GeorgeIAF

Dawn

142 posts in this topic

On 6/29/2016 at 6:15 AM, tugela said:

No. It will be evidence of nothing. Everyone already knows that Ned killed Arthur Dayne. It is common knowledge. They all know that Dayne was guarding Lyanna as well. What they don't know is that Jon is Lyanna's baby. The sword does not prove that. That he might have took Dawn as war booty would be perfectly normal. It will do absolutely nothing to prove Jon's heritage.

Fair enough. Then it's simply #1 - service to book readers.

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On 6/28/2016 at 4:22 PM, Ser Hyle said:

Oh you guys and your crazy sword theories. This is the board where the show is discussed, remember? They showed Dawn in that scene (and the earlier ToJ scene) for one or both of two reasons:

1. fanservice

2. It will be the evidence (found in the Winterfell crypts) of Jon's parentage

Everything else is clearly too complicated and convoluted for this TV series.

Agreed- its an easter egg for the nerds. Dawn is the bleeding star spoken of in the prophecy.

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On 6/28/2016 at 4:56 PM, YOVMO said:

Like I said, I won't bet against Varys. That is for sure.

Why would you assume Aemon knew? Maybe no one knew and Bloodraven has used psi ability to let Mormont know. THe crow keeps landing on the hilt and saying "king king king" a lot going on. I am not saying it is clear and definitely, I certainly wouldn't bet money on it, but there is something here.

Aemon wasn't always blind. If Bloodraven had it with him when they went to the wall, he would have recognized it. There are just a bit too many hoops to jump through to make this work. If that's what GRRM did, then so be it. 

There would need to be an explanation on why no one has wielded it including bloodraven himself. The sword is meant to be wielded by the king. Jon is not ready for this knowledge. If you think of Jon's position in AGOT when Mormont gives him the blade and the story, the idea that Jon would ever see Bear Island isn't even kind of feasible.

Why not? Jon would be the perfect ambassador to houses of the North when the Wall was in need of men, supplies, etc. To say that it's not FEASIBLE is crazy. To say it's not likely, well I would give you that. To say no one around would be able to call BS on that story, well I don't believe that either. Many Northern houses would have known if the Mormonts did or didn't have a VS sword for 500 years. The fact that Jon himself doesn't question its provenance should tell you something.  

Sorry if I misspoke. The point remains. Why would Maege send longclaw to Jeor. If Longclaw is the ancestral Mormont sword and if Jeor has renounced his name and titles and claim to bear island as well as swore to have no other children. The sword, if an ancestral sword, belongs with the lord or lady of bear island, not with the lord commander of the nights watch and even if it made sense to send it to him why never use it and even if that made sense why in the world would he break a 500 year Mormont family tradition of passing the sword to the head of the house to give it to jon? It isn't like he thinks house Mormont is going to be extinct. It isn't like he is a man who doesn't care about tradition.

Yeah except Jon just saved his life and he has no male heir to pass it down too. Maybe when he has a clearer head he tells him to send it to Bear Island when he's done with it. Or maybe he thinks it's right for the LC to have a VS sword. 

“Jon unsheathed Longclaw and showed it to them, turning it this way and that so they could admire it. The bastard blade glittered in the pale sunlight, dark and deadly.”

-Jon VIII, AGOT

 

“Jon had pressed Longclaw into Sam's hand. He let him feel the lightness, the balance, had him turn the blade so that ripples gleamed in the smoke-dark metal. "Valyrian steel," he said, "spell-forged and razor-sharp, nigh on indestructible.”

-Samwell I, AFFC

“Blackfyre should be somewhat larger and darker than the other two, and its design needs to suggest flames.” -SSM 04/06/04


There are a couple more. Subtle but there. This took 2 seconds to find via a google search.

 

That a non Targaryen would wield Blackfyre as a Queensguard to dany while there is a rightful Targaryen king with a better claim alive seems to me unreasonable.

 

Afterall

 

“….Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conquerer, the blade that every Targaryen king had wielded since the Conquest…..

…The rightful king, Daemon Blackfyre. The King Who Bore the Sword….”

-The Sworn Sword

All those quotes say are the same things that is said about any VS sword. Darker than normal steel. Rippled pattern in the blade. Jon could have said "Hey this one is darker than Ice" but he didn't. 


I don't know. The fact remains that Bittersteel named Daemon II king and Daemon II went to battle without blackfyre which bittersteel supposedly had.

“He does not bear the sword! If he were his father's son, Bittersteel would have armed him with Blackfyre.”

Lord Butterwell, The Mystery Knight, talking about the alleged Daemon II Blackfyre at the tourney at Whitewalls

I wouldn't have given Daemon II Blackfyre either. He was a fool. And not much of a knight. And they were just trying to gather support at the time, not start the war already. 

There is no way there isn't something up with that raven. Even if everything I typed here turns out to be dead wrong, which it could be, there is simply no way that that raven isn't more than it seems. Corn!

No doubt but I can't find any reference to the raven sitting on Longclaw and saying "king". He says king but I didn't see it connected to Longclaw. 

Agree that the bow seems too nice. I think the bow gets better when you realize that jon bites it, never knows he has blackfyre, never becomes king and it is all for naught. Who knows. It can all be wrong. However, I simply can't see Jorah or any non targ wielding BF

 

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19 hours ago, ser naes yennet said:

Arthur wasn't a Dayne heir, once he took the Kings Guard vows.

The Targaryen dynasty was dead, so he would have been released from his vows at the time he died. He had not sworn a vow to Robert Baratheon. He was absolutely eligible as an heir at that point.

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5 hours ago, ErasmusF said:

 

Blackfyre was a long sword, while Longclaw is a bastard sword. They are not the same sword.

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54 minutes ago, tugela said:

The Targaryen dynasty was dead, so he would have been released from his vows at the time he died. He had not sworn a vow to Robert Baratheon. He was absolutely eligible as an heir at that point.

doesn't seem he believed that, given his words to Ned. he was still bound to his vows.

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11 minutes ago, ser naes yennet said:

doesn't seem he believed that, given his words to Ned. he was still bound to his vows.

He could still be acting them out, but he would no longer be bound by them, which means that he would inherit his titles.

He might have an older brother though (he as least one brother, since Arya encounters young Daynes on her travels around the riverlands)

In any event, Arthur was held in high enough regard within the Dayne family to be accorded the honorific "Sword of the Morning", something that rarely was accorded to any of the Dayne men.

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1 hour ago, tugela said:

Blackfyre was a long sword, while Longclaw is a bastard sword. They are not the same sword.

Wrong. They're the same. You can Google it.

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On 6/27/2016 at 1:20 PM, YOVMO said:

ALso, yes, GRRM does make Arthur and Rhaegar as close friends very clear but not so in the show and, as people who are fans of the abysmal writing in the show constantly remind us, it is two separate universes.

The gymnastics it takes to make Jon Sword of the Morning are pretty extreme and the pay off is not really that great. I won't venture a guess about the show, but I think in the books it is more likely that Arthur Dayne is still alive and hiding out in Blackhaven with his sister (Lord Beric's fiancé) and has been since howland reed brokered a peace based on jon at the tower of joy.

I think the TOJ reveal will come when Edric takes Beric back to Blackhaven to be buried and meets, is trained by, knighted by and named sword of the morning by Arthur Dayne who, before dying, tells him the truth of the tower of joy.

Further, I believe that longclaw is actually blackfyre and was stashed at the wall by Bloodraven when he was LC of the Nights watch.

 

That sets up a friendship of Jon and Edric the way there was a friendship between Rhaegar Targ and Arthur.

 

I honestly think that it is a much more likely scenario and one that actually has a much higher pay off.

 

Haha, you are always so forthright with your feelings on the show writing. ;) I feel you though, friend. 

I totally agree with you re: Jon as Sword of the Morning, though I do hope SOMEONE is going to wield the sword, and we did see a blond woman in the background when Ned entered the TOJ so I'm hoping something comes of that. (Or the other woman, but the blond woman was very purposefully there but not visible, so I feel that seems more likely to be meaningful). 

I love your Arthur theory, and I can see it in the books, but in the show we did watch Arthur die, so I think we can at least assume the show won't go there. (Which it turns out you already said. I am good at life.)

Edited by Rumy Stark
Silly mistake

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Quote


twitter-16.png?v=29916?v=139.4chuckbuckethead
Aug. 26th, 2015 06:05 am (UTC)
Hi George,

I'm a big fan of your work and have a question for you: Is Longclaw really Blackfyre, the bastard sword of the Targaryen kings? Searching through the books I found the description of both blades to be almost identical.
Link | Frozen | Thread

7059164
userinfo.gif?v=17080?v=139.4grrm
Aug. 26th, 2015 03:39 pm (UTC)
No.

 

 
Edited by mbuehner

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8 minutes ago, Ghost's Shadow said:

Wrong. They're the same. You can Google it.

Sorry. I has thinking of Dark Sister, which is a long sword and the one that Brynden Rivers had. That is clearly not Longclaw.

Blackfyre is a bastard sword as well, but it is somewhere out in the east, not at the wall.

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10 minutes ago, Rumy Stark said:

Haha, you are always so forthright with your feelings on the show writing. ;) I feel you though, friend. 

I totally agree with you re: Jon as Sword of the Morning, though I do hope SOMEONE is going to wield the sword, and we did see a blond woman in the background when Ned entered the TOJ so I'm hoping something comes of that. (Or the other woman, but the blond woman was very purposefully there but not visible, so I feel that seems more likely to be meaningful). 

I love your Arthur theory, and I can see it in the books, but in the show we did watch Arthur die, so I think we can at least assume the show won't go there. (Which it turns out you already said. I am good at life.)

Lol! Nice edit! Yah. But it would be awesome sauce in the books. "Awesome sauce" btw will be taking the place of Valar Murghulis on the show

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12 minutes ago, Rumy Stark said:

Haha, you are always so forthright with your feelings on the show writing. ;) I feel you though, friend. 

I totally agree with you re: Jon as Sword of the Morning, though I do hope SOMEONE is going to wield the sword, and we did see a blond woman in the background when Ned entered the TOJ so I'm hoping something comes of that. (Or the other woman, but the blond woman was very purposefully there but not visible, so I feel that seems more likely to be meaningful). 

I love your Arthur theory, and I can see it in the books, but in the show we did watch Arthur die, so I think we can at least assume the show won't go there. (Which it turns out you already said. I am good at life.)

Arthur's sister is Ashara, but she has black hair, not blonde.

The role of Edric and Allyria is probably going to be to introduce the idea of Ashara as Daenaery's mother. It is hard to imagine what other function those characters could serve in the show as it has been written out. Essentially to explain the other half of the equation in the arch-storyline, because the mechanisms that set out in the book were not included in the show.

I think that people are too obsessed with the principal characters in the story finding out their real identity, but they don't really need to know that. They are who they are. But it is important for us as viewers to understand the backstory that has led to all of these events. These reveals are for our benefit, not the characters.

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On 27/6/2016 at 7:10 PM, Wh8tl3y said:

I think Dawn is actually Ice. The two swords are the exact same make. Theres no way that Ned's brother or father took it to Kings Landing to fight the Mad King and Ice was returned to Winterfell. It is said that Ned took Dawn back to Dorne but I actually think that they might have told Ned to keep it. If true then that means Breanne and Tommen (Jamie takes it back?) have the two most badass swords in the 7 kingdoms.

I don't think Ice had been carried by any Straks, before Ned, to KL. Ice and Dawn are completly different, Dawn was pale and Ice was dark, also Ice was enormous, the height of a man. Actually those great swords like Ice were usually not used in close combat.

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2 hours ago, tugela said:

Arthur's sister is Ashara, but she has black hair, not blonde.

The role of Edric and Allyria is probably going to be to introduce the idea of Ashara as Daenaery's mother. It is hard to imagine what other function those characters could serve in the show as it has been written out. Essentially to explain the other half of the equation in the arch-storyline, because the mechanisms that set out in the book were not included in the show.

I think that people are too obsessed with the principal characters in the story finding out their real identity, but they don't really need to know that. They are who they are. But it is important for us as viewers to understand the backstory that has led to all of these events. These reveals are for our benefit, not the characters.

I think the Dayne kids could play a big role in the show in the sense that they will be the setup for explaining the Sowrd of the Morning. I also expect Sam to find out about TSOTM in Oldtown.  He'll learn from history that a Sword of the Morning ended the Long Night and wielded the Greatsword Dawn. This will be happening while the Dayne's are introduced most likely to Dany in Dorne.  They will fill Dany in on their family history and the connection between the Dayne's and Targs. At the same time, Jon may find Dawn in the crypts. I think this could make for an excellent story next season. Or say Dawn is at Starfall, and Dany or the Dayne's give it to Jon when they make their alliance. Then Jon can return Longclaw to the Mormonts through Jorah. I fully expect Dawn to have a reddish hue or maybe even be flaming when Jon wields it in his final fight vs the Night King. 

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On 6/27/2016 at 4:34 AM, Smoke317 said:

I posted in another thread. I think Jon is a Targaryen. But here's how it may work out. Dayne house is even older than Targ house. Dayne's also have Valyrian blood. In fact through marriage, Jon even had Dayne blood as a Targ married a Dayne and Rhaegar would eventually come from this line.  I believe Arthur and Rhaegar being best friends probably discussed their family prophecies. Targ-Prince that was Promised. Dayne-Sword of the Morning.  And realized the prophecies are the same. In fact the Targ prophecy is probably an off shoot of the Dayne's. So they realized that TPTWP would one day wield the GreatSword Dawn and become TSOTM and battle against the Night King and end the Long Night. So Jon will fulfill both prophecies and will wield Dawn in the end. 

grrm has stated that house daynes trait of dark blue/purple eyes is not a valyrian trait. 

Fan: Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. ;)

GRRM: I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes...look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

Fan: So many banners, I was shooting in the dark. And I was actually arguing that she was a Liz Taylor type. Thanks. :)

GRRM: If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are...well, neith (sic) Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

 

There's more here.

 

https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3txah7/spoilers_all_purples_eyes_dont_necessarily_mean/

It's very interesting. I am very curious about dawn and the role it will play. It's so mysterious. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, brightflame princess said:

grrm has stated that house daynes trait of dark blue/purple eyes is not a valyrian trait. 

Fan: Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. ;)

GRRM: I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes...look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

Fan: So many banners, I was shooting in the dark. And I was actually arguing that she was a Liz Taylor type. Thanks. :)

GRRM: If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are...well, neith (sic) Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

 

There's more here.

 

https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3txah7/spoilers_all_purples_eyes_dont_necessarily_mean/

It's very interesting. I am very curious about dawn and the role it will play. It's so mysterious. 

 

 

Nice find. 

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2 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Nice find. 

I just had a crazy theory.. maybe the daynes are aliens ha ha. It could explain dawn maybe lol

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8 minutes ago, brightflame princess said:

I just had a crazy theory.. maybe the daynes are aliens ha ha. It could explain dawn maybe lol

Well Dawn was forged from a meteor...  So I guess it's extra-terrestrial...

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37 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Well Dawn was forged from a meteor...  So I guess it's extra-terrestrial...

They don’t call it Starfall for nothing, you know.

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