Not Confirmed

[Pile-O-Starks]

11 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I'm not saying this in a dickish way but you should probably give it a reread. I was R+L=J my first go through, On my second I saw the significance of the Daynes.

Ashara is Elias handmaiden

At harrenhal Ashara dances with a number of dudes but lastly Ned. Selmy thinks she was dishonoured at the tourney and he "looks to stark". Some people think that's Ned some people Brandon it's unclear.

She gets pregnant 

Edric Dayne tells Arya that his aunt told him that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhall and that she killed herself because Ned broke her heart. It's mentioned several times that she jumped. However GRRM has stated (outside the books) that her body was never found. Sounds like she may well be alive. Edric goes by the name Ned as he's named after him. Which is strange seeing as Ned killed Arthur didn't return his body which is proper and then drove Ashara to suicide (supposedly). But they love Ned Stark so much they name a kid after him.

This is when he's returning the Dayne family sword to starfall straight after the tower of Joy. So presumably he has a baby with him that you think is Jon.

Catelyn and Cersi both think that Jon is Ashara's child.

Selmy reckons Ashara had a stillborn daughter. He thinks Dany looks like Ashara.

Ned bans all mention of Ashara at winterfell this is directly linked to Jon's parentage.

So the show has obviously dropped all of this. But there's too much there for it to have no meaning in the books. Especially as it's all linked to the tower of Joy and Jon's parentage, Ashara giving birth at around the same time, probably just before. 

The biggest problem with R+L=J might be the lack of an A. 

Goodnight.

This is a good summary. I have read the books three times, so I'm good, thanks.

You're making some inferences here adn treating them as facts.

First, Ned could have been in love with Ashara. He could have slept with Ashara. Maybe Selmy is right about the stillborn part of it. None of that means that Jon is Ned and Ashara's kid. This would also explain why he doesn't want her name mentioned. He could be legitimately grieving.

Second. Edric says that Jon's mother is Wylla, not Ashara. So conflicting stuff there.

Third, both Catelyn and Cersei acknowledge that the Ashara thing is a rumor. They don't know, and they don't claim to.

Finally, it makes zero sense to have Jon be the son of Arthur and Lyanna or Ned and Ashara. In either case, who cares? It adds nothing to the narrative, at all.

People need to stop grasping.

[Hol Horse]

Fascinating.

[Asvpxkvng]

5 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

That one was so that Jon could be born under a bleeding star, per the prophesy. 

Well damn done! Great thinking there!

[Florina Laufeyson]

5 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

That one was so that Jon could be born under a bleeding star, per the prophesy. 

Hats off to you, mate

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Christ, thirteen pages of this.

[hallam]

19 hours ago, Baelor_the_Blessed said:

So, does that TOJ scene pretty much dispel the speculation that Meera is Jon Snow's twin sister?

Yes, thank goodness. No Star Wars plots.

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

?+L=J is pretty much 100% confirmed.

Some think Arthur Dayne may have been the dad. Some of the more crackpot theories put Brandon and Benjen as the dad. But if they flat out say it, then there's little to be excited about and discuss after the initial "shock. Even if it's 99% probably it's Rhaegar ,disproving R+L is a pet hobby of mine even if I don't believe it.

Nope.

R+?=J is confirmed by the presence of the Kings Guard.

But as in the books there are strong hints that Lyanna has just given birth. But that isn't the only reason people get covered in blood in GoT. Most usual one is they are stabbed with a sword and she has what looks like a stab wound. She screamed once. Ever been at a birth, it is not a one scream affair.

The idea that the blood was from a Cesarian does not fit the scene as shown.

If HBO wanted to confirm Lanna was the mother they would have shown her giving birth. Or Jon would be covered in blood as well. 

18 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

You say it yourself, you assume it's Jon but that's very different to confirming it's Jon. It could be to lead the viewer into believing the massively hyped massively spoiled theory just to have an even bigger shock when it's revealed to not be true. 

Like I keep saying it's probably Jon but not confirmed. It's not outside the realms of possibility that it's not Jon.

I am certain it is Jon. That is the only solid conclusion.

R?  Pretty certain, there would be no reason for the Kingsguard otherwise. We know it is definitely not Ned.

L?  Nope, the only additional information we have from the books is that Jon is at the ToJ. We knew there was blood from the fever dream. We knew Lyanna dies.

J?   Pretty certain. The cut to adult Jon is pretty definitive. The producers are telling us it is Jon or they are cheating.

Of course my only certain prediction for this episode was that people would proclaim R+L=J confirmed regardless of whether there was additional evidence.

The show has to raise a doubt as to Jon's parentage before they give an explanation. The hints are so heavy that it has to be a false lead. 

[Nami]

7 hours ago, White Harbors Wrath said:

If she literally said "Ned, this is my son with Rhaegar, your nephew" and then got out of her deathbed to do a Bollywood dance number reinforcing the statement people would still be here arguing.

I just imagined this and I'm on the floor thanks

[Nami]

7 hours ago, The Bastard Dayne said:

People are still arguing that R+L=J is not true???

 

ROTFLMAO!

This is hilarious.

It's just trolling at this point.

[hallam]

6 hours ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

This is a good summary. I have read the books three times, so I'm good, thanks.

You're making some inferences here adn treating them as facts.

First, Ned could have been in love with Ashara. He could have slept with Ashara. Maybe Selmy is right about the stillborn part of it. None of that means that Jon is Ned and Ashara's kid. This would also explain why he doesn't want her name mentioned. He could be legitimately grieving.

Second. Edric says that Jon's mother is Wylla, not Ashara. So conflicting stuff there.

Third, both Catelyn and Cersei acknowledge that the Ashara thing is a rumor. They don't know, and they don't claim to.

Finally, it makes zero sense to have Jon be the son of Arthur and Lyanna or Ned and Ashara. In either case, who cares? It adds nothing to the narrative, at all.

People need to stop grasping.

I think that the book plot and the show plot are different and for a reason. They did not want to recast Jon Snow.

7 hours ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

I feel like this is a strange question. Arthur Dayne is largely mentioned in relation to ToJ and as a great swordsman; there's never any indication that he's central to any plot or mystery. Ashara Dayne is only mentioned as killing herself due to grief (or something), but not much beyond that, other than Selmy being in love with her.

I don't think they have much of a point.

I think Ashara and Ned are the parents of fake Aegon. Think about it, Ashara jumps of a tower, body is never found. Of course she ran away. Bodies never found always do. But why did she disappear?

There are a series of cuts from the show that I think are related: fake Aegon, the Mance/Rattleshirt glamor, JonCon.

R+E = J and Ned+Ashara = fAegon

Lyanna uses blood magic she found out about from somewhere to disguise Jon and make him look Stark.

The problem I have with the standard theory is that the only thing it explains is why Ned takes Jon as his son. It does not explain why he conceals the fact from Catelyn, the connections of the Daynes to the plot or anything else. It does not link any of the events in a meaningful way.

[hallam]

3 minutes ago, Nami said:

It's just trolling at this point.

That is really insulting.

No, plenty of people think R+L=J is too obvious.

[tmug]

18 hours ago, The Onion Kniggit said:

I actually thought it was Emilia Clarke for a few seconds given the fact that Emilia has dark hair.

Yes, mainly the lips and the eyebrows looks very much like Emilia Clark

Lyanna - http://cdn-04.independent.ie/incoming/article31132112.ece/aa862/AUTOCROP/w620/aisling1.jpg1.jpg

Dany - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/film/terminatorgenisys/emiliaclarke-xlarge.jpg

18 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

No your not that's the thing I was forgetting from the OP. I thought they were really similar. SInce I'm a fan of the R+L=D theory it really stood out. But that theory in the show at least seems to be well and truly dead since Lyanna kept saying him, unless she was delirious or had been misinformed or something.

Maybe Rhaegar actually did have a thing for his own family, Dany looks like Lyanna with white hair.

[cleffa]

I don't like the R+L=J theory (and possible storyline) as well but as you said it's pretty much 99% confirmed which is sad for me at least. For it to be 100% confirmed though we have to wait to see either Bran or Howland Reed reveal this next season. Can't Wait!

[Nami]

3 minutes ago, hallam said:

That is really insulting.

No, plenty of people think R+L=J is too obvious.

Not everything in this story is out to shock you
It is obvious maybe because it has been what, 20 years people have been putting the pieces together, you read it and it's like omg so obvious

No
Everything makes sense, the show confirmed, let's move on
At this point it's just silly to argue this

[Smoke317]

I'm sure like most have said its R+L=J but I actually prefer A+L=J. People want to press the AA & TPTWP prophecies on Jon but all information given has clearly shown that's Dany. She birthed dragons from stone under the bleeding comet by sacrificing her love (Drogo & Rhaego).  Even Aemon said everyone thought the prophecy was a boy but it's Dany.  Jon will be the Sword of the Morning who will battle the Night King and end the Long Night. A couple thoughts:  it's been established that Lyanna was like Arya. Headstrong. A Tom boy. Not a typical girl. So why would Lyanna who many believe was the Knight of the Laughing Tree run off because she fell in love???  She didn't. It doesn't fit her character. She ran off because she didn't want to be forced into marriage to a womanizing brute like Robert. Something I could see Arya doing as well. I think her goal was to become a lady knight like another current heroine we have. Brienne. She just happened to fall in love with Arthur during this time. Also, if the KG was protecting Rhaegar's son, why have him in an isolated indefensible place like the ToJ???  You're basically signing his death warrant. Wouldn't it make more sense to have him at Starfall with an easy escape route by ship?  I think Lyanna had become a member of Rhaegar's KG. I think she was there at the tower with the others as lookouts (which is what those watchtowers were actually used for) for enemies and they would battle them before they reached Starfall where Rhaegar's real son was at. The son he had with Ashara. I think there's a chance that Faegon is actually Rhaegar's child with Ashara and Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne.  Ashara was allowed to flee by Ned with Rhaegar's son because he saw what happened to his other children. She faked her death and fled.  But that's for the books. For the show, after this Great War, things will be totally different. I think Westeros will choose a king/queen who they deem worthy.  Not necessarily based on titles. So Jon not being Rhaegar's son won't exclude him from still becoming King. Hell he's already a king after the finale.  But he can still marry Dany and end up being King. I think next year we will get the proper introduction of House Dayne. Leaks have called for the casting of two young kids (teenagers) who will interact with the main characters of the show. My guess is Edric and Allyria Dayne. We'll find out who Jon's father is next year. Plus the Dayne history predates the Targs. They go back with the Starks and the first men. The fact that they have Targ features in the books tell us that they came from the Great Empire of the Dawn from which the Valyrians descend. So Jon being a Dayne & Stark still makes him the Song of Ice and Fire.  I know it's probably total crackpot and R+L=J.  Just trying to make my dream of Jon Dayne the sword of the morning be true. There's still a chance. Lol. 

[Frosta]

realistically... what else could/would Ned have done with his sister's baby?  give it to someone else? so theres really no other option than it being Jon. 

Like "welp, im gonna give this baby to some other family to raise, no questions asked. And then for some reason, Lyanna made me promise to impregnate a random wench"

[tmug]

21 minutes ago, hallam said:

If HBO wanted to confirm Lanna was the mother they would have shown her giving birth. Or Jon would be covered in blood as well. 

Okay um, ew.

So by this logic Loras and Margery are still alive... along with the Blackfish, Stannis and Syrio.

We didn't see Margery and Loras' bodies get burned up by the wildfire, it was merely implied that they were. They will be back next season just like Jon, don't believe D&D or cast & crew when they confirm that they are dead.

[lancerman]

7 minutes ago, hallam said:

That is really insulting.

No, plenty of people think R+L=J is too obvious.

It's only obvious because the books have been out just shy of 20 years and every detail has been combed over by the fanbase for ever. If you take all that out and the internet out, there are plenty of people that would never see it coming.

Like in 15 years some teenager will pick up the books without knowing anything about it and read them all in several months and have their mind blown. For people like us who are on a website where it's discussed so frequently it's going to come off as obvious because we've been bombarded with every clue. It's still the only theory that's ever completely made sense or had some purpose.

[Greg B]

42 minutes ago, hallam said:

If HBO wanted to confirm Lanna was the mother they would have shown her giving birth. Or Jon would be covered in blood as well.

No, we'd still hear "Actually, you never see the actual crowning and Lyanna's face in the same shot" or "That wasn't actually Lyanna; it was Melisandre using a glamour to make herself look like Lyanna" or "Sure, we see Lyanna squeeze out the baby, then they cut back to Ned and Lyanna, then Varys, disquised as a midwife, hands Ned a baby...note I said a baby, not the one Lyanna just gave birth to."

This thread delivers.

 

[xjlxking]

Just reading some replies on this topic makes me question how some people can be sooo oblivious

the straw man arguments that have come up are just too ludicrous 

[xjlxking]

3 minutes ago, Greg B said:

No, we'd still hear "Actually, you never see the actual crowning and Lyanna's face in the same shot" or "That wasn't actually Lyanna; it was Melisandre using a glamour to make herself look like Lyanna" or "Sure, we see Lyanna squeeze out the baby, then they cut back to Ned and Lyanna, then Varys, disquised as a midwife, hands Ned a baby...note I said a baby, not the one Lyanna just gave birth to."

This thread delivers.

 

Lmao I hate to SS this