Not Confirmed

[IamMe90]

^

My bad The Lord of Crows, I guess I misinterpreted TyMo - I thought he was just making a clever snarky remark, but if he's actually saying that young griff isn't a Blackfyre based on a quote made by Illyrio Mopatis - the person who may very well be a Blackfyre - well, I suppose I misjudged lol.

[Xcorpyo001]

Wow, the denial is strong around here. I don’t know what else were you guys expecting.

Lyanna said ‘him’, so we know it’s a boy, so bye bye R+L=D, at least for the show.

She also said ‘his name is…of house…Robert will kill him…’. This plus the fact that he was protected by the two(grrr) best KG members, one of him the leader of the KG, makes me think that he’s not a Targ bastard, and Rhaegar married Lyanna before dying, to legitimize his son. 

The kid has Jon’s eyes, we know that children that have blondish hair when they are born change their hair, sometimes even in a matter of weeks/months, sometimes it might even takes years, but it’s possible. We also know that the Baratheons have a Targs in their lineage, and all their descendants have black hair, so the Targ traits are weaker of regressive. They usually have white/blond hair because they usually marry their own family, so white+white=white. We also know that Lyanna and Brandon had strong Stark genes, so they might win against the weaker Targ ones.

That and the scene cut from the baby’s eyes to Jon’s face that has very similar color. I don’t know if they can find a baby with exact features as him, especially since they tried to do this on very low key, to keep it a secret. When they were looking for a baby, most people thought that it will be one for Gilly. Hell, they might have used the same child Gilly had at first rather than look for another baby, hair be damned.

It’s too late now to change anything. What blond boy the same age as Jon can be introduced in the show at this point in time?

And as to the ‘it’s to obvious’, it’s not. I am an old member of this forum, even if I spent the last years mostly lurking around here. I remember when these theories first surfaced, and it took a long time for them to be accepted by a large number of people. I personally talked to about 50 people that have read the books in real life over the years, and only around 10 had guessed the R+L=J angle(mostly on re-reads), and some others had some questions about his parentage, but only about the name of his mother, not the fact that Jon is not Ned’s son.

If it was so damn obvious, Jon would have been dead a long time ago, either by Robert’s hands, or Tywin’s. That and I don’t think Ned would promise his sister that he will protect her son, and the next day give him to some strangers that were his enemies until recently. Royal blood or not, the child had Stark blood in him, so Ned took him home, to the North. If he gave Jon away, why bother lie about having a bastard? I don’t know what sane person will just gave away their child to Ned, so they can raise Rhaegar’s son instead. A child that also happened to have Stark features and powers(warg) no less. They all saw only his Stark traits because no one was looking for something else.

[tugela]

3 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

R+L=J is not confirmed.

Now I'll probably get some hate for this and I have to start by saying that it is about 99% confirmed. But for anyone like me who hates the idea of Jon "Jesus" Targaryan being the magical Chosen royal blood Prophecy fulfiller I want to offer some hope, no matter how small. 

First big one the hair. We know how important hair is in the story. That baby is so blonde I think it would be more accurate to call it silver. If they wanted to 100% confirm Jon they would have had a baby with black hair. Of course babies hair can darken as they grow older but by the time that Ned brought him back to Winterfell? It's definitely a deliberate hole that will have to be filled in with either secret constant hair dye or magic, a glamour perhaps. https://youtu.be/dkvkT5D3fF4?t=280

No name. Why keep the name a secret? Is there really any need. Yes it was nicely done, the cut from the babies eyes into Jon's but we still could have had the name. Perhaps they could have had the "name is...." bit as the cut to Jon was happening. It's another deliberate hole 

Ah screw it, that's all I got if any other like minded optimists have anything else I'd love to hear it. But it's still enough for it to not be confirmed. It's just very, very, very likely that R+L=J.

Valar Morghulis R+L=D 

In that clip Ned has very light brown but the older Ned has dark hair. It is just actors dude.

R+L=J cannot be true, if that was the baby Ned took, because there is no mechanism for the baby to end up as Daenerys. Likewise, Jon came from somewhere, and if he was actually Ned/Brandon with Ashara (or someone else) and was switched for Lyanna's baby, why not just say who the mother and father were. There would be no need for big secrecy unless the baby in the scene was Jon.

[Chib]

I am here just to laugh at people denying Jon's heritage. Lmao

[Banner Without Brothers]

1 minute ago, tugela said:

In that clip Ned has very light brown but the older Ned has dark hair. It is just actors dude.

R+L=J cannot be true, if that was the baby Ned took, because there is no mechanism for the baby to end up as Daenerys. Likewise, Jon came from somewhere, and if he was actually Ned/Brandon with Ashara (or someone else) and was switched for Lyanna's baby, why not just say who the mother and father were. There would be no need for big secrecy unless the baby in the scene was Jon.

Did you mean my mention of R+L=D? I wrote valar morghulis as that's sort of their version of RIP. I thought that was obvious, perhaps not. I was saying that theory, the one I believed made the most sense from the books was now dead in the show. The reason they would keep it a secret if N/B+A=J is succession and the Tully alliance. Having another claimant to Winterfell could ruin the whole North/riverland/vale/stormland alliance they had going on before the rebellion even happened. But it's kind of off topic since that theory is dead in the show. 

[IamMe90]

You remind me of people who said that there was no way that it was REALLY Rickon because Shaggydog's head waz 2 small! Or that we'd obviously get a show GNC bcuz smalljon didn't kneel! Etc Etc Etc. 

The show doesn't know subtlety and trying to explain away the very obvious R+L=J reveal we just got as anything other than what it was is just a useless waste of energy. Give it up dude lol

[a dragon is still a dragon]

they focus on his eye colour specifically at the pan out at the end of the ToJ scene and cut straight to Jon with exact same eyes's. no two ways about it R+L=J 

[Banner Without Brothers]

52 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

Wow, the denial is strong around here. I don’t know what else were you guys expecting.

 

Lyanna said ‘him’, so we know it’s a boy, so bye bye R+L=D, at least for the show.

 

She also said ‘his name is…of house…Robert will kill him…’. This plus the fact that he was protected by the two(grrr) best KG members, one of him the leader of the KG, makes me think that he’s not a Targ bastard, and Rhaegar married Lyanna before dying, to legitimize his son. 

 

The kid has Jon’s eyes, we know that children that have blondish hair when they are born change their hair, sometimes even in a matter of weeks/months, sometimes it might even takes years, but it’s possible. We also know that the Baratheons have a Targs in their lineage, and all their descendants have black hair, so the Targ traits are weaker of regressive. They usually have white/blond hair because they usually marry their own family, so white+white=white. We also know that Lyanna and Brandon had strong Stark genes, so they might win against the weaker Targ ones.

 

That and the scene cut from the baby’s eyes to Jon’s face that has very similar color. I don’t know if they can find a baby with exact features as him, especially since they tried to do this on very low key, to keep it a secret. When they were looking for a baby, most people thought that it will be one for Gilly. Hell, they might have used the same child Gilly had at first rather than look for another baby, hair be damned.

 

It’s too late now to change anything. What blond boy the same age as Jon can be introduced in the show at this point in time?

 

And as to the ‘it’s to obvious’, it’s not. I am an old member of this forum, even if I spent the last years mostly lurking around here. I remember when these theories first surfaced, and it took a long time for them to be accepted by a large number of people. I personally talked to about 50 people that have read the books in real life over the years, and only around 10 had guessed the R+L=J angle(mostly on re-reads), and some others had some questions about his parentage, but only about the name of his mother, not the fact that Jon is not Ned’s son.

 

If it was so damn obvious, Jon would have been dead a long time ago, either by Robert’s hands, or Tywin’s. That and I don’t think Ned would promise his sister that he will protect her son, and the next day give him to some strangers that were his enemies until recently. Royal blood or not, the child had Stark blood in him, so Ned took him home, to the North. If he gave Jon away, why bother lie about having a bastard? I don’t know what sane person will just gave away their child to Ned, so they can raise Rhaegar’s son instead. A child that also happened to have Stark features and powers(warg) no less. They all saw only his Stark traits because no one was looking for something else.

 

I don't see any denial. How is saying that it's 99% Jon denial. It's actually true. They could have confirmed it outright yet they chose not to. That's fact, if you dispute that perhaps you are the one in denial.

Who could it be? It could be Aegon/young Griff. They've left him out until now but they've brought back a load of stuff this season that was unexpected, stuff that had already happened in the books a long time ago. Again I'm not saying it's likely, I'm saying it's possible. 

Because that's what this thread is about the slim 1% chance that the story actually has a twist left in it. I thought it would be a bit of light relief for those, like me who think that the story of a messiah reclaiming his birth right with his flaming cock is not what we were reading. Anyway not buying the hair excuse or the eyes. Make up your mind bad casting or good casting? Either it's bad casting, why not just get a baby with black hair. Or good casting they got a baby with the right eyes. 

[Banner Without Brothers]

11 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

You remind me of people who said that there was no way that it was REALLY Rickon because Shaggydog's head waz 2 small! Or that we'd obviously get a show GNC bcuz smalljon didn't kneel! Etc Etc Etc. 

The show doesn't know subtlety and trying to explain away the very obvious R+L=J reveal we just got as anything other than what it was is just a useless waste of energy. Give it up dude lol

You remind me of that story with the troll under a bridge kindly crawl back under yours 

[IamMe90]

8 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

You remind me of that story with the troll under a bridge 

I can't really tell if you're just referencing that specific fairy tale because it has the word "troll" in it, and therefor implying that I'm a troll - or if there's some aspect of that story that is specifically relevant to what I said. It's probably the former, but either way, it has nothing to do what I said. 

Either way, I don't really buy your shtick that you're 99% convinced that R+L=J but you just had to make a topic about it not being possible that it's not true. If you were really 99% convinced (which is like, scientific in its certainty), why the hell would you even bother making a topic to the contrary? And furthermore, why would you then get pissed off when the overwhelming response is to tell you what, according to you, you already know - that this scene basically cemented the fact that R+L=J?

 

[Xcorpyo001]

14 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I don't see any denial. How is saying that it's 99% Jon denial. It's actually true. They could have confirmed it outright yet they chose not to. That's fact, if you dispute that perhaps you are the one in denial.

Who could it be? It could be Aegon/young Griff. They've left him out until now but they've brought back a load of stuff this season that was unexpected, stuff that had already happened in the books a long time ago. Again I'm not saying it's likely, I'm saying it's possible. 

Because that's what this thread is about the slim 1% chance that the story actually has a twist left in it. I thought it would be a bit of light relief for those, like me who think that the story of a messiah reclaiming his birth right with his flaming cock is not what we were reading. Anyway not buying the hair excuse or the eyes. Make up your mind bad casting or good casting? Either it's bad casting, why not just get a baby with black hair. Or good casting they got a baby with the right eyes. 

 

There are no hints that Young Griff will appear in the show. The advisor with grayscale already made an appearance with Jorah. Furthermore, Dorne is already on Dany’s side, so he’ll have no allies in Westeros. Or maybe in the show he’ll be raised by LF rather than Varys?!?

There are a lot of hints the child is Jon(Stark features, promise, scene cut from a close up with the child’s eyes to Jon’s eyes, the child Ned brought home after he went to save his sister, etc). On the other hand, the only thing deniers can say is “it’s too obvious”. If they show you a white shirt and ask you what color it is, you’ll say that it’s any color other than white, because white it’s too damn obvious? Yup, I can see you doing that.

I for one think that GRRM will probably make a 'not so obvious' example with the Lann children. As in Cersei&Jaime being the Targs, rather than the more obvious choice, Tyrion.

[IamMe90]

10 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

You remind me of that story with the troll under a bridge kindly crawl back under yours 

That's too bad. It's always a shame when someone who doesn't want to respond to a view, opinion, or post that dissents from their own basically gives the euphemistic equivalent of telling someone to fuck off. Farewell then 

[NutBurz]

I´m not going to say anything about the books. Everything can turn out the same, and everything can turn out wildly different from the show.

I´ll just ask this - does the audience know who Rhaegar Targaryen is? I think it would be interesting to have all the lines in the show that refer to him, it must not be more than a handful.

 

 

I don´t think the show will tell the book´s parentage, and maybe that´s an argument from my pov in favor of book Jon being a Targ, which I still don´t believe - but I strongly doubt show Jon will be Rhaegar´s son.

 

I think book fans and wiki-lurkers tend to forget that´s a media made for non-fanatics. Jon being Rhaegar´s son for series fans would be a lot more "oh...uh?" than "wow!yeah!" without them having a huge exposition on who Rhaegar even is (which, granted, could totally still happen - Lost was supposed to be like 4 seasons and they milked it into 6 without being this huge success).

[ummester]

I was so hoping Lyanna's baby had bright blue eyes and horns - unfortunately it was just Jon. Still, I'm not giving up on the true saviour of Westeros, the Night King.

 

[YOVMO]

3 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

Why even make this thread? It feels like you dont even believe the stuff you wrote.

They didnt outright say the name because they probably thought "hey, our audience cant possibly be so stupid as to not realize what's going on".

Judging by like 100% of everything that happened this season, ya know, every single word, they absolutely think the audience is " so stupid"

[Red Tiger]

Just now, YOVMO said:

Judging by like 100% of everything that happened this season, ya know, every single word, they absolutely think the audience is " so stupid"

Im pretty sure this came straight from the Winds of Winter book. This has George written all over him.

[YOVMO]

Just now, Red Tiger said:

Im pretty sure this came straight from the Winds of Winter book. This has George written all over him.

Oh R+L def = J (though I think the reveal will be slightly different in the book)

 

i am just pointing out that given every single word of dialoug this season we should def assume the show is being written by people who assume the viewers are idiots. 

[SevasTra82]

I swear, the R+L=J denialists (is that even a word?) are getting just as bad as the LSH ones.

We've known for 20 YEARS who Jon's parents are.  People have figured this out long, long, LONG ago.  The show pretty much shoves it right in your face multiple times, yet people *still* want to deny it.

*sigh*

[ummester]

Yea, I'd say the Lyanna scene is similar to how it would be in the book. The promise was simple, don't let Robert know Jon is a Targ because Robert will kill him. Doesn't matter that the nights watch did anyway

Actually, if Robert killed baby Jon, would Mel have been able to bring him back? Is Ned's promise entirely pointless like everything else that honourable halfwit did?

[Future Null Infinity]

they wanted to create a cliffhanger by not revealing everything about Jon this season