The sword that Ned lays alongside the bed is Dawn, that's why they focused on it, it is also the sword that Arthur Dayne has before and during the battle, the other one was an usual sword he wielded.

I think that there will be something later on to put Jon in the same scene as Dawn and a connection to the Sword of the Morning as an adult.

 

[TheSmallOther]

20 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

The camera focused only briefly on the sword for one reason-- because Jon, Bran or someone will find Dawn in the Stark crypts. 

This talk of the Dayne prophecy is amusing. It doesn't bear out in the show, and in the books it simply doesn't exist. Ser Arthur Dayne had the handle of the Sword of the Morning because of his greatsword named Dawn. Now, while the sword itself is unusual since it was made from the metal of a fallen star, there are zero prophecies that accompany it or the Daynes. Not in the show, or the books. 

Any 'deep theorizing' in this forum to substantiate it is just that. Wishes and fishes.

I'm sorry, but... Ned went back to Starfall for a single reason - to return Dawn to Daynes. Are you saying Daynes didn't want the sword which was kept within their house for thousands of years? Or that Ned went back to Winterfell and no one noticed The Sword he carried?

[Kenton Stark]

20 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Its a bleeding Star. That is why.

Oh... I like that. Nice catch.

[jrod]

Just now, TheSmallOther said:

I'm sorry, but... Ned went back to Starfall for a single reason - to return Dawn to Daynes. Are you saying Daynes didn't want the sword which was kept within their house for thousands of years? Or that Ned went back to Winterfell and no one noticed The Sword he carried?

That is my problem with this theory as well.  The show does seem to be setting up Dawn for something since they showed it like that, but I can't see what.  I know the show and books are different, quite obviously, but I struggle with them having some insane crazy difference.  In the books Ned took Dawn back to Starfall and gave it to Ashara.  So I struggle to think that in the show it won't be there but somewhere in the North and be a huge plot piece.  Is it possible, sure I guess.  The show has changed somethings that I didn't think there was any way they could (like Aegon ("r" or "f" whichever you believe) and his invasion of Westeros, that is a major plot point that they have just thrown out so far.

Also the crypts are barely mentioned in the show, and not in depth like the books.  So I would find it kind of cheap if all of a sudden a major plot device is just randomly discovered in the crypts.  But the show has done some weird things.