Let's Discuss Arya's Pie Baking Logistics

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1. She spent the better part of season 1 training with the former first sword of Braavos.  She learned how to move silently and stand on one leg and outmaneuver cats and so forth.

2. She survived the kings road and Harrenhall.

3. She sailed across the sea and spent ~ 2 years training at a Jedi-Ninja super ass assassin college. 

This isn't rocket surgery, people.

[The Fattest Leech]

52 minutes ago, Zoo_Dane said:

She couldn't have gotten someone's assistance? Somehow slipped a few fingers in a premade pie? 

I obviously don't know the baking process so I can't comment on that... 

But all of that is honestly irrelevant. We have these discussions about minute details ever week. Rickon not zig-zagging was last week, LF teleporting before that, and on and on and on. It's for the plot point. She got her twisted revenge the same way Walder got his twisted revenge on Robb. 

"She got her twisted revenge the same way Walder got his twisted revenge on Robb."

No, Arya did not. What Arya did on the show was to literally just kill someone and shock the audience with a thumb in a pie. It was presented as a revenge killing and the look on Arya's face at the end, the long vacant, unblinking stare, just reeks of how twisted they are making Arya. And on top of it, the whole aspect created more questions than it answered as we see in this thread alone. The fact that people think this is anywhere near close to quality storytelling if Arya can "somehow" do anything is wrong.

What happened in the books goes so much deeper and was part of a multi-leveled, well planned attack from the northern houses. Lord Walder broke guest rights at the Red Wedding and Manderly was taking up his northern right to revenge and he was very careful in executing his plan based on that of the Rat Cook (info posted below). Manderly treated the three Freys at his castle well, provided guests right and even the customary parting gifts to the guest. When Manderly went to Winterfell to defend the Starks with the other northern houses, he was sure to provide all the food so that he was sure to get his rightful revenge and also to see that no one else was breaking the guests right that is held with such high honor in the north. Manderly even personally cuts and serves the pie to the Boltons and Freys to make sure they eat it.

From Dance: "True to his word, Manderly devoured six portions, two from each of the three pies, smacking his lips and slapping his belly and stuffing himself until the front of his tunic was half-brown with gravy stains and his beard was flecked with crumbs of crust. Even Fat Walda Frey could not match his gluttony, though she did manage three slices herself. Ramsay ate heartily as well, though his pale bride did no more than stare at the portion set before her. *When she raised her head and looked at Theon, he could see the fear behind her big brown eyes."

*just a note on this... every northern house knows "Arya" is not Arya Stark. They don't know she is Jeyne Poole, but they know she is not Arya, that she is suffering and there is mention of how helpless some feel because they hear her screams but can't help her.

The northern houses are coordinating themselves and fighting to take back the north from the Boltons/Lannisters. The Brotherhood without Banners is also fighting for revenge on the Red Wedding in some sects (LSH), and they are coordinated as hell from the riverlands, in and out of Riverrrun, to the north. There could be a little overlap here and there, but basically, Winterfell is being defended against "the bad guys" from both inside and out. The Frey Pie starts a fight inside the castle which is basically like step one for the northern houses to take back what is theirs. The Frey pies actually move some plot points along... and not just sit there like a disgusting tv schlock shock.

Rat Cook History

According to legend, the man who would later be known as the Rat Cook was a simple cook at the Nightfort. He became infamous when he served an Andal king (identified either as King Tywell II of the Rock or King Oswell I of the Vale^[2]) a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the king, the king's son. The cook killed the prince in revenge for a wrong the king supposedly did to him. The king was unaware of this, however, as he ate and praised the taste and asked for a second piece. The gods were angered — not because the cook had committed murder, nor because he had made the king a cannibal — but because the cook had slain a guest beneath his roof. They cursed the cook and transformed him into a massive rat who was doomed to be unable to eat anything but his own young.^[1]

According to the story, the Rat Cook is an enormous white rat who still lives in the Nightfort today, and all the other rats that inhabit the Nightfort are his descendants.^[1]

Song

Such is the infamy of the tale that there is a song about the Rat Cook that is still sung in the Seven Kingdoms, despite the fact that this incident was supposed to have happened hundreds of years before Aegon's Landing. The song is used to represent the repercussions to those who violate guest right, the sacred laws of hospitality.^[2]

Recent Events

A Storm of Swords

While in the Nightfort, Bran Stark remembers the tale of the Rat Cook, told to him by Old Nan.^[1]

A Dance with Dragons

At the wedding of Ramsay Bolton to the fake Arya Stark, Lord Wyman Manderly asks Abel the Bard to sing about the Rat Cook after he serves three large pork pies.^[3]

[tormund's beard]

19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

"She got her twisted revenge the same way Walder got his twisted revenge on Robb."

No, Arya did not. What Arya did on the show was to literally just kill someone and shock the audience with a thumb in a pie. It was presented as a revenge killing and the look on Arya's face at the end, the long vacant, unblinking stare, just reeks of how twisted they are making Arya. And on top of it, the whole aspect created more questions than it answered as we see in this thread alone. The fact that people think this is anywhere near close to quality storytelling if Arya can "somehow" do anything is wrong.

What happened in the books goes so much deeper and was part of a multi-leveled, well planned attack from the northern houses. Lord Walder broke guest rights at the Red Wedding and Manderly was taking up his northern right to revenge and he was very careful in executing his plan based on that of the Rat Cook (info posted below). Manderly treated the three Freys at his castle well, provided guests right and even the customary parting gifts to the guest. When Manderly went to Winterfell to defend the Starks with the other northern houses, he was sure to provide all the food so that he was sure to get his rightful revenge and also to see that no one else was breaking the guests right that is held with such high honor in the north. Manderly even personally cuts and serves the pie to the Boltons and Freys to make sure they eat it.

From Dance: "True to his word, Manderly devoured six portions, two from each of the three pies, smacking his lips and slapping his belly and stuffing himself until the front of his tunic was half-brown with gravy stains and his beard was flecked with crumbs of crust. Even Fat Walda Frey could not match his gluttony, though she did manage three slices herself. Ramsay ate heartily as well, though his pale bride did no more than stare at the portion set before her. *When she raised her head and looked at Theon, he could see the fear behind her big brown eyes."

*just a note on this... every northern house knows "Arya" is not Arya Stark. They don't know she is Jeyne Poole, but they know she is not Arya, that she is suffering and there is mention of how helpless some feel because they hear her screams but can't help her.

The northern houses are coordinating themselves and fighting to take back the north from the Boltons/Lannisters. The Brotherhood without Banners is also fighting for revenge on the Red Wedding in some sects (LSH), and they are coordinated as hell from the riverlands, in and out of Riverrrun, to the north. There could be a little overlap here and there, but basically, Winterfell is being defended against "the bad guys" from both inside and out. The Frey Pie starts a fight inside the castle which is basically like step one for the northern houses to take back what is theirs. The Frey pies actually move some plot points along... and not just sit there like a disgusting tv schlock shock.

Rat Cook History

According to legend, the man who would later be known as the Rat Cook was a simple cook at the Nightfort. He became infamous when he served an Andal king (identified either as King Tywell II of the Rock or King Oswell I of the Vale^[2]) a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the king, the king's son. The cook killed the prince in revenge for a wrong the king supposedly did to him. The king was unaware of this, however, as he ate and praised the taste and asked for a second piece. The gods were angered — not because the cook had committed murder, nor because he had made the king a cannibal — but because the cook had slain a guest beneath his roof. They cursed the cook and transformed him into a massive rat who was doomed to be unable to eat anything but his own young.^[1]

According to the story, the Rat Cook is an enormous white rat who still lives in the Nightfort today, and all the other rats that inhabit the Nightfort are his descendants.^[1]

Song

Such is the infamy of the tale that there is a song about the Rat Cook that is still sung in the Seven Kingdoms, despite the fact that this incident was supposed to have happened hundreds of years before Aegon's Landing. The song is used to represent the repercussions to those who violate guest right, the sacred laws of hospitality.^[2]

Recent Events

A Storm of Swords

While in the Nightfort, Bran Stark remembers the tale of the Rat Cook, told to him by Old Nan.^[1]

A Dance with Dragons

At the wedding of Ramsay Bolton to the fake Arya Stark, Lord Wyman Manderly asks Abel the Bard to sing about the Rat Cook after he serves three large pork pies.^[3]

not only large pork pies, long pork pies!

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, tormund's beard said:

not only large pork pies, long pork pies!

Served with a side of soilent greens.

I'd eat that... and I'm a vegetarian

[tugela]

10 hours ago, Mista C said:

1.  Infiltrates the Frey's castle.

2.  Kills two (at least) Frey's.

3.  Dismembers them for their meat.

4.  Brings meat to the kitchen.

5.  Assembles other pie ingredients.

6.  Prepares and bakes pie.

7.  Serves pie to Walder Frey, who is completely alone in his dining hall.

8.  Kills Walder Frey.

9. Escapes the Frey's castle.

So I'm having a very hard time with numbers 2-6.  She had to kill both Frey's without anyone seeing.  Then she had to bring both of their bodies somewhere secret where she could dismember the bodies and obtain their meat without anyone interrupting her.  Then she had to get their meat down to the kitchen somehow.  Then she had to assemble the ingredients, prepare the pie and bake the pie, all while in the company of the regular Frey kitchen staff, who were not at all concerned that there was a stranger using their kitchen to assemble and bake pies.  Cool scene, but logistically it just does not work.  Am I missing anything?

She was not a stranger, she was wearing the face of one of the serving girls (we saw the one in question smiling at Jaime during the feast held earlier). She would have fit right in and not been noticed because she looked like someone everyone expected to see.

It would not have taken too much effort getting the two sons alone. After all, she was wearing the face of one of the most attractive serving girls there, so a few batted eyelashes and come hither smiles would have them willingly going to whatever secret place she had prepared for their slaughter.

Beyond that it is a question of cutting off a bit of meat from each, heading to the kitchen (where no one would be surprised to see her), baking the pies and delivering them to Walder, who was supposed to be meeting the two missing sons for dinner.

If she was there, and the kitchen received instructions to prepare a meal for them, she could have executed that plan pretty quickly.

The better question would be what happened to the serving girl who the face originally belonged to? Did Arya slice her face off and dump the body in the Trident?

[Leto Atreides]

Why the hell would she bake the freys? She killed the sons and put their fingers in there for Lord Frey to find.

[hallam]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Goood heavens, no. This rumor needs to end.

The Frey name is inspired by something else completely different for the books. And the fact that the Frey pies happen in the books is for many more reasons than just a quasi-trained-assain-girl to make the lord take a bite of his kin. It has a much deeper meaning. 

 

So you are saying the fact that Fray Bentos is a brand of pie sold in a can isn't the reason that GRRM chose the names Frey and Bolton in the first place because he knew the legend of the Rat Cook?

You are aware that GRRM made the legend of the Rat Cook as well as Frey-Bolton?

No, the whole thing was obviously planned before Book 1 was even finished. GRRM certainly knew that he would be having the Red Wedding. GRRM loves putting puns into the books, this was one of them.

Obviously Arya hasn't eaten any FrayBentos pies, they don't have can openers in Westeros. But she has heard the legend of the Rat Cook.

5 hours ago, Mourneblade said:

He had already eaten a piece, the finger was in the second piece.

That wasn't made obvious. I think you might be right. But I think what the OP was complaining about was that he really wanted to see Walder Frey chow down on the pie, take a bite.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Jesus, what a pointless thread.

[The Fattest Leech]

15 minutes ago, hallam said:

So you are saying the fact that Fray Bentos is a brand of pie sold in a can isn't the reason that GRRM chose the names Frey and Bolton in the first place because he knew the legend of the Rat Cook?

You are aware that GRRM made the legend of the Rat Cook as well as Frey-Bolton?

No, the whole thing was obviously planned before Book 1 was even finished. GRRM certainly knew that he would be having the Red Wedding. GRRM loves putting puns into the books, this was one of them.

Obviously Arya hasn't eaten any FrayBentos pies, they don't have can openers in Westeros. But she has heard the legend of the Rat Cook.

That wasn't made obvious. I think you might be right. But I think what the OP was complaining about was that he really wanted to see Walder Frey chow down on the pie, take a bite.

Good god no. How did you get that idea? What I said was, "The Frey name is inspired by something else completely different for the books."

I am also saying that people need to stop believing the rumor that GRRM used Frey bentos pie as the inspiration for the Frey name in the books... (adding emphasis now) especially if they think GRRM did this just to write in a Frey pie five books later.

The name for the Freys, as with most of the book names, are inspired by other things like mythology, past historical figures, classic fairytale figures and even just re-do's of common names we have now. Eddard= Edward. He even talked about how he picks names at Balticon last month.

[tormund's beard]

10 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Jesus, what a pointless thread.

pointless post in a pointless thread.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Jesus, what a pointless thread.

Why so judgey? Clearly viewers have questions and want to talk about them to get answers or clarification.

[hallam]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Good god no. How did you get that idea? What I said was, "The Frey name is inspired by something else completely different for the books."

I am also saying that people need to stop believing the rumor that GRRM used Frey bentos pie as the inspiration for the Frey name in the books... (adding emphasis now) especially if they think GRRM did this just to write in a Frey pie five books later.

The name for the Freys, as with most of the book names, are inspired by other things like mythology, past historical figures, classic fairytale figures and even just re-do's of common names we have now. Eddard= Edward. He even talked about how he picks names at Balticon last month.

Has he said that it wasn't?

Lets try a bit of very elementary rhetoric. You say that my theory is definitely wrong because you are pretty sure that the book names are inspired by 'stuff'. But you don't know what stuff. 

You do know that there are several thousand names in the books and there are quite a few puns he has admitted. One of them is a reference to a sport team.

GRRM didn't know that he was going to take four more books to deliver the pie. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, hallam said:

Has he said that it wasn't?

Lets try a bit of very elementary rhetoric. You say that my theory is definitely wrong because you are pretty sure that the book names are inspired by 'stuff'. But you don't know what stuff. 

You do know that there are several thousand names in the books and there are quite a few puns he has admitted. One of them is a reference to a sport team.

GRRM didn't know that he was going to take four more books to deliver the pie. 

About four... out of the thousands, and they are tertiary level charcters, or less. NO major players. http://www.thewire.com/entertainment/2014/06/george-rr-martin-has-been-sneaking-famous-names-into-his-books-for-years/372680/

Trust me on this. I know where his names come from.

And the Red Wedding and the Rat Cook were both heavily foreshadowed in the second and third book and northern hospitality/guest rights was introduced in the first book. These are part of his broad strokes in storytelling and planned in advance, not plopped into the story because there was a hole to fill.

[Old Rusty Coin]

Who cares about pesky details - pie is served!

"They're here, my lord."

"They're already here, my lord."

"HERE, my lord."

Oh, and it's my lord, not mi'lord.

[Hound's She-Wolf 2]

I thought he said the name Frey was inspired by the Norse goddess of fertility, Freya because Walder had so many descendants.

[Zoo_Dane]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

"She got her twisted revenge the same way Walder got his twisted revenge on Robb."

No, Arya did not. What Arya did on the show was to literally just kill someone and shock the audience with a thumb in a pie. It was presented as a revenge killing and the look on Arya's face at the end, the long vacant, unblinking stare, just reeks of how twisted they are making Arya.   

The book and show are to different adaptations of the story. If you're still treating them as the same thing, you're missing something. 

But regardless, of course Arya is twisted... I'll only be referencing the show as Arya has been on different paths between the show and the book. 

She witnesses her father being beheaded, her brothers corpse with his dire wolfs head sewn onto it. She's travelled with rapists, murderers, the worst kings landing has to offer. She's killed and some whatever it took to survive. Then she joins an assassins guild that gives her the ability to kill anyone she would like. All this among hundreds of other messed up things that have happened to her, she's done, or witnessed. 

How would Arya not be twisted? She's on a mission to kill half of Westeros. Her ideas of revenge have twisted from their inception to now.

Walder Frey mutilated her brother and made a show of killing him. She mutilated his close relatives and made a show of killing them... Before killing Walder himself. I see similarities there whether you do or not. It's revenge, she's twisted. 

Was the pie necessary? No. It was obviously for extra shock value but again, it fits in a way with what Walder had done to Robb. 

(Yes I have read the books and am aware of the Rat Cook and the various other mentions you made,but as I said above, the show is not the books. The Rat Cook as far as any non reader is concerned doesn't exist and therefore in the show doesn't exist until mentioned otherwise)  

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Zoo_Dane said:

The book and show are to different adaptations of the story. If you're still treating them as the same thing, you're missing something. 

But regardless, of course Arya is twisted... I'll only be referencing the show as Arya has been on different paths between the show and the book. 

She witnesses her father being beheaded, her brothers corpse with his dire wolfs head sewn onto it. She's travelled with rapists, murderers, the worst kings landing has to offer. She's killed and some whatever it took to survive. Then she joins an assassins guild that gives her the ability to kill anyone she would like. All this among hundreds of other messed up things that have happened to her, she's done, or witnessed. 

How would Arya not be twisted? She's on a mission to kill half of Westeros. Her ideas of revenge have twisted from their inception to now.

Walder Frey mutilated her brother and made a show of killing him. She mutilated his close relatives and made a show of killing them... Before killing Walder himself. I see similarities there whether you do or not. It's revenge, she's twisted. 

Was the pie necessary? No. It was obviously for extra shock value but again, it fits in a way with what Walder had done to Robb. 

(Yes I have read the books and am aware of the Rat Cook and the various other mentions you made,but as I said above, the show is not the books. The Rat Cook as far as any non reader is concerned doesn't exist and therefore in the show doesn't exist until mentioned otherwise)  

The show is supposed to be based off the books. That is why when people have questions, they refer to where the answer could be... the books. Just like if you don't know the definition of a word, you go to the dictionary to find out.

What happened to Arya in the show up to the time she left for Braavos is very similar to what she experiences in the books. The books for Arya are actually worse because nothing had to be edited for running time sake.

What the show failed to do is actually train Arya to survive in her new world. Tv Arya is never taught anything, not the local language, not about poisons, not about being no one/the lying game, not about how to read and interprut other people in society. Tv Arya is beat with a stick and blinded for no reason. Seriously, what did she learn? Probably not to trust anyone anymore.

If Walder wanted Robb cooked into a pie, that is what he would have done, but he didn't because that wasn't the lesson. This fits new psycho Arya now.

"Was the pie necessary? No. It was obviously for extra shock value". So you just admitted that the show put the pies in there for extra shock value, ergo, the way they were done added nothing to the overall story.

Thank you.

[Ghosts Companion]

The scene was rushed and felt like it was thrown together. To be honest the minute I found out it was her I could only think of one thing:

Will Jon be willing to sentence his sister to death for murder, and swing the axe himself? Or will he send her away. She is seeking revenge, but he will still see it as a crime. I foresee some major conflict if it ever make it to that point.

[hallam]

45 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

About four... out of the thousands, and they are tertiary level charcters, or less. NO major players. http://www.thewire.com/entertainment/2014/06/george-rr-martin-has-been-sneaking-famous-names-into-his-books-for-years/372680/

Trust me on this. I know where his names come from.

And the Red Wedding and the Rat Cook were both heavily foreshadowed in the second and third book and northern hospitality/guest rights was introduced in the first book. These are part of his broad strokes in storytelling and planned in advance, not plopped into the story because there was a hole to fill.

Trust someone on the Internet who makes a broad assertion that they are right based on secret knowledge they can't share?

Bwahaaaaaaa

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, hallam said:

Trust someone on the Internet who makes a broad assertion that they are right based on secret knowledge they can't share?

Bwahaaaaaaa

It's not secret knowledge. It is actual information and I have shared with several on this board and I was there in the room with GRRM and about 8 other people for over an hour and we talked about just this subject, how he picks names. There is even another person on these forums that was there with me. The topic even came up that someone at Balticon legally changed her last name to Targaryen. She had her license to prove it.

So if you are going to laugh off any additional information... see ya and keep your small mind to yourself.