Not Confirmed

[ShadowKitteh]

I'm blown away at what lengths people will go, and excuses they will make, in order to not see the obvious.

Kings Guard guard the King or his heir. The fact they FIGHT to the DEATH over Jon, tells you everything. The fact they tell Ned why they're not with Viserys (the dude with Viserys and his mother is NOT a Kings Guard, no need for Kings Guard.) So if Viserys isn't the heir, then who is in their eyes? Must be someone close, otherwise why aren't they with them doing their jobs?

1. They wouldn't be there if the baby was anyone but Rhaegar's child.

2. They wouldn't fight if Jon were a bastard.

3. If they didn't believe that there was still a Targaryen available for the throne, why are they still in REPORTING FOR DUTY mode? Why haven't they gone home? 

If Jon was a Dayne bastard, why the hell are they guarding some abandoned watch tower? Why haven't they taken Lyanna and the child anywhere to get help? Why isn't Arthur with Lyanna? 

As for Dawn - Go back and watch what Ned does with the sword. He leans it up against the foot of Lyanna's bed, and underneath it is blood on the bed. Nice bone for book readers. 

Jon is the title of the series FFS. Ice AND Fire. 

I also think Dany and her dragons together are Lightbringer.

[Cantarella]

mind you, a short amount of Targaryen theme "Fire and Blood" was played just before Jon executed the traitors in ep3

and somehow a few people still think that Jon is not a Targaryen, that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, that jon is dayne/baratheon bastard, really??? after all the hints the showrunners throw in season 5 and 6??? what do u want now? a sex scene between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Rhaegar screamed "JON SNOW YOU ARE MY SON"????

 

[Asvpxkvng]

12 minutes ago, Cantarella said:

mind you, a short amount of Targaryen theme "Fire and Blood" was played just before Jon executed the traitors in ep3

and somehow a few people still think that Jon is not a Targaryen, that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, that jon is dayne/baratheon bastard, really??? after all the hints the showrunners throw in season 5 and 6??? what do u want now? a sex scene between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Rhaegar screamed "JON SNOW YOU ARE MY SON"????

 

Oooh really how do you know what the fire and blood theme sounds like? Has it been played in the show before? Cuz I would love it if I heard this!

[GhostNymeria]

18 minutes ago, Cantarella said:

and somehow a few people still think that Jon is not a Targaryen, that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, that jon is dayne/baratheon bastard, really??? after all the hints the showrunners throw in season 5 and 6??? what do u want now? a sex scene between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Rhaegar screamed "JON SNOW YOU ARE MY SON"????

No, even then they would claim it's another secret baby named Jon

[Asvpxkvng]

38 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I'm blown away at what lengths people will go, and excuses they will make, in order to not see the obvious.

Kings Guard guard the King or his heir. The fact they FIGHT to the DEATH over Jon, tells you everything. The fact they tell Ned why they're not with Viserys (the dude with Viserys and his mother is NOT a Kings Guard, no need for Kings Guard.) So if Viserys isn't the heir, then who is in their eyes? Must be someone close, otherwise why aren't they with them doing their jobs?

1. They wouldn't be there if the baby was anyone but Rhaegar's child.

2. They wouldn't fight if Jon were a bastard.

3. If they didn't believe that there was still a Targaryen available for the throne, why are they still in REPORTING FOR DUTY mode? Why haven't they gone home? 

If Jon was a Dayne bastard, why the hell are they guarding some abandoned watch tower? Why haven't they taken Lyanna and the child anywhere to get help? Why isn't Arthur with Lyanna? 

As for Dawn - Go back and watch what Ned does with the sword. He leans it up against the foot of Lyanna's bed, and underneath it is blood on the bed. Nice bone for book readers. 

Jon is the title of the series FFS. Ice AND Fire. 

I also think Dany and her dragons together are Lightbringer.

I fully agree with all of this. After being lost for awhile I am now in acceptance of the obvious. But since you seem to have great handle on this I have still have a few lingering questions I wanna see if you can clear up for me if you would. Why do you think they castes a baby with blonde hair? It's certainly not out of their casting range to get a black haired baby. Not sure what it means but it's a possibility it could mean something right? Also what's your take on the suspicious removed sound bite of his name? These were all the things that swayed me not to see the obvious but now that I do these still bother me. It keeps me wondering if something is afoot. Also totally agree about your Lightbringer hypothesis.

[Cantarella]

8 minutes ago, Asvpxkvng said:

Oooh really how do you know what the fire and blood theme sounds like? Has it been played in the show before? Cuz I would love it if I heard this!

Yes.

Listen: 1:30- 2:30. They played this part right before Jon executed olly and the traitors.

You can hear it in this video, when Jon drawn his sword at 2:30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zah6Tvb1fr8

 

 

 

 

[Asvpxkvng]

4 minutes ago, Cantarella said:

Yes.

Listen: 1:30- 2:30. They played this part right before Jon executed olly and the traitors.

You can hear it in this video, when Jon drawn his sword at 2:30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zah6Tvb1fr8

 

 

 

 

Mmmmm I swear these writers are tricky as hell. I had to go back and forth a couple of times to make sure because they made sure to use the part of Fire and Blood that sounds like any regular somber music so no one would even notice! Great catch! Gots to believe now.

[barneyfife]

It most certainly is comfirmed I didn't read the whole thread so I don't no if it's been posted but. They released a info graphic that shows joins parents are rhaegar and Leanna. So except it 

[Cantarella]

yeah,  there are alot hints the show gives us through musical cues.

4ex: Littefinger's theme was played when Catelyn delivers the news of Jon Arryns death in e01ss1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih1YAx58lGw

As for Rhaegar, there is a high chance that he will appear in season 7. According to Issac (Bran), there's clearly going to be another revelation, and that revelation is going to have significance. He said that Jon's father is a very important person.and he will have an important and integral role in the history of Westeros that it will have enough power tobe a vision by itself 
 

[Asvpxkvng]

16 minutes ago, Cantarella said:

yeah,  there are alot hints the show gives us through musical cues.

4ex: Littefinger's theme was played when Catelyn delivers the news of Jon Arryns death in e01ss1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih1YAx58lGw

As for Rhaegar, there is a high chance that he will appear in season 7. According to Issac (Bran), there's clearly going to be another revelation, and that revelation is going to have significance. He said that Jon's father is a very important person.and he will have an important and integral role in the history of Westeros that it will have enough power tobe a vision by itself 
 

I hope they portray him well. I've always thought Jon Snow's almost naive idealism and honor comes from him. I would LOVE to see parallels. And I'd be excited to see his and Lyannas love affair.

Kinda hope they move Bran into the actual Stark plot line again after that though. Tired of him being used as a plot device. He needs to use his powers against the impending doom before.....

[Marada78]

Did you see this infographic by HBO? http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic

First they confirm Jon parentage.

Second leaving outside Tyrion they confirm something is going to be revealed about him also.

[Cragen]

2 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I'm blown away at what lengths people will go, and excuses they will make, in order to not see the obvious.

Kings Guard guard the King or his heir. The fact they FIGHT to the DEATH over Jon, tells you everything. The fact they tell Ned why they're not with Viserys (the dude with Viserys and his mother is NOT a Kings Guard, no need for Kings Guard.) So if Viserys isn't the heir, then who is in their eyes? Must be someone close, otherwise why aren't they with them doing their jobs?

1. They wouldn't be there if the baby was anyone but Rhaegar's child.

2. They wouldn't fight if Jon were a bastard.

3. If they didn't believe that there was still a Targaryen available for the throne, why are they still in REPORTING FOR DUTY mode? Why haven't they gone home? 

If Jon was a Dayne bastard, why the hell are they guarding some abandoned watch tower? Why haven't they taken Lyanna and the child anywhere to get help? Why isn't Arthur with Lyanna? 

As for Dawn - Go back and watch what Ned does with the sword. He leans it up against the foot of Lyanna's bed, and underneath it is blood on the bed. Nice bone for book readers. 

Jon is the title of the series FFS. Ice AND Fire. 

I also think Dany and her dragons together are Lightbringer.

God points,. I would like add that Arthur Dayne family castle is near ToJ, he bring midwife from Starfall. 

I would ask everyone who still questioning R+L=J. Why the fuck Tower of Joy is called Tower of Joy?

Because Rhaegar give it name.

[ToTheWolves]

3 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I'm blown away at what lengths people will go, and excuses they will make, in order to not see the obvious.

Kings Guard guard the King or his heir. The fact they FIGHT to the DEATH over Jon, tells you everything. The fact they tell Ned why they're not with Viserys (the dude with Viserys and his mother is NOT a Kings Guard, no need for Kings Guard.) So if Viserys isn't the heir, then who is in their eyes? Must be someone close, otherwise why aren't they with them doing their jobs?

1. They wouldn't be there if the baby was anyone but Rhaegar's child.

2. They wouldn't fight if Jon were a bastard.

3. If they didn't believe that there was still a Targaryen available for the throne, why are they still in REPORTING FOR DUTY mode? Why haven't they gone home? 

If Jon was a Dayne bastard, why the hell are they guarding some abandoned watch tower? Why haven't they taken Lyanna and the child anywhere to get help? Why isn't Arthur with Lyanna? 

As for Dawn - Go back and watch what Ned does with the sword. He leans it up against the foot of Lyanna's bed, and underneath it is blood on the bed. Nice bone for book readers. 

Jon is the title of the series FFS. Ice AND Fire. 

I also think Dany and her dragons together are Lightbringer.

This this and this!!

[Darksky]

52 minutes ago, Marada78 said:

Did you see this infographic by HBO? http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic

First they confirm Jon parentage.

Second leaving outside Tyrion they confirm something is going to be revealed about him also.

I don't think so, they also left out Cersei.

This infographic is not complete. Not as detailed despite its appearance. It doesn't connect Jon to Rhaenys and Aegon, unless half-siblings just don't count.

It only shows close relations with regard to Jon and his past (key players related to each other at that moment in GoT history). For example, Jaime is there because he was Kingsgurad who killed Mad King, Jon's grandfather. Tyrion and Cersei have no place in it.

[Sly Wren]

11 hours ago, TheGreatStallion said:

Let me say that while I thought R+L=J was the most credible one, there was also room IMO for Jon=AA and Dawn=Lightbringer.

I totally agree that a lot evidence point out that maybe Dawn=Lightbringer.

And my question Sir Sly Wren and correct if I m wrong but wasn't this theory primarily based on Ned being the father and Ashara the mother ? So doesn't ?+L=J kill the first draft of the theory

I did not know there was a theory that Ned and Ashara as Jon's parents would make Jon into AA. Did the theory insist that only this pairing would work? 

I'm pretty skeptical on the prophecies, or at least that they will be clear and helpful compared to the history. But I could see, at the end of all this, that Jon could look like AA to those in the story who believe in the prophecy. Also seems clear in the show and the books that Dany could seem that way to in-world people, too.

11 hours ago, TheGreatStallion said:

I mean although I thought either one of the 2 theories stated above could make sense Arthur being the father seems less plausible for me especially that Rhaegar last words supposedly were Lyanna, and I mean if your girl, wife or just the girl you just knocked out is giving birth you probably want to be with her, holding her hand or whatever.

Specifically, Rhaegar's last words were "a woman's name." 

In those visions in the House of the Undying, Dany has no trouble hearing and understanding what people say. She understands Rhaegar's convo with Elia re: their son. She understands what Aerys says in the throne room. And she understands the words of the dying prince well enough to know it's a woman's name.

But she doesn't say WHAT name it is. 

So, could the whisper have threaded the needle well enough to be recognizable as a woman's name but not for Dany to realize it was a name she knew? Sure. But it could also be a woman's name Dany didn't know. And that's why she didn't say it. She knows Lyanna's name in the books--talks about her crowning to Barristan as though she's heard the story over and over and says Lyanna's name. And she thinks of Elia's name. So. . . seems like there's at least a chance Rhaegar said a name Dany didn't know. My current guess is Ashara and that Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents, but that's probably for another thread.

11 hours ago, TheGreatStallion said:

So why Arthur was not with her ?

Good question. In the books, seems like Lord Commander Hightower is still in charge and they are all under orders from Rhaegar. So Arthur is following orders. In the show, Arthur flat out says that their prince wanted them here. And they are clearly angry about Rhaegar's defeat and want Ned's friend Robert dead. It seemed like that fight was about honor and holding the line until the end. It was a stupid fight otherwise, no matter who the father of Lyanna's baby is.

11 hours ago, TheGreatStallion said:

Besides that Rhaegar and Arthur were best buddies so it would not be cool for him to take his best friend girl..

Very true. Unless Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna as a lover but as a hostage. Or even just ended up with her, as Beric and the Brotherhood ended up with Arya and then decided to use her for their own ends even as they protected her. Or even took her for his own ends, as Baelish takes Sansa.

11 hours ago, TheGreatStallion said:

Another question, for you if I correctly recall Dawn must remain in House Dayne but is having some Dayne blood enough to hold the sword because Rhaegar has some Dayne blood from his great great great grandfather ?

Yup! We have no idea if that would be enough. All the SSM's and World Book tell us is that it must be a worthy knight of House Dayne. But until we get more info, a child of Rhaegar might fit the bill.

11 hours ago, TheGreatStallion said:

Final question, I also read that maybe the Dayne are just like the Denethor in LOTR, and they are kind securing the sword until the man worthy of the sword comes wether he is or not from house Dayne what do you think of that ?

Yup! @Kingmonkey has done a fair amount of argument in this direction. That Starfall sounds like a grail castle. So, that could definitely be a possibility.

But so far in the books, World Book, and SSM's, Martin has only said that the Daynes choose a worthy Daynish knight to wield the sword. That the sword waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning rises, until a worthy Dayne is deemed worthy enough to wield it. Could that change? Absolutely. But so far, Martin has only told us that Daynes alone wield Dawn.

[Cas Stark]

I begin to wonder if when this, which has been obvious for years and years, is revealed in the books, as it has now been in the show, will people still try to find a way that it isn't true?   Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents.  The end.  

[Sly Wren]

11 hours ago, brightflame princess said:

I'm just curious.. why would Robert want to kill a dayne baby so bad? Lyanna says Robert will kill him, you know he will. It's Targs he is after, to silence their claims. I don't think Robert would kill lyannas child unless it was rhaegars son. To me, he has no reason to kill a child born of a stark and a dayne.

But the show has Robert saying to Ned that he will kill every Targaryen he can get his hands on because of what Rhaegar did to Lyanna. That's vengeance, not his claim.

And in the books, Martin makes it VERY clear that Ned never thinks Robert wants to kill children over the succession. He thinks Robert condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children out of vengeance. And fears that Robert will kill Cersei's children out of rage and wounded pride. Even that Robert's rage could turn on him and Cat over Tyrion. 

I put up the quotes here if you want to see for yourself--Humph. I can't get it to embed. Sorry for the big loud graphic.

 

11 hours ago, brightflame princess said:

Also, rhaegar wouldn't put three kings guard with a baby that isn't royal blood. Those knights could have been fighting for their Prince, heck, the targaryens may have won if they were at the trident, rhaegar could have survived.

It really depends on why Rhaegar had Lyanna and what he was protecting. The books are NOT clear on the subject. The show and books have shown that people take hostages for all sorts of reasons--Arya is protected by the Brotherhood, but they still intend to ransom her. Same with the Hound. And Baelish has plenty of plans for Sansa. 

So, what was Rhaegar's endgame? Why did he sit out the war so long? The books make it clear that he wanted to depose his father and rule for himself--sitting out the war is a weird way to defend his throne, unless he intended to damage Aerys and swoop in as the savior at the end, proving himself more fit. The books show that Rhaegar was a political animal with political plots and games. If Lyanna is part of a political move, protecting her might be important to his endgame, baby or no baby.

Or there's the theory that they were guarding another royal baby mama--Ashara, pregnant with Rhaegar's daughter, Dany.

11 hours ago, brightflame princess said:

No.. rhaegar seemed smart, he wouldnt have kept those kingsguard knights at the tower of joy for arthur daynes baby, when they could be better utilized in the war. That baby was undoubtedly rhaegars.

I agreed. He would not leave them there to guard Arthur's child. But he might very well leave them there to hold onto his hostage for later peace negotiations with the North. Or to guard his impending child by another woman.

11 hours ago, brightflame princess said:

I think they showed dawn because we will see ned take it to starfall next season

That would be very cool. And would make me very happy. But I will not be surprised if they actually conflated Starfall and the tower. If Lyanna in the books was actually at Starfall and the fight at the tower was just a meeting place. 

And unless Dawn and the Daynes matter to future plots, I can't see D&D wasting time and budget on a trip to Starfall.

Martin has said in an SSM that Dawn waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning rises. But I could see the show just having Ned take it with him intending to give it to Jon when Jon is old enough to know the truth. 

11 hours ago, brightflame princess said:

Or it was a nod toward the books, an Easter egg for the book readers concerning the born under a bleeding star thing, or just to show book readers the sword. 

HA! All fair. They could just be trying to appease Dawn-fanatics like myself. But they made sure a lot of the focus was on the sword. Not subtle at all.

As for the bleeding star, I could only find in the show where Mel says darkness will come and the stars will bleed. She never said anything about the hero's being born under a bleeding star, nor has anyone else. Unless you can remember the show's mentioning such a thing?

No--I think the sword covered in Arthur's blood at the foot of the bed covered in Lyanna's blood could very well be  connected--both died as Jon was born. His mother's blood and his father's blood--that would be personal and painful and explain why Ned never told the truth about Arthur's death. Any more than he talks about Lyanna. --a point the show hammered home.

But we need more info before we can possibly be sure.

[The Bear]

For people saying 'they totally could have got a black-haired baby if they'd wanted to, the blonde hair must mean something' - no.

Casting for babies is really a huge pain in the ass. Their priority would have been looking for a baby with parents who were agreeable to the filming schedule. GOT often casts parts on very short notice so as to keep the casting low-key. It's completely possible they cast a baby with dark hair but the baby didn't work out - babies can't be controlled. Sometimes they'll show up on the day of filming and cannot be used in filming because they're sick or won't stop fussing/screaming/crying. It could be the kid they used wasn't their first choice.

As many people have pointed out, hair colour can change dramatically between babyhood and even childhood. I had coal black hair as a baby and now it's a medium reddish brown, for instance. A lot of newborns have blue eyes and that can change in the span of a few weeks. Unless the baby had silver-gold hair and purple eyes (and it didn't) the hair colour is almost certainly irrelevant. The baby had the same colour eyes as Jon. The shot of the baby faded into a shot of Jon. It's not rocket science.


I really strongly disagree that Rhaegar wouldn't have the KG guard Lyanna unless Jon was a prince of the blood. I think it's fairly clear they're following Rhaegar's orders to the end, honour before reason.  They're his friends and clearly feel more beholden to him than Aeyrs. If Dany's visions in the HotU are accurate and Rhaegar believed that Jon was the PWWP that would be more than enough reason to have them guard Jon, as well as the fact he surely knew Lyanna didn't want to be with Robert and that Robert would force Lyanna to marry him and kill Jon too.

I think thematically it would be a poor choice to have Jon turn out to not be a bastard when his whole story is about him coming to terms with being a bastard and his place in the world. Not to mention plural marriages really didn't happen with Targs outside of incestuous unions and so the whole marriage thing would be logistically awkward. Just my personal opinion, not looking for a debate.

[Tywinelle]

CONFIRM:  establish the truth or correctness of something previously believed or suspected to be the case.

IMPLY:  indicate something through suggestion rather than explicitly stating it.

What we saw in the show was not CONFIRMATION.  It was IMPLIED that Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon's parents.

The confirmation came later when HBO released that lame chart.

END OF DISCUSSION

[TheGreatStallion]

5 hours ago, Asvpxkvng said:

I fully agree with all of this. After being lost for awhile I am now in acceptance of the obvious. But since you seem to have great handle on this I have still have a few lingering questions I wanna see if you can clear up for me if you would. Why do you think they castes a baby with blonde hair? It's certainly not out of their casting range to get a black haired baby. Not sure what it means but it's a possibility it could mean something right? Also what's your take on the suspicious removed sound bite of his name? These were all the things that swayed me not to see the obvious but now that I do these still bother me. It keeps me wondering if something is afoot. Also totally agree about your Lightbringer hypothesis.

Hi really after watching it a few times, I am not sure really the baby has blond hair, you see it is a baby and he has very  sparse and thinning hair and besides that, He has what looks like blond hair in the part of his skull (left) where there is direct sunlight, on the other part (right part)where there is no sunglight, so really I do not think it is enough.

For the removing of the sound, 2 possibilities but the most likely is they did not want to confuse the audience with a new name instead of Jon and having people wonder if Jon is the baby with the new name. The other possibility is that they wait for the next season to reveal everything, and leave some for next season.

Really when they faded from the baby eyes to Jon eyes, it is pretty obvious.