Not Confirmed

[facelessaryas]

1 minute ago, Damitol said:

99.9% that the baby and Jon are one and the same, but I think they decided to leave that .1% of doubt with the muffled dialog to give them an escape hatch should the WoW book come out in the next few months, and George decides to go a different way.  Remember that  Dan and Dave got the job (in part) by guessing Jon Snow's mother, but now that R+L=J has been a popular fan very for a while, George could decide to change things up, and this gives the show a chance to do the same for consistency.

4 minutes ago, Damitol said:

99.9% that the baby and Jon are one and the same, but I think they decided to leave that .1% of doubt with the muffled dialog to give them an escape hatch should the WoW book come out in the next few months, and George decides to go a different way.  Remember that  Dan and Dave got the job (in part) by guessing Jon Snow's mother, but now that R+L=J has been a popular fan very for a while, George could decide to change things up, and this gives the show a chance to do the same for consistency.

That seems a very strange thing to do now we're at the end 

[Pile-O-Starks]

4 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I'm asking what's the point of the Dayne's in the book. Thought that was pretty obvious.......

I feel like this is a strange question. Arthur Dayne is largely mentioned in relation to ToJ and as a great swordsman; there's never any indication that he's central to any plot or mystery. Ashara Dayne is only mentioned as killing herself due to grief (or something), but not much beyond that, other than Selmy being in love with her.

I don't think they have much of a point.

[White Harbors Wrath]

5 minutes ago, Damitol said:

99.9% that the baby and Jon are one and the same, but I think they decided to leave that .1% of doubt with the muffled dialog to give them an escape hatch should the WoW book come out in the next few months, and George decides to go a different way.  Remember that  Dan and Dave got the job (in part) by guessing Jon Snow's mother, but now that R+L=J has been a popular fan very for a while, George could decide to change things up, and this gives the show a chance to do the same for consistency.

They don't need any kind of escape hatch. You're acting like everything that happens in the show is 100% book based. If they have 13 episodes left and GRRM decides as a "gotcha D&D!!!" twist to make Jon the son of Randall Tarly and a Volantine pot scrubber they're going to give sero fucks and continue on their stupid course. You guys are REALLY reaching.

[Banner Without Brothers]

6 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

Banner without brothers why are you not answering my post? You don't have any argument left?

Dany is 8 months younger than Jon who's the same age as Robb making it impossible for Dany to be born in 283.

I'm kind of answering a lot of posts here. How about not being a dick and having some patience? It would be appreciated. 

The main problem with your theory is that Jon would be born at about the time of the sack of kings landing. But that would leave Ned barely any time to travel to storms end and then a huge distance to the tower of Joy which is on the South coast of Dorne. Somewhere Ned has never been before. Although I guess you could say he borrowed Baelish's teleportation device if you really want to make it fit.

[CQCStargaryen]

Oh for the love of the Mother, this is the stupidest argument and thread I think I've ever read. Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. That's a fact at this point. Whether or not he is a bastard is still up in the air. GRRM likes to write a complicated story but there's no way he'd come up with the Ashara Dayne story or the Arthur Dayne/Lyanna story. Is R+L=J just not complicated enough for you? I, personally, find it to be a marvelous reveal. It isn't immediately obvious but it makes complete sense and it has some extremely important consequences. All you're doing is arguing for the sake of arguing. You're just trolling people and it's unnecessary.

[Zoo_Dane]

It's Jon.

Short of her saying: "hey Ned, call my kid - you know, the one that was literally just handed to you. Good, now show him around the room so everyone knows that this is my kid im giving you to raise as your own to protect him - call him Jon. Everyone his name is Jon. Jon. Jon. This is Jon. Take care of Jon, Ned." 

There's not much a more clear way for them to confirm R+L=J than what they did      .

 

[jrod]

8 minutes ago, Zoo_Dane said:

It's Jon.

Short of her saying: "hey Ned, call my kid - you know, the one that was literally just handed to you. Good, now show him around the room so everyone knows that this is my kid im giving you to raise as your own to protect him - call him Jon. Everyone his name is Jon. Jon. Jon. This is Jon. Take care of Jon, Ned." 

There's not much a more clear way for them to confirm R+L=J than what they did      .

 

Exactly.  The cut from the closeup to the baby's face to Jon's is about as clear as a TV scenario to show they are the same person (in a situation like this one).  At this point if the now made Jon not Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid, I would lose all respect for the writers of the show.  That is exactly what they just portrayed with their cuts.

[White Harbors Wrath]

If she literally said "Ned, this is my son with Rhaegar, your nephew" and then got out of her deathbed to do a Bollywood dance number reinforcing the statement people would still be here arguing.

[xjlxking]

1 minute ago, White Harbors Wrath said:

If she literally said "Ned, this is my son with Rhaegar, your nephew" and then got out of her deathbed to do a Bollywood dance number reinforcing the statement people would still be here arguing.

Lmao exactly

"how do we know Lyanna was telling the truth about Rhaegar and that she was not raped by the mad king"

[OuttaOldtown]

Lol, I wanna drink the tears of all the R+L=J doubters, I'm glad you're out there still holding out hope. It will make the next year more entertaining..

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 hour ago, Future Null Infinity said:

the scene when Ned put Dawn the sword at the bed of Lyanna and then they focus on it can't be a hint that Arthur is the father?

That one was so that Jon could be born under a bleeding star, per the prophesy. 

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

6 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

That one was so that Jon could be born under a bleeding star, per the prophesy. 

I love this!    Most of this thread is just taking theories into the realm of craziness but this makes sense.  Thanks.

[Banner Without Brothers]

5 minutes ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

I feel like this is a strange question. Arthur Dayne is largely mentioned in relation to ToJ and as a great swordsman; there's never any indication that he's central to any plot or mystery. Ashara Dayne is only mentioned as killing herself due to grief (or something), but not much beyond that, other than Selmy being in love with her.

I don't think they have much of a point.

I'm not saying this in a dickish way but you should probably give it a reread. I was R+L=J my first go through, On my second I saw the significance of the Daynes.

Ashara is Elias handmaiden

At harrenhal Ashara dances with a number of dudes but lastly Ned. Selmy thinks she was dishonoured at the tourney and he "looks to stark". Some people think that's Ned some people Brandon it's unclear.

She gets pregnant 

Edric Dayne tells Arya that his aunt told him that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhall and that she killed herself because Ned broke her heart. It's mentioned several times that she jumped. However GRRM has stated (outside the books) that her body was never found. Sounds like she may well be alive. Edric goes by the name Ned as he's named after him. Which is strange seeing as Ned killed Arthur didn't return his body which is proper and then drove Ashara to suicide (supposedly). But they love Ned Stark so much they name a kid after him.

This is when he's returning the Dayne family sword to starfall straight after the tower of Joy. So presumably he has a baby with him that you think is Jon.

Catelyn and Cersi both think that Jon is Ashara's child.

Selmy reckons Ashara had a stillborn daughter. He thinks Dany looks like Ashara.

Ned bans all mention of Ashara at winterfell this is directly linked to Jon's parentage.

So the show has obviously dropped all of this. But there's too much there for it to have no meaning in the books. Especially as it's all linked to the tower of Joy and Jon's parentage, Ashara giving birth at around the same time, probably just before. 

The biggest problem with R+L=J might be the lack of an A. 

Goodnight.

[Future Null Infinity]

11 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

That one was so that Jon could be born under a bleeding star, per the prophesy. 

thank you for the answer

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 hour ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

It's interesting reading this thread. It's clear many people's pet theories crumbled last night and they are unwilling to accept it. 

It's so simple: There's no reason for Ned to protect the child if he isn't Lyanna's son, and there's no need for him to be protected if he isn't Rhaegar's son. And there's do reason for Lyanna to say "His name is..." and "You have to protect him" if the child is a girl. Twisting yourself in knots over theories like "A+L=J" or "R+L=D" is unnecessary. These theories fall apart the second basic logic is applied.

Just be happy nobody has to debate it anymore. Yet here we are...

It’s staggering to see so many hundreds of threads crumbling to dust, just as you said, so many millions of wasted hours people will now get back.

It's long past about time. So glad it's done.

[PirateVergo]

33 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

The main problem with your theory is that Jon would be born at about the time of the sack of kings landing. But that would leave Ned barely any time to travel to storms end and then a huge distance to the tower of Joy which is on the South coast of Dorne. Somewhere Ned has never been before. Although I guess you could say he borrowed Baelish's teleportation device if you really want to make it fit.

It's not a theory.

GRRM confirmed Jon is 8 months older than Daenerys.

There's many mention of the fact that it's hard to tell who's older between Robb and Jon, they've both within the same month.

Robb is obviously 100% confirmed to be born in 283, 9 months after Ned's wedding to Cat so that mean Jon is also born in 283 and if Jon is 8 months older than Dany then Dany must be born in 284.

 

Lyanna was dead in 284 and so was Rhaegar.

[The Bastard Dayne]

People are still arguing that R+L=J is not true???

 

ROTFLMAO!

This is hilarious.

[JonSnow1984]

13 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

R+L=J is not confirmed.

Now I'll probably get some hate for this and I have to start by saying that it is about 99% confirmed. But for anyone like me who hates the idea of Jon "Jesus" Targaryan being the magical Chosen royal blood Prophecy fulfiller I want to offer some hope, no matter how small. 

First big one the hair. We know how important hair is in the story. That baby is so blonde I think it would be more accurate to call it silver. If they wanted to 100% confirm Jon they would have had a baby with black hair. Of course babies hair can darken as they grow older but by the time that Ned brought him back to Winterfell? It's definitely a deliberate hole that will have to be filled in with either secret constant hair dye or magic, a glamour perhaps. https://youtu.be/dkvkT5D3fF4?t=280

No name. Why keep the name a secret? Is there really any need. Yes it was nicely done, the cut from the babies eyes into Jon's but we still could have had the name. Perhaps they could have had the "name is...." bit as the cut to Jon was happening. It's another deliberate hole 

Ah screw it, that's all I got if any other like minded optimists have anything else I'd love to hear it. But it's still enough for it to not be confirmed. It's just very, very, very likely that R+L=J.

Valar Morghulis R+L=D 

what's the point of this thread?

[Ygrain]

56 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

The main problem with your theory is that Jon would be born at about the time of the sack of kings landing. But that would leave Ned barely any time to travel to storms end and then a huge distance to the tower of Joy which is on the South coast of Dorne. Somewhere Ned has never been before. Although I guess you could say he borrowed Baelish's teleportation device if you really want to make it fit.

Not necessarily. Dany is born 9 months after the Sack, Jon is born 8-9 months before Dany "or thereabouts". So tehre is about a months, or even more, for travelling to a location which someone must have told Ned about, hence he was not wasting time roaming the countryside.

BTW, ToJ is NOT on the coast, check the map. I suppose you are confusing it with Starfall (but that's not South coast of Dorne, either). ToJ is located in the Prince's Pass, one of the main routes to Dorne, which is really not that difficult to locate.

 

[DrogonTargaryen]

11 hours ago, Shortspear Rick said:

Yeah, Ned promises to take care of his dying sister's baby and to keep him safe from Robert's wrath then goes off and has a bastard of his own he takes back to Winterfell and leaves this other "not Jon" baby with someone else. That makes so much more sense than Lyanna's baby being Jon and Ned adopting him as his own. No. Just stop. The only reason they didn't say the name was to give overanalyzing fans something to talk about. And the hair on the baby? Once again, overanalyzing. Hair can change color as a child grows. My own has gone from bleach blonde to dark brown. There are two reason why you might think that baby wasn't Jon: existing prejudice against the "theory" that's been obvious since book 1 or merely being a contrarian throwing out random ideas in hopes that you can claim to have figured out some shocking twist before everyone else. The baby is Jon. The dad is Rhaegar. End of story

2-factor protection!

There are people (Howland Reed, at least) who know that Lyanna had a baby, and entrusted that baby to Ned. Howland Reed may be a righteous dude, but a secret shared is not a secret at all.

So somewhere between the TOJ and Winterfell, and after parting company with Reed, Ned Stark gives the baby over to someone else he trusts. He tells that person that the kid is his own bastard and he is too ashamed to bring his dishonor home to Winterfell with him. Then he procures another infant somewhere. There's a war going on, and orphans abound. Or maybe he actually DOES father a bastard just to complete the farce.

From Ned's POV, his nephew is doubly protected. Even if Howland Reed spills the beans, it won't matter because the child he's raising is not even actually Lyanna's kid.

 

No.  of course it's bullshit. But it's not impossible.