Not Confirmed

[Sly Wren]

On July 20, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

What is 'Dawn'? Dawn is what comes straight after the night, isn't it? So what name would be appropriate to show that the night was at its end if not 'Dawn?' 

Does the title 'the battle for the dawn' must at 100% be reffering to the sword?

On the bolded--my apologies if I implied that "the battle for the dawn" was all about and only referencing the sword. That was not my intent. 

You are right--it's a fight to end the night.

But the sword Dawn is a sword that supposedly goes back the the Age of Heroes (unlike any of the Valyrian steel blades in the shows or books). And it is ONLY wielded by the Sword of the Morning--a title that also goes back thousands of years.

Really seems like the name of the sword and the title of its wielder are directly tied to the Battle for the Dawn.

On July 20, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Voice said:

Indeed!

But we are told quite explicitly that only sons of Starfall can claim Dawn, and GRRM has said that Dawn awaits the rise of the next Sword of the Morning. There has never been a Stark Sword of the Morning, the office and title belong to House Dayne alone, even if the sword came from Brandon the Builder.

Thus, Jon=SotM necessitates Jon being a son of Starfall. I favor Arthur+Lyanna, but Ned+Ashara would also suffice.

HA! Yes--agreed. Just saying--until we get the rest of the books, we can't know for sure.

But, as you say, so far, anyone who wields Dawn has to be a Dayne.

23 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Glad to see I am not the only one who saw that focus on Arthur Dayne in the first scene, and on Dawn in the two scenes, being the second scene all about Dawn and Jon related.

 You are most definitely not alone on that!

23 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I am a fan of A+L=J and, despiteof the fact that now I think it's highly unlikely it will happen because HBO released a page where shows relationships between characters and Rhaegar is told to be the father; I'd really like it to be true, or at least Dawn to be relevant for Jon.

1. Dawn's gotta be relevant based on both the books and the show.

2. On the graphic--the showrunners had Harrington giving interviews as late as March that he, the actor, was not coming back to the show. And they've had their actors in Lyanna's dying scene (the Bran actor and the Lyanna actor) as well as the director specifically saying they can't talk about what Lyanna revealed. 

I really, really doubt that graphic is the final word on anything. Unless of course that stupid polo shirt one of them was wearing in that promo counts as "evidence" that R+L = nothing more than "Ralph Lauren." 

So, for now, doors still open on options.

6 hours ago, Voice said:

This guy gets it. 

[Sly Wren]

On July 21, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Winterstars said:

Oh, but I'm dying to know how dangerous Jon Dayne could be that Robert wanted to kill him. And why Rhaegar wanted the best kingsguards to protect the Dayne child

Why would Jon have to be dangerous? The first episode of the series, where Robert is caressing Lyanna's statue's face, lamenting that she isn't with him, saying he dreams of killing Rhaegar every night--that scene makes it crystal clear that Robert hates Rhaegar still for taking Lyanna away from him--no politics, just grief, love, misery, and revenge.

No reason to think that same toxic mix of misery wouldn't apply to another who took his love. 

On July 21, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Winterstars said:

I wonder if Arthur knew about the propechy all the time, Rhaegar told him and he believed it. Because I find it hard why Arthur would help Rhaegar to kidnapped/run off with/whatever Lyanna while knowing Rhaegar still had legal wife. Rhaegar's action was not honorable, no matter if it was abduction or not. So to have two kingsguards helped him and Lyanna, it must be because of strong reason.

I, too, have wondered if Rhaegar and Arthur talked. It would make a LOT of sense. We get something of a reference to it with Stannis' focus on prophecy via Melisandre and Selyse, with Davos believing more in Stannis than in the prophecy. Davos puts up with a lot because of his belief in Stannis.

So, really think there's a good chance Rhaegar, his wife, his best friend, and maybe Ashara were all true believers. Or at least believed in Rhaegar's ability to turn things around.

On July 21, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Winterstars said:

And regarding camera focusing on Dawn in the bed of blood, I think the sword will play a role for the upcoming events. Maybe we can have another vision showing Ned returned Dawn to Starfall and they will introduce Wylla (or even Ashara, oh yes I'd like to see Ashara). So Wylla introduction will answer all the question of who is she to show watchers (for book reader, we already know that Wylla is a wet nurse in Starfall).

I agree they are very, very likely going to do something with the sword. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out they conflated Starfall with the tower. The tower in the show is NOT the tower of the books. And I could see Ned taking the sword home for Jon instead of going to Starfall--a non-canonical  streamlining of the plot and thus no need to get the sword from Starfall to Winterfell for Jon (as there is a need for in the books).

On July 21, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Winterstars said:

So all things will become more and more clearer

Amen. Or, at least I hope they will do.

[Voice]

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But, as you say, so far, anyone who wields Dawn has to be a Dayne.

 

I'm actually less certain on this part of the theory. While it seems like a given, it may not be. What is certain, I think, is that only a Dayne-Descendant can be the Sword of the Morning/Evening. The title belongs to their House. The sword may belong to Brandon the Builder.

[Sly Wren]

21 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I stand by what I said about what I think the clearest implications were.

On this, we may have to agree to disagree--Robert's face, his stroking of the statue's cheek, his misery, his "in my dreams I kill him every night," his refusal to let it go when Ned says, "It's done"--it all starts and is directly tied to his loss of Lyanna to Rhaegar. That's the cause and misery and source of rage and madness.

21 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

That was an extension of Robert's hatred of Targaryens. So, not what I'm talking about. Further, as Tywin tells Tyrion in ASoS, Robert knew the children had to die if he wanted to sit the IT comfortably.

Tywin may well believe this. But in the books, Ned does not think that's why Robert did it. And, in the show, they start that backstory with Robert's misery and grief. No practicalities. Just misery and unquenched vengeance for losing Lyanna.

21 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I don't think the examples you give tell us anything about how Robert would have reacted to a massive revelation about Lyanna ~15 years earlier, before he was king.

But he wanted Lyanna back before he was king. He was ready to murder the man who took his beloved before he was king. He showed anger at the crowning--laughed it off, but the World Book at least thinks he was angry. Before Lyanna was even taken. So, Robert as jealous, angry, vengeful, and miserable--he was all of those things before his kinging. 

21 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Not all speculation is created equally, though. I'm sure you could see Robert thinking something that would fit with your premise. But is there any evidence to support it? I've given context for Robert to believe that Rhaegar would have kidnapped and raped Lyanna.

Agreed. But if Robert believed Rhaegar did this and was angry, and then found out it was someone else, why wouldn't he also be angry? 

Equally importantly, if Lyanna was afraid of Robert's anger, if even Ned was afraid--that's a big risk to take on a baby. Can see them erring on the side of caution.

[Sly Wren]

6 minutes ago, Voice said:

I'm actually less certain on this part of the theory. While it seems like a given, it may not be. What is certain, I think, is that only a Dayne-Descendant can be the Sword of the Morning/Evening. The title belongs to their House. The sword may belong to Brandon the Builder.

True. And there's a decent chance that the Starks and Daynes are very long, lost relatives. So, title for the Daynes who hold the sword. But the sword is for both--might explain why Starks keep a trace of the sword with Ice.

[Voice]

3 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

True. And there's a decent chance that the Starks and Daynes are very long, lost relatives. So, title for the Daynes who hold the sword. But the sword is for both--might explain why Starks keep a trace of the sword with Ice.

Gotta be the reason.

[Voice]

Ice is like, absurdly long.

But the Dawn is too.

[Sly Wren]

32 minutes ago, Voice said:

Gotta be the reason.

Amen.

31 minutes ago, Voice said:

Ice is like, absurdly long.

But the Dawn is too.

YUP! And, to diverge into the books again, the Mountain Clans in the North have that odd tradition where even though no one else in the clan has any decent weapons, their champions always fight with greatswords. 

Seems like a trace of ancient history lasting even in the mountains. Along with their loyalty to the "wolves."

[Voice]

27 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! And, to diverge into the books again, the Mountain Clans in the North have that odd tradition where even though no one else in the clan has any decent weapons, their champions always fight with greatswords. 

Seems like a trace of ancient history lasting even in the mountains. Along with their loyalty to the "wolves."

 

Damn! Nice one.

You might've just explained why Waymar was mocked. Or at least, one of the reasons why.

His sword was a wee little thing. LOL

[J. Stargaryen]

31 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

On this, we may have to agree to disagree--Robert's face, his stroking of the statue's cheek, his misery, his "in my dreams I kill him every night," his refusal to let it go when Ned says, "It's done"--it all starts and is directly tied to his loss of Lyanna to Rhaegar. That's the cause and misery and source of rage and madness.

Fair enough. I tend to think facts are clearer than interpretations, though. It's a fact that Dany is introduced in the next scene. It's a fact that they were setting up a future story line. Your interpretation, however likely, is not a fact. What I took issue with originally was your claim about what was the "clearest implication" of that scene+cut to Dany.

31 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Tywin may well believe this. But in the books, Ned does not think that's why Robert did it. And, in the show, they start that backstory with Robert's misery and grief. No practicalities. Just misery and unquenched vengeance for losing Lyanna.

We're not talking about what Ned believes here. You replied to my "cut+paste" comment by saying that Robert did just that with Rhaegar's children. I'm saying that he didn't, because their deaths were a natural outcome of Robert and co. winning the rebellion against the Targaryens.

31 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But he wanted Lyanna back before he was king. He was ready to murder the man who took his beloved before he was king. He showed anger at the crowning--laughed it off, but the World Book at least thinks he was angry. Before Lyanna was even taken. So, Robert as jealous, angry, vengeful, and miserable--he was all of those things before his kinging.

I'm not sure what this has to do with your previous point. I *think* you were trying to show that Robert was stubborn, and Ned couldn't convince him to change his mind. Is that correct? So I replied, I don't think these "administrative" discussions really tell us anything about how Robert would have reacted to a massive revelation about Lyanna ~15 years prior.

I get the sense from the scene in question that Robert feels a little bit like Ned is hassling him over administrative issues. I don't think they're particularly important to Robert, and I don't think he feels like Ned should worry about them. To me, I don't see Robert having the same attitude in a discussion shortly after the war about what really happened to Lyanna. I think he would care quite a bit more, and wouldn't feel like he was being hassled.

31 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed. But if Robert believed Rhaegar did this and was angry, and then found out it was someone else, why wouldn't he also be angry?

I never said he wouldn't be angry. In fact, I'm pretty I've said that he would have wanted to kill Arthur.

31 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Equally importantly, if Lyanna was afraid of Robert's anger, if even Ned was afraid--that's a big risk to take on a baby. Can see them erring on the side of caution.

Maybe it's just your wording, but "erring on the side of caution" doesn't really strike me as a good motive for the central mystery of the series.

[Sly Wren]

16 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Damn! Nice one.

You might've just explained why Waymar was mocked. Or at least, one of the reasons why.

His sword was a wee little thing. LOL

HA! I could have sworn I've brought this up before, but . And amen re: Waymar.

Unfortunately, the show seems to have cut the Mountain Clans in the North.

Here's hoping they bring them back.

[CrypticWeirwood]

It's just like the flat earthers: these people will  always exist. 

The thing they're all missing is the big reveal not of FakeJon but of Ned and Ashara's daughter, named for her mother's house and linked to her origin and undeniable destiny: Dany = Dayne-y!

 

[J. Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It's just like the flat earthers: these people will  always exist. 

The thing they're all missing is the big reveal not of FakeJon but of Ned and Ashara's daughter, named for her mother's house and linked to her origin and undeniable destiny: Dany = Dayne-y!

 

 

It's right there in her name! Daenerys = Dayne-heiress!!

[Meera of Tarth]

17 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

On the bolded--my apologies if I implied that "the battle for the dawn" was all about and only referencing the sword. That was not my intent. 

You are right--it's a fight to end the night.

But the sword Dawn is a sword that supposedly goes back the the Age of Heroes (unlike any of the Valyrian steel blades in the shows or books). And it is ONLY wielded by the Sword of the Morning--a title that also goes back thousands of years.

Really seems like the name of the sword and the title of its wielder are directly tied to the Battle for the Dawn.

HA! Yes--agreed. Just saying--until we get the rest of the books, we can't know for sure.

But, as you say, so far, anyone who wields Dawn has to be a Dayne.

 You are most definitely not alone on that!

1. Dawn's gotta be relevant based on both the books and the show.

2. On the graphic--the showrunners had Harrington giving interviews as late as March that he, the actor, was not coming back to the show. And they've had their actors in Lyanna's dying scene (the Bran actor and the Lyanna actor) as well as the director specifically saying they can't talk about what Lyanna revealed. 

I really, really doubt that graphic is the final word on anything. Unless of course that stupid polo shirt one of them was wearing in that promo counts as "evidence" that R+L = nothing more than "Ralph Lauren." 

So, for now, doors still open on options.

oh yes,that shirt...and I think there is a hidden RLJ n the first season in  Castle Black too...

you know, I'd like to believe Arthur is Jon's father (as much as I'd like to believe that the hints of LSH in the show were real) but I'm having a lot of difficulties  

that graphic, as you mention, could not count as evidence because there was also a family tree that stated that Jon's was Ned's son, for instance. And what you said about Lyanna's words and the secrecy is very interesting.

But I definitely think that Dawn will be important in both mediums and I am pretty convinced it will be Jon's sword. It must be.

[MtnLion]

On 7/23/2016 at 8:06 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

But I definitely think that Dawn will be important in both mediums and I am pretty convinced it will be Jon's sword. It must be.

There is an issue with this, from my perspective.  Jon dreams of fighting the undead with Long Claw burning red in his hands.  It seems that Long Claw is Jon's sword, though he seems to drop it frequently.  But, add in that Azor Ahai will pull his sword from the fire, and it is very compelling that Long Claw is Azor Ahai's sword.  Jon's sword was recovered from the fire that engulfed the Lord Commander's quarters, and was redecorated to be presented to Jon.  

GRRM likes his herring red.

[Asvpxkvng]

On July 22, 2016 at 8:19 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

It's just like the flat earthers: these people will  always exist. 

The thing they're all missing is the big reveal not of FakeJon but of Ned and Ashara's daughter, named for her mother's house and linked to her origin and undeniable destiny: Dany = Dayne-y!

 

Woah de woah de woah. You just kidding or any proof cuz that'd be cool.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

The seed is strong. Why do you think Targaryens married brother and sister together for centuries? To keep blood lines pure and keep the Valyrian white hair. Baelor Breakspear is the biggest example of a Targaryen getting dark hair from his mother instead of his father's white hair.

Baelor Breakspear's mother was Dornish and he came out having mainly Dornish features, which is actually what helped create distrust between many in the realm and Daeron II during the first blackfyre rebellion. Back then people still didn't like or trust the Dornish so the Targaryen heir looking Dornish certainly didn't help Daeron II's cause against Daemon Blackfyre.

Also evidence to the contrary is with Rhaegar and Elia's son Aegon who was white of hair despite having a Dornish mother (although Rhaenys was Dornish looking so that is another one supporting the seed is strong). The genetics in Westeros are very odd, but The Targaryen white hair should be dominated by the Stark's dark hair so Jon coming out with his mother's dark hair over his father's white actually makes sense.

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

The seed is strong. Why do you think Targaryens married brother and sister together for centuries? To keep blood lines pure and keep the Valyrian white hair. Baelor Breakspear is the biggest example of a Targaryen getting dark hair from his mother instead of his father's white hair.

Baelor Breakspear's mother was Dornish and he came out having mainly Dornish features, which is actually what helped create distrust between many in the realm and Daeron II during the first blackfyre rebellion. Back then people still didn't like or trust the Dornish so the Targaryen heir looking Dornish certainly didn't help Daeron II's cause against Daemon Blackfyre.

Also evidence to the contrary is with Rhaegar and Elia's son Aegon who was white of hair despite having a Dornish mother (although Rhaenys was Dornish looking so that is another one supporting the seed is strong). The genetics in Westeros are very odd, but The Targaryen white hair should be dominated by the Stark's dark hair so Jon coming out with his mother's dark hair over his father's white actually makes sense.

It does make sense because, quite conveniently, every first born child to a Targ/ Non- Targ parent always looks like the Non-Targ parent, but has the personality of the Targ parent. For instance, Jon looks like Lyanna, but acts like Rhaegar. I traced it all the way back as far as I could go and the only time time it shows up to be different, Aegon II,  is the one case where there is an identiity crisis (that starts the Dance of Dragons). I have it linked in my signature if you want to read about it.

[Leticia Stark]

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It does make sense because, quite conveniently, every first born child to a Targ/ Non- Targ parent always looks like the Non-Targ parent, but has the personality of the Targ parent. For instance, Jon looks like Lyanna, but acts like Rhaegar. I traced it all the way back as far as I could go and the only time time it shows up to be different, Aegon II,  is the one case where there is an identiity crisis (that starts the Dance of Dragons). I have it linked in my signature if you want to read about it.

Sorry to intrude, but I want to read it and I can't see your signature here.

[The Fattest Leech]

14 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Sorry to intrude, but I want to read it and I can't see your signature here.

No worries and never an intrusion. I will pm you the link.