Queen of Dragons Marrying King in the North

[Lord Friendzone]

6 minutes ago, GravyFace said:

I don't see the benefit of Jon and Sansa marrying. The show has Jon as KITN and Sansa as Lady of Winterfell. They wouldn't gain any new allies or power by marrying, all it would get Sansa is a bigger title. 

In theory neither does Jon and Daeny marriage. Aegon proved that North can be conquered and Torrhen Stark knelt before him. She has three dragons so she doesn't have to marry him but plot demands it so alliance. Vale and Riverlands are not his so. Sansa might gain control over that as she is Tully from her mother and if she can off Littlefinger, then she can control Vale with Robin or even herself she manage to kill him too. Curious how Vale and Riverlands will be in next season and who will control them. It might just be best option for Daeny to rule on her own.

[GravyFace]

41 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

In theory neither does Jon and Daeny marriage. Aegon proved that North can be conquered and Torrhen Stark knelt before him. She has three dragons so she doesn't have to marry him but plot demands it so alliance. Vale and Riverlands are not his so. Sansa might gain control over that as she is Tully from her mother and if she can off Littlefinger, then she can control Vale with Robin or even herself she manage to kill him too. Curious how Vale and Riverlands will be in next season and who will control them. It might just be best option for Daeny to rule on her own.

Come on, Dany and Jon have a lot to gain by marriage. It would mean Jon doesn't have to kneel, he would be an equal partner in the marriage. It would mean Dany doesn't have to go to war against the North (if Jon refused to kneel), which would obviously be ideal for both Dany and the North. It would mean Jon get to utilize Dany's enormous army and dragons for the coming WW, instead of doing without them, or instead of having to fight 2 wars on two fronts.

[Cragen]

50 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

In theory neither does Jon and Daeny marriage. Aegon proved that North can be conquered and Torrhen Stark knelt before him. She has three dragons so she doesn't have to marry him but plot demands it so alliance. Vale and Riverlands are not his so. Sansa might gain control over that as she is Tully from her mother and if she can off Littlefinger, then she can control Vale with Robin or even herself she manage to kill him too. Curious how Vale and Riverlands will be in next season and who will control them. It might just be best option for Daeny to rule on her own.

Torrhen didn't have Bran or Arya and Aegon conquest happened during summer. Dany have Dothraki, Unsullied, Dorne and Reach, neither of armies don't know how to fight or behave in winter circumstance, if they march on North and they somehow pass Moat Callin, they would die, starved and rest of them would be to frozen and tired in time they reach Winterfell and they would be easy pick for northerners and Wildlings. Dany can burn some castles, but that will not bring her closer to occupying North. Dragons can be killed by weirwood arrows, Arya could kill Dany, Bran is strongest warg that ever lived, even if he can't warg dragon he have every animal he want at his disposal. It wouldn't be easy conquest at all.

[Masha]

3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

In theory neither does Jon and Daeny marriage. Aegon proved that North can be conquered and Torrhen Stark knelt before him. She has three dragons so she doesn't have to marry him but plot demands it so alliance. Vale and Riverlands are not his so. Sansa might gain control over that as she is Tully from her mother and if she can off Littlefinger, then she can control Vale with Robin or even herself she manage to kill him too. Curious how Vale and Riverlands will be in next season and who will control them. It might just be best option for Daeny to rule on her own.

The problem for Dany if there is a substantial proof that R+L=J and it becomes publicly known, whats to stop Jon (and the Large North, perhaps Vale and Riverlands together) claiming that the rightful heir is Jon, son of crown prince Rhaegar, not his youngest sister. Remember, Targs really prefer Primogeniture rule. 

By marrying Jon, not only Dany brings in North peacefully and gains familiar link to Starks including willing help from Bran, she also effectively neutralizes Jon's claims and potentially gains another Dragon rider.

 

[illinifan]

Season 6 was really about maneuvering all the pieces into place and given where everyone ended up in Season 6, a marriage alliance between Jon and Dany makes a lot of sense.  Dany's break up scene with Daario only makes sense if political marriage is an upcoming plot point.  Right now a Jon-Dany match is just too overwhelmingly beneficial to both parties for it to be ignored.

Of course, there might be complications.  Both parties might not like each other.  Dany might not be willing to forge an alliance where she doesn't get everything she wants.  Jon's position might be undermined by LF.  Jon might receive confirmation of his heritage prior to the marriage and find the idea of marrying his auntie distasteful.

[Chib]

Well if Dany got married to Jamie, it would be so fxxxed up. I am no fan of the mad king but girl the guy killed your dad. And Lannister isn't much rich anymore. 

[lakin1013]

Many posts with good arguments but people have been saying that Jon and Dany marry since forever.  Does anyone think that GRRM would write something that cliched, something that is telegraphed from a mile away?  I don't.  There is something else here, yet to be known.

And some of the descriptions here of Jon and/or Dany are not the characters we watched. Jon does NOT TAKE anything, he seems to have things forced upon him.  Two examples: Sam engineered his win as Lord Commander, Lyanna Mormont stirred up things for the KoTN title. When Jon is forced to a responsibility, he fulfills it with honor.  Dany TAKES. Dany believes it is her natural birthright to see/conquer/rule whatever she wants. Dany will kill/burn/roast whatever is in her way.  I can actually see Dany with Jaime.  

And yes, I realize that the tv show is not the book, and D&D can do what they want but if most folks think a Jon/Dany marriage is a done deal, then I don't think it will happen. It just seems so planned that I honestly believe something else is afoot. We need another piece to slip in, so that we can see the bigger picture.

Finally, when folks start listing the eligible female and males, it seems Meera Reed is never mentioned.  I know her house is small but as far as I understand, it is an honorable house.  

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, Masha said:

The problem for Dany if there is a substantial proof that R+L=J and it becomes publicly known, whats to stop Jon (and the Large North, perhaps Vale and Riverlands together) claiming that the rightful heir is Jon, son of crown prince Rhaegar, not his youngest sister. Remember, Targs really prefer Primogeniture rule. 

By marrying Jon, not only Dany brings in North peacefully and gains familiar link to Starks including willing help from Bran, she also effectively neutralizes Jon's claims and potentially gains another Dragon rider.

 

Not sure about this dragon rider thing everybody is talking about. Show made it clear that Daeny can control them all and if they wanted to do something, they should've done something with Tyrion. Missandei said to Tyrion that dragons knows friends from foes and Tyrion was abl to fre them.

If there is proof and let's be honest not much of evidence left. Also Daeny is control and commands much bigger force than Jon could ever do. She would defeat them on the field, Jon wouldn't want to pursue Iron Throne because it's out of character for him. Also he's not rightful King, he needs to conquer it and Daeny stands in his way. North can be conquered but weather is the only thing that plays into their favour. Daeny not got much to gain from them, they need her more as white walkers and dragons can be useful.

3 hours ago, illinifan said:

Season 6 was really about maneuvering all the pieces into place and given where everyone ended up in Season 6, a marriage alliance between Jon and Dany makes a lot of sense.  Dany's break up scene with Daario only makes sense if political marriage is an upcoming plot point.  Right now a Jon-Dany match is just too overwhelmingly beneficial to both parties for it to be ignored.

Of course, there might be complications.  Both parties might not like each other.  Dany might not be willing to forge an alliance where she doesn't get everything she wants.  Jon's position might be undermined by LF.  Jon might receive confirmation of his heritage prior to the marriage and find the idea of marrying his auntie distasteful.

Not sure I would choose these words. It could be beneficial but not that much. Yes, she would gain North but that's pretty much it. Let's say Jon is still KitN. We don't know how Jon and Sansa relationship will be and she can control eventually Vale and Riverlands. It can turn pretty nasty. Jon is unlikely to control Vale. Riverlands might if he offers them good deal. Of course what if Jon is no longer King for whatever reason. He left LC position after his stabbing, maybe if he learns he's not Ned's son he'll leave this position. He could be still influential but as part of his honor. He would feel it belongs to Sansa as Ned's daughter. Jon is like this.

[LordImp]

I could see Jon and Dany marrying for peace and unity. Not for love. 

[illinifan]

17 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Not sure about this dragon rider thing everybody is talking about. Show made it clear that Daeny can control them all and if they wanted to do something, they should've done something with Tyrion. Missandei said to Tyrion that dragons knows friends from foes and Tyrion was abl to fre them.

If there is proof and let's be honest not much of evidence left. Also Daeny is control and commands much bigger force than Jon could ever do. She would defeat them on the field, Jon wouldn't want to pursue Iron Throne because it's out of character for him. Also he's not rightful King, he needs to conquer it and Daeny stands in his way. North can be conquered but weather is the only thing that plays into their favour. Daeny not got much to gain from them, they need her more as white walkers and dragons can be useful.

Not sure I would choose these words. It could be beneficial but not that much. Yes, she would gain North but that's pretty much it. Let's say Jon is still KitN. We don't know how Jon and Sansa relationship will be and she can control eventually Vale and Riverlands. It can turn pretty nasty. Jon is unlikely to control Vale. Riverlands might if he offers them good deal. Of course what if Jon is no longer King for whatever reason. He left LC position after his stabbing, maybe if he learns he's not Ned's son he'll leave this position. He could be still influential but as part of his honor. He would feel it belongs to Sansa as Ned's daughter. Jon is like this.

Yes.  Dany would gain the North without bloodshed.  That is the main reason why it is beneficial to her.  Invading the North would be a blunder on the level of Napoleon invading Russia.  This gets her Westros without that impossible inavsion.  The show and books have set up dragons to be a powerful weapon but not a complete domination.  That is one of the main points of Dany's Meereen arc; to convince her (and us) that she needs alliances and conventional military might to take the throne.

Moreover, let's suppose Dany is not greeted as a liberator as she expects to be.  Perhaps her alliance falls apart.  The Dothraki hordes rape and pillage.  And perhaps there is enough to convince enough people that Jon is Rhaegar's son.  Perhaps the marriage improves the regime's public image.  Moreover, it resolves any succession problems that may arise.

And yes, this scenario is based on Jon retaining political power in the North.  However, based on where all the pieces are now, it is a good match that benefits everyone.  Dany gets the North, political stability, and good PR.  Jon gets the dragons and autonomy for the North.

[Lurid Jester]

On June 27, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Ser Wun Wun said:

Looks like that's where it's headed.  Also looks like politics will motivate the match, instead of lurve at first sight or something like that.

I'm not expecting it to end well though, for obvious reasons. I don't even want to know what GRRM would do during that wedding.  I'll be a nervous wreck before that event, oh boy.     

As long as they're riding their dragons during the wedding... And don't invite ANYONE, they should be ok. 

Right?

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

4 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Many posts with good arguments but people have been saying that Jon and Dany marry since forever.  Does anyone think that GRRM would write something that cliched, something that is telegraphed from a mile away?  I don't.  There is something else here, yet to be known.

And some of the descriptions here of Jon and/or Dany are not the characters we watched. Jon does NOT TAKE anything, he seems to have things forced upon him.  Two examples: Sam engineered his win as Lord Commander, Lyanna Mormont stirred up things for the KoTN title. When Jon is forced to a responsibility, he fulfills it with honor.  Dany TAKES. Dany believes it is her natural birthright to see/conquer/rule whatever she wants. Dany will kill/burn/roast whatever is in her way.  I can actually see Dany with Jaime.  

And yes, I realize that the tv show is not the book, and D&D can do what they want but if most folks think a Jon/Dany marriage is a done deal, then I don't think it will happen. It just seems so planned that I honestly believe something else is afoot. We need another piece to slip in, so that we can see the bigger picture.

Finally, when folks start listing the eligible female and males, it seems Meera Reed is never mentioned.  I know her house is small but as far as I understand, it is an honorable house.  

I can see Dany/Euron, Dany/LF etc but Dany/Jamie... Well bye girl... Mad king or not that's her dad. I don't hate Jamie, he is an interesting character but marrying off to Dany turns me off so much. 

[nothatso]

2 hours ago, LordImp said:

I could see Jon and Dany marrying for peace and unity. Not for love. 

This is precisely where I'm coming from. I think they'd marry because it's politically and/or militarily beneficial, not out of love. Maybe love would come later, maybe not, but it wouldn't be the motivating factor behind such a union being initiated. Why people assume there needs to be some type of romance story to build up to a marriage is beyond me. It's a feudal society!

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Just now, nothatso said:

This is precisely where I'm coming from. I think they'd marry because it's politically and/or militarily beneficial. Maybe love would come later, maybe not, but it wouldn't be the motivating factor behind such a union being initiated. Why people assume there needs to be some type of romance story to build up to a marriage is beyond me. It's a feudal society!

In the book it's hinted that Dany might love Jon but not sure as a family or a romantic partner... However in the book Jon's type is not Dany... At least for now. So yes, if Jon is forced to marry Dany out of duty, it's possible.

But I still don't think they will get married. maybe Dany will be kidnapped by Euron and he will force her to marry him. 

[nothatso]

Just now, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

In the book it's hinted that Dany might love Jon but not sure as a family or a romantic partner... However in the book Jon's type is not Dany... At least for now. So yes, if Jon is forced to marry Dany out of duty, it's possible.

But I still don't think they will get married. maybe Dany will be kidnapped by Euron and he will force her to marry him. 

I think Dany being forced into a marriage with Euron is entirely plausible, but I don't think that's an "endgame" type thing. It wouldn't last very long.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Just now, nothatso said:

I think Dany being forced into a marriage with Euron is entirely plausible, but I don't think that's an "endgame" type thing. It wouldn't last very long.

Yes... Maybe Euron will use dragon horn or so to control her dragons and force her into marriage with him. She will find a way out and order her dragons to roast him. Or maybe it will be Jon who will rescue her? 

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, illinifan said:

Yes.  Dany would gain the North without bloodshed.  That is the main reason why it is beneficial to her.  Invading the North would be a blunder on the level of Napoleon invading Russia.  This gets her Westros without that impossible inavsion.  The show and books have set up dragons to be a powerful weapon but not a complete domination.  That is one of the main points of Dany's Meereen arc; to convince her (and us) that she needs alliances and conventional military might to take the throne.

Moreover, let's suppose Dany is not greeted as a liberator as she expects to be.  Perhaps her alliance falls apart.  The Dothraki hordes rape and pillage.  And perhaps there is enough to convince enough people that Jon is Rhaegar's son.  Perhaps the marriage improves the regime's public image.  Moreover, it resolves any succession problems that may arise.

And yes, this scenario is based on Jon retaining political power in the North.  However, based on where all the pieces are now, it is a good match that benefits everyone.  Dany gets the North, political stability, and good PR.  Jon gets the dragons and autonomy for the North.

She can easily burn strongholds in the North and let weather do the rest. Or demand for them to kneel in order to make peace. Literally they make Daeny unless Cersei or Euron do something as someone who doesn't need any alliance with power she has. Aegon Conqueror not even had that kind of army.

Daeny will be seen as liberator because you have Mad Queen Cersei. Dorne and Reach declared for Daeny. Stormlands will likely too. Westerlands with Tyrion's help will also and then we got only North, Riverlands and Vale. IronBorn will be hers too once she deals with Euron. She will make sure no more raving, raping or pillaging. She said ti to Yara that Ironborn has to be peaceful. I doubt there will be enough proof for people to believe that. We got word from Branb and Howland Reed so unless some solid proof and what it would be?Dragon egg, harp or cloak are what fans wishs but don't know about this.

It depends on a lot of things so Jon/Daeny match is far from certain or that benefitial.

 

[illinifan]

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

She can easily burn strongholds in the North and let weather do the rest. Or demand for them to kneel in order to make peace. Literally they make Daeny unless Cersei or Euron do something as someone who doesn't need any alliance with power she has. Aegon Conqueror not even had that kind of army.

Daeny will be seen as liberator because you have Mad Queen Cersei. Dorne and Reach declared for Daeny. Stormlands will likely too. Westerlands with Tyrion's help will also and then we got only North, Riverlands and Vale. IronBorn will be hers too once she deals with Euron. She will make sure no more raving, raping or pillaging. She said ti to Yara that Ironborn has to be peaceful. I doubt there will be enough proof for people to believe that. We got word from Branb and Howland Reed so unless some solid proof and what it would be?Dragon egg, harp or cloak are what fans wishs but don't know about this.

It depends on a lot of things so Jon/Daeny match is far from certain or that benefitial.

 

Yes.  She can burn things to the ground and be the queen over ashes.  That worked out so well for her in Meereen.  That is what Tyrion pointed out to Dany is the wrong thing to do.  All she will get from that is a resentful population and burnt strongholds.  

And let's point out all the ways Dany's invasion can and I suspect will go wrong.  

1.  Euron is up to something.  They didn't introduce the character this season if he doesn't play a really important role in the endgame.  I suspect that he allies with Dany and attacks the Reach and Dorne.  This distracts Dany's allies.  What is left of the Tyrell forces cannot siege KL if they have to head back to Oldtown and protect their own lands. 

2.  Speaking of Cersei, she just figured out a way to kill all her enemies.  She is quite crafty.  Perhaps Qyburn thinks of a way to disable the dragons.

3.  Winter has come and invading the North in winter is like invading Russia in winter.  Dany can burn down as many castles as she wants but she cannot march men into the North and hold it.  Jon can easily wage a guerilla war against her from Moat Caitlin.  Oh and Dany's armies definitely are not built for winter.

4.  The Dothraki act like Dothraki and start raping and pillaging.  This turns the population against her.  It also could turn her allies against her.  Do you think that Olenna is going to appreciate if the Dothraki start looting and raping their way through the Reach?  

5.  There is squabbling and different agendas.  Dorne and the Reach are out for vengeance.  I doubt that they care if Dany sits on the Iron Throne as long as they get that.  

6.  Who is to say that the populace prefers Mad Queen Dany to Mad Queen Cersei?  Yes, Cersei burns her enemies but so does Dany.  And Dany also has as an advisor one of the most hated "villains" in the world, Tyrion Lannister.  

7.  Jon's parentage has to come out in some way; and it has to complicate things for Dany or it doesn't make sense storytelling wise.  Why else put it in there?

[Chib]

Dragons are not invincible especially when it's in winter. I doubt that they like the winter in the North... they're reptiles after all. 

[Cragen]

16 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Many posts with good arguments but people have been saying that Jon and Dany marry since forever.  Does anyone think that GRRM would write something that cliched, something that is telegraphed from a mile away?  I don't.  There is something else here, yet to be known.

And some of the descriptions here of Jon and/or Dany are not the characters we watched. Jon does NOT TAKE anything, he seems to have things forced upon him.  Two examples: Sam engineered his win as Lord Commander, Lyanna Mormont stirred up things for the KoTN title. When Jon is forced to a responsibility, he fulfills it with honor.  Dany TAKES. Dany believes it is her natural birthright to see/conquer/rule whatever she wants. Dany will kill/burn/roast whatever is in her way.  I can actually see Dany with Jaime.  

And yes, I realize that the tv show is not the book, and D&D can do what they want but if most folks think a Jon/Dany marriage is a done deal, then I don't think it will happen. It just seems so planned that I honestly believe something else is afoot. We need another piece to slip in, so that we can see the bigger picture.

Finally, when folks start listing the eligible female and males, it seems Meera Reed is never mentioned.  I know her house is small but as far as I understand, it is an honorable house.  

Her house is most important house if someone wants to hold North, they lands are impossible for conquer and they and Moat Callien are main reason why North is never conquered.