Let's Discuss Arya's Pie Baking Logistics

[Inigo Sand]

I didn't think that scene was too bad - I half-expected Arya to turn up at the celebrations and kill Walder and some other Freys, but thought odds on by poison.  I agree the pies were a nod to the books that didn't really fit, but it's easy to imagine her putting the fingers or whatever in pies that were about to be baked. 

[GeorgeIAF]

The only thing i am pissed is that we didn't saw those 2 bastards die on-screen.

[watcher of the night]

Problems with this:

1, Walder did not eat the pie.

2, Intresting parts happened off screen.

3, It makes little sense without the books.

[watcher of the night]

4 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Once again, I felt the moment was not earned.  It was just done for shock value.  There needs to be some lead up to event for it to actually be earned.  If she can just show up at the Twins and kill three of the most important Freys, what's to stop her from just showing up in King's Landing and killing Cersei?

Well, she can kill anyone anywhere, she is a certified "no one".

[Free Northman Reborn]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It just sucks. I mean, she didn't even savor the moment. Walder didn't even eat his own sons. I mean, anyone doing a thing like that must have the mind and taste of Wyman Manderly. You have to enjoy the taste of the Frey meat yourself and you must enjoy watching others do it without realizing what they are eating (like Walda and Roose).

That is the fun of it. What the show did is just crap. Complete crap.

Lord Varys, what a surprise! I thought you don't watch the Show?

Where can you and I discuss some of its implications for our ongoing debate about the future of the North, Jon  and Arya in books? Because I'm dying to have that discussion.

[robasp2]

16 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

Honest question - do the logistics of how it happened even matter? 

The moment was such a rewarding one, ending with a payoff we've all wanted since season 3. 

Why not just enjoy it. 

The bigger plottywotty thing was where she got the mask from, but we don't need everything answered for a scene to make sense. 

 

Man...people like you are the reason why the show is getting worse.

Im sorry, but I HAD to say it..

Ever since D&D began listening to the audience and writing scripts accordingly, the show began to suck..

This is a supposed to be a solid story goddamn it, not some fanfic.

"Ok we need revenge.."

Poof, Septa appears on a table. Lets torture her (god i thought they were done with Theon style torture porn..fuck)

Oh, we need some revenge on the Freys

"Poof, Arya appears and feeds him his sons"

Fuck no... I dont blame you for wanting revenge to be shown..damn, I wanted revenge for Ned Stark for so long.. George knows how to keep the story complex. He knows revenge is not so easy, but with patience and planning, it is possible.

But FUCK... I blame D&D for listening to and writing fanfics

[TwiceBorn]

0. Uses teleporting machine to get from Bravoos to Twins in a meantime.

[tugela]

7 hours ago, Leto Atreides said:

Why the hell would she bake the freys? She killed the sons and put their fingers in there for Lord Frey to find.

Because of the legend of the rat cook. Probably every northerner had heard the story, and it likely seemed very appropriate to her since Walder had violated guest right in the red wedding.

It was sort of like feeding Ramsey to his dogs.

[tugela]

4 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

0. Uses teleporting machine to get from Bravoos to Twins in a meantime.

She left Bravos 6 months before arriving at the Twins.

[Winter's Cold]

If Arya wasn't intelligent, how could she accomplish what she did this episode?

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys, what a surprise! I thought you don't watch the Show?

Where can you and I discuss some of its implications for our ongoing debate about the future of the North, Jon  and Arya in books? Because I'm dying to have that discussion.

I did binge-watch the first nine episodes last week and the final one yesterday. That way I'll quickly forget the details. It already begins the get blurry...

You can always write me a PM or start thread to do that thing. I'll give you a few tidbits here:

- Arya is not going to happen this way. The show is racing to the end and decided to get her to Westeros to fill in for Catelyn/Stark revenge in the Riverlands. That is not likely to happen in the books at all. I can see the wolves assisting Cat/the Brotherhood/Edmure and so on, but not Arya being there with them. And the Twins are likely to fall very soon in the books, after Edmure and the other hostages have been freed. The hands of the other Riverlords will be untied and we'll see Catelyn dealing with all the Freys (and especially Lord Walder) personally and thoroughly.

- I think Arya will become a Faceless Girl (at least officially/outwardly) and then get a mission of her own which is going to lead her back to Westeros eventually. My guess still is that her target will be Daenerys, connecting her with Dany and her gang and then subsequently with Jon and his people but it is also possible that she'll get a target in Westeros. But Arya trying to kill Dany and the dragons will create much more tension.

- Since I don't see Rickon dying the way he does (or at all - at least not this early in the story) and I don't see Jon Snow leading an army to take Winterfell when Stannis and the loyal Northmen are actually going to do this right now (the show just excised Stannis from that plot and put Jon and Sansa into the plot instead) I don't think Jon Snow will be made King in the North. What we saw in episode 9 was Stannis final fight against the Boltons. Jon's kingship should be as brief in the show as Cersei's stint on the Iron Throne considering that Bran is coming with the news about his heritage as well as Dany (his only possible ally against Cersei/Euron and the Others).

- Jon's resurrection is going to leave him traumatized, sulking, and wolfish (depending how long he is going to spend in Ghost). I don't think he'll be in any shape to lead anyone after he comes back. What the show did there with 'sulking Jon' might be there in the books, too, although on a completely different level. He certainly will have come around eventually and take charge. At the latest when Stannis dies, but he might be off doing other stuff even before that (going to Hardhome or trying to find out what the Others are up to).

- By the way, I don't think Melisandre will survive Stannis in the books. If the Shireen sacrifice born out of desperation in the books doesn't work the way it is supposed to (which it won't) Stannis will kill Melisandre himself.

And while I don't believe in any Great Northern Conspiracy the way the show depicted the Northmen was atrocious. They are neither cravens nor traitors. The entire Ramsay plot is not going to happen this way in the books at all. Ramsay isn't even a main character, and everything in the books makes it clear that Ramsay could not keep Roose's allies in line should his father die.

I'm not sure Roose/Ramsay will die at Winterfell, but they hold over the North will be definitely be broken at Winterfell.

[RhaenysBee]

9 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Is there something about dinosaurs, and our knowledge of them, that seems lacking in consistency or logic?

Forget even the problems with the logistics of time, WTF did Arya learn to cook.  She certainly was never sent to the kitchens with Uma on the show, and I'm not remembering her giving much attention to Hot Pie's instructions on how to actually make the pie.  I'll give her a pass on dismembering skills, that, and cleaning and getting the crap kicked out of her by The Waif is about all she seemed to learn.

And.....the idea of her just pulling a face out of her ass is..........an ass pull.  They should have either shown her learning the glamour method or.......stealing a few on her way out.  Still, DOES leave the question of proper storage, doesn't it?  

It's not a logical switch from Manderly and the pies to Arya.  Manderly had wagons of supplies, tons of men on the road, was expected to bring and provide food for the REAL DEAL PIES, and all of these things made it quite doable for him.  Arya, she's talented but.....come on.  Fan service, minus dinosaurs.  

You know... Dinosaurs are extinct the same way logistics, logic and consistency is extinct in the show. 

[khal drogon]

Logistics aside the decision to make Arya bake Freys into pie completely ruins her character. What she did is in the league of Ramsay. Even Ramsay wouldn't be savage enough to bake people into pies. Arya did a thing worse psychopaths do and people here cheer for her. That's really sad to see.

[Winter's Cold]

2 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Logistics aside the decision to make Arya bake Freys into pie completely ruins her character. What she did is in the league of Ramsay. Even Ramsay wouldn't be savage enough to bake people into pies. Arya did a thing worse psychopaths do and people here cheer for her. That's really sad to see.

Eating your own kin is the punishment for breaking guest right according to the show. Remember the Rat cook story? Yeah Ramsay wouldn't bake people into pies. He'd flay them, rape them, torture them, castrate them, have his hounds eat them alive and mentally break them. But baking people into pies, that's too far.

[Free Northman Reborn]

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I did binge-watch the first nine episodes last week and the final one yesterday. That way I'll quickly forget the details. It already begins the get blurry...

You can always write me a PM or start thread to do that thing. I'll give you a few tidbits here:

- Arya is not going to happen this way. The show is racing to the end and decided to get her to Westeros to fill in for Catelyn/Stark revenge in the Riverlands. That is not likely to happen in the books at all. I can see the wolves assisting Cat/the Brotherhood/Edmure and so on, but not Arya being there with them. And the Twins are likely to fall very soon in the books, after Edmure and the other hostages have been freed. The hands of the other Riverlords will be untied and we'll see Catelyn dealing with all the Freys (and especially Lord Walder) personally and thoroughly.

- I think Arya will become a Faceless Girl (at least officially/outwardly) and then get a mission of her own which is going to lead her back to Westeros eventually. My guess still is that her target will be Daenerys, connecting her with Dany and her gang and then subsequently with Jon and his people but it is also possible that she'll get a target in Westeros. But Arya trying to kill Dany and the dragons will create much more tension.

- Since I don't see Rickon dying the way he does (or at all - at least not this early in the story) and I don't see Jon Snow leading an army to take Winterfell when Stannis and the loyal Northmen are actually going to do this right now (the show just excised Stannis from that plot and put Jon and Sansa into the plot instead) I don't think Jon Snow will be made King in the North. What we saw in episode 9 was Stannis final fight against the Boltons. Jon's kingship should be as brief in the show as Cersei's stint on the Iron Throne considering that Bran is coming with the news about his heritage as well as Dany (his only possible ally against Cersei/Euron and the Others).

- Jon's resurrection is going to leave him traumatized, sulking, and wolfish (depending how long he is going to spend in Ghost). I don't think he'll be in any shape to lead anyone after he comes back. What the show did there with 'sulking Jon' might be there in the books, too, although on a completely different level. He certainly will have come around eventually and take charge. At the latest when Stannis dies, but he might be off doing other stuff even before that (going to Hardhome or trying to find out what the Others are up to).

- By the way, I don't think Melisandre will survive Stannis in the books. If the Shireen sacrifice born out of desperation in the books doesn't work the way it is supposed to (which it won't) Stannis will kill Melisandre himself.

And while I don't believe in any Great Northern Conspiracy the way the show depicted the Northmen was atrocious. They are neither cravens nor traitors. The entire Ramsay plot is not going to happen this way in the books at all. Ramsay isn't even a main character, and everything in the books makes it clear that Ramsay could not keep Roose's allies in line should his father die.

I'm not sure Roose/Ramsay will die at Winterfell, but they hold over the North will be definitely be broken at Winterfell.

I'm not sure where to create the new thread, but will give it a try in the General GoT section, and see if it is the right home for it. See you there, because there is a lot to discuss.

[storm.131]

18 hours ago, JMJ said:

Also, where did she get the face she wore? Did she kill someone on the way to the Twins? 

Yep, the pie was far fetched but I thought at the time that maybe she simply stuck Black Walder's finger into a regular pie she got from the kitchen but lied about both Frey sons' meat having been used for the filling to freak old Frey out in his last moments.

I had a bigger problem with the face swap.  At best it would have meant Jaqen let her take a few faces with her.  At worst, it would have meant she killed an innocent woman for the sake of taking her face and that is completely out of character for Arya.

[khal drogon]

1 minute ago, Winter's Cold said:

Eating youtr own kin is the rnishment for breaking guest right according to the show. Remember the Rat cook story? Yeah Ramsay wouldn't bake people into pies. He'd flay them, rape them, torture them, castrate them, have his hounds eat them alive and mentally break them. But baking people into pies, that's too far.

Psychopaths are psychopaths if they are baking people into pies or flaying people. Sure Freys are bad but that doesn't make what she did right. What are you saying with the RatCook story. That breaking guest right taboo is worser than feeding his own kin to a man. That may work in universe but that does not make it morally better. Arya now clearly enjoys killing in worst ways and it's not good. I don't think Ned Stark would be proud of his daughter. 

[Winter's Cold]

6 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Psychopaths are psychopaths if they are baking people into pies or flaying people. Sure Freys are bad but that doesn't make what she did right. What are you saying with the RatCook story. That breaking guest right taboo is worser than feeding his own kin to a man. That may work in universe but that does not make it morally better. Arya now clearly enjoys killing in worst ways and it's not good. I don't think Ned Stark would be proud of his daughter. 

If Arya is a psycopath, why didn't she kill Lady Crane?

Yes breaking guest right is the worst thing in Westeros. That's the main reason why the Freys are reviled and why the Red Wedding was such an unthinkable act. 

Arya does enjoy getting revenge that's true but at least she doesn't harm innocent people.

Arya was also the one who saw that Greywind/Robb abomination that the Freys were responsible for. The main reason she joined the faceless men was to get revenge on the Freys. The past two seasons were mainly for this moment. Of course she would savor it. It doesn't make her a psycopath

The sweet innocent Arya from season 1 died when Ned's head was chopped off and her family was butchered at the Red Wedding. That is sad, I agree but Westeros has no mercy for little girls (Myrcella and Shireen) and I'd rather Arya become the killer instead of the killed.

[yomi]

21 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Psychopaths are psychopaths if they are baking people into pies or flaying people. Sure Freys are bad but that doesn't make what she did right. What are you saying with the RatCook story. That breaking guest right taboo is worser than feeding his own kin to a man. That may work in universe but that does not make it morally better. Arya now clearly enjoys killing in worst ways and it's not good. I don't think Ned Stark would be proud of his daughter. 

There is nothing hinting at her killing them in any remarkably cruel way. As far as we know, she only baked parts of them into a pie after she killed them. That's not killing them in worst ways, that's just treating dead bodies badly.

And yes, Ned probably wouldn't be proud, but Ned is dead.

[Reuben Stoneheart]

This was the only bit i disliked about the episode. It was completely rushed with no thought behind it at all.

I know there are time constraints but the whole "Frey Pie" thing could have been done so much better in my opinion.