Let's Discuss Arya's Pie Baking Logistics

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, Yin & Yang said:

ASOIAF / GOT fans are seriously just the worst sometimes.

I don't understand why you're so hung up on logistics. Why do you need to know every detail to know how making these pies was possible? So many in here have already given simple explanations (Arya cut off a hand and inserted it into a pre-made pie and told the story so Walder Frey would have a moment of dread before his death).

All that matters is whether Arya had a motive, which she clearly did. You people wanting to see every detail probably wanted to see Tyrion spend a whole season sharpening his cyvase skills and asking random strangers "where do whores go". Or maybe you wanted Brienne to spend a whole season walking around asking people if they had seen a "highborn maid of three and ten with a fair face and auburn hair". Talk about riveting television.

Thinking that things can be inserted into a pre-made pie of that type just shows ignorance of how a pie like that is made. Getting those fingers in that pie would not be easy. If you understand how hard it would be, than it messes with suspension of disbelief. I guess in this instance ignorance is bliss.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

37 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Thinking that things can be inserted into a pre-made pie of that type just shows ignorance of how a pie like that is made. Getting those fingers in that pie would not be easy. If you understand how hard it would be, than it messes with suspension of disbelief. I guess in this instance ignorance is bliss.

Ah, baking. So much mystery. Who can possibly comprehend it?

[Yin & Yang]

45 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Thinking that things can be inserted into a pre-made pie of that type just shows ignorance of how a pie like that is made. Getting those fingers in that pie would not be easy. If you understand how hard it would be, than it messes with suspension of disbelief. I guess in this instance ignorance is bliss.

This is fantasy. I have to suspend my belief in just about everything if I want to enjoy it. I know people can't come back from the dead but it didn't stop me from enjoying Jon's resurrection. 

[Cron]

The whole pie thing was simply for dramatic effect, The End.

Why didn't Walder yell for help as soon as he realized he was in danger?  It was improbable that he was alone in the room in the first place, but off hte charts unlikely that no one else was within hearing distance if he had yelled.

Arya's pie plan dramatically increased the risk that she would be caught and/or otherwise fail, but of course her plot armor rivals Aejon's..

A truly deadly assassin would have simply, casually, walked behind Walder and garotted him before he ever even knew he was in danger, and been gone from the castle (via pre-arranged escape route) within about 20 seconds or less, without ever even removing her fake face.

But, of course, that would have been mundane, so we got all the pie stuff instead.

[EllieDriver]

3 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Arya is a very meticulous killer. She plans her kills to ensure that her target's experience the greatest suffering possible before finishing them.

I don't think you're watching the same show the rest of us are watching.

Going backwards from Frey:

Waif: Arya wanders Bravos oblivious to danger, gets knifed, gets rescued, gets found out and goes back on the run for needle, and at the last minute whiffs out the candle for an advantage. Waif's suffering: probably not much.

Meryn Trant: Initial attempt at assassination goes awry, becomes a prolonged, messy attack. Trant's suffering: probably a good deal, but it wasn't intended.

Hound: Arya walked away and let nature take its course. Suffering: long. Kill: incomplete.

Crossroads Inn guy: spontaneous fight, with taunting before the finish. Suffering: short.

Lannister Stableboy: spontaneous reaction to threat. Suffering: short.

The point is, most of Arya's kills have been spontaneous, and/or messy affairs. Walder is probably the cleanest she's done yet, and the first with any real planning.

 

2 hours ago, Yin & Yang said:

I don't understand why you're so hung up on logistics. Why do you need to know every detail to know how making these pies was possible?

D & D took pains to find a reason to send Lancel on a chase that would eventually bring him to the Wildfire cache, stayed with him as he crawled across the floor, so that we could see all that and let the tension build before the boom. What they did with Arya, by comparison, was a cheap short-cut.

 

 

[RoamingRonin]

15 minutes ago, Cron said:

The whole pie thing was simply for dramatic effect, The End.

Why didn't Walder yell for help as soon as he realized he was in danger?  It was improbable that he was alone in the room in the first place, but off hte charts unlikely that no one else was within hearing distance if he had yelled.

Arya's pie-making merely increased the risk that she would be caught and/or otherwise fail.

A truly deadly assassin would have simply, casually, walked behind Walder and garotted him before he ever even knew he was in danger, and been gone from the castle (via pre-arranged escape route) within about 20 seconds or less, without ever even removing her fake face.

But, of course, that would have been mundane, so we got all the pie stuff instead.

No, it's not. He talked to Catelyn alone. He talked to Roose Bolton while a cleaning woman scrubbed blood after the red wedding. It's not unusual for him to dine without guards with just a serving woman to tend to him.

Arya didn't want to simply assassinate him. She wanted Walder to know he was being killed by a Stark. It's not about being mundane. It's about Arya's list of victims and her desire for revenge. You miss the point when you think about nothing else but logistics and forget character motivations.

[Cron]

4 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

No, it's not. He talked to Catelyn alone. He talked to Roose Bolton while a cleaning woman scrubbed blood after the red wedding. It's not unusual for him to dine without guards with just a serving woman to tend to him.

Arya didn't want to simply assassinate him. She wanted Walder to know he was being killed by a Stark. It's not about being mundane. It's about Arya's list of victims and her desire for revenge. You miss the point when you think about nothing else but logistics and forgive character motivations.

Yes, I understand Arya's motivation in wanting Walder to know he was killed by a Stark.   She basically flat out said it to him.

But her pie plan unnecessarily increased the risk of failure of her "mission."  I maintain my opinion that a truly deadly efficient assassin would never have done such a thing, it would have been more along the lines of what I said (garotte from behind when Walder suspected nothing, which would also have eliminated the risk of him screaming for help).

But that's not dramatic, it's just simple and deadly efficient, so instead we got the whole pie thing

Note also that the pie thing DID NOT cause Walder to know he was killed by a Stark, which you are (correctly) saying was Arya's motivation.  She could have shown him her face and told him who she was, without ever doing the whole pie thing at all.

i continue to believe the entire pie thing was superfluous, and included purely for dramatic effect.

[twilight]

1 hour ago, Cron said:

I maintain my opinion that a truly deadly efficient assassin would never have done such a thing, it would have been more along the lines of what I said (garotte from behind when Walder suspected nothing, which would also have eliminated the risk of him screaming for help).

She ist just doing what she has learned from the Faceless Men. Remember the waif. That girl jumped into the middle of the street and left 1000 witnesses behind. "Truly deadly efficient assassin" means nowadays to have super-black clothing and super special weapons that tell everyone from 5 miles that you're a secret assassin. And if you don't have those things, you give out your business cards so that everyone know who you are.

In such a world Arya was super efficient.

[ununsullied]

On 27 June 2016 at 3:46 PM, Mista C said:

1.  Infiltrates the Frey's castle.

2.  Kills two (at least) Frey's.

3.  Dismembers them for their meat.

4.  Brings meat to the kitchen.

5.  Assembles other pie ingredients.

6.  Prepares and bakes pie.

7.  Serves pie to Walder Frey, who is completely alone in his dining hall.

8.  Kills Walder Frey.

9. Escapes the Frey's castle.

So I'm having a very hard time with numbers 2-6.  She had to kill both Frey's without anyone seeing.  Then she had to bring both of their bodies somewhere secret where she could dismember the bodies and obtain their meat without anyone interrupting her.  Then she had to get their meat down to the kitchen somehow.  Then she had to assemble the ingredients, prepare the pie and bake the pie, all while in the company of the regular Frey kitchen staff, who were not at all concerned that there was a stranger using their kitchen to assemble and bake pies.  Cool scene, but logistically it just does not work.  Am I missing anything?

I didn't care about the logistics or any of that but why have 2 whole series of Arya learning in the most boring way possible how to be noone

fighting with that stupid waif person, on and on an on when we all knew she was still a Stark at heart, and then do this whole Frey retribution thing in 2 minutes???!!! As a non book reader W. Frey is a big character. He was the big baddie behind the Red Wedding and I wanted to see him get his comeuppance in a big way - as others have said, this could have been a whole episode.

I think one of the reasons for the show going down hill is that they have negotiated 2 more short series and it is just not enough time to tell the story properly. There is too much to do and they are having to dispose of whole storylines quickly. But if we had got rid of a few Arya in training episodes we would have had enough time to tell this properly.

The start of this episode was great because it took it's time with the storytelling, with Cersei, the suspense.

[Count Winter]

So, what's Arya up to next. Who will be her next victim?

[SerJimmyJangle]

FFS.

If Tesco can get horse meat into a few thousand beefburgers "by accident", it's not too far-fetched to imagine that Arya could sneak a few fillets o' Frey into the meat grinder while no one is looking.

I've seen pies made "ye olde way", and you could smuggle anything into that heap of offal and nobody would be any the wiser for it.

[adiman83]

7 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

I do think Arya is capable of doing something similar in the books. She likes to make her vengeance poetic. The main reason that Arya baked Lothar Frey and Black Walder Frey into pies and then fed them to Walder was to emulate the Rat Cook story of Season 3 episode 10.

In the books it's likely that she will have Nymeria and her pack eat them alive due to the Frey lie that the Northerners became wolves during the Red Wedding. 

Arya is a very meticulous killer. She plans her kills to ensure that her target's experience the greatest suffering possible before finishing them. She wants those that she hates to experience her pain rather than giving them a quick painless execution. 

Walder didn't suffer that much! Not physically, anyway.

[Sam with Hooters]

12 hours ago, SerJimmyJangle said:

FFS.

If Tesco can get horse meat into a few thousand beefburgers "by accident", it's not too far-fetched to imagine that Arya could sneak a few fillets o' Frey into the meat grinder while no one is looking.

I've seen pies made "ye olde way", and you could smuggle anything into that heap of offal and nobody would be any the wiser for it.

Yeah, if we assume that Old Man Frey's lunch was going to be meat pie anyway, and that the servants were preparing one, not too hard to sneak some fingers into the mix.  She has obviously been in Riverrun awhile.  (Also avoids the problem of her not being trained in pastry-making).

 

FWIW, meat grinders in our universe are a fairly recent invention.  Ye Olde Way was mincing by hand.

I wonder if Arya harvested the Freyces?

[Dragonslack]

Yes it was for dramatic effect and yes they dont care about logistics or logic.

What I am disappointed about is the bad storytelling and lames scenes. Why all that if not to finally see some cool ninja assassin infiltration and show of skills? Its was meh, and I guess they did it because of short time and for the SURPRISE, but everybody was expecting it so...

Another factor is the common stupid viewer, they know they cannot make it too complicated or sophisticated, lots if shows are like that. They dont bother doing a better plot for the few.

[RoamingRonin]

22 hours ago, Cron said:

Yes, I understand Arya's motivation in wanting Walder to know he was killed by a Stark.   She basically flat out said it to him.

But her pie plan unnecessarily increased the risk of failure of her "mission."  I maintain my opinion that a truly deadly efficient assassin would never have done such a thing, it would have been more along the lines of what I said (garotte from behind when Walder suspected nothing, which would also have eliminated the risk of him screaming for help).

But that's not dramatic, it's just simple and deadly efficient, so instead we got the whole pie thing

Note also that the pie thing DID NOT cause Walder to know he was killed by a Stark, which you are (correctly) saying was Arya's motivation.  She could have shown him her face and told him who she was, without ever doing the whole pie thing at all.

i continue to believe the entire pie thing was superfluous, and included purely for dramatic effect.

You misunderstand Arya's motivations. She was not trying to be a "truly deadly efficient assassin". Her goal was to get revenge and reap bloody satisfaction. Yes, she risked getting caught by using the pie and revealing herself but to Arya doing that was well worth it. It's the same reason why Wyman Manderly bakes the pies in the books. There's no real point to it other than a personal grudge.

[sifth]

I love how Arya on the show can just magically change faces, she doesn't have to be taught how the faces work like it in the books. I suppose this is just another thing that "happens" off camera, lol

[darthShana]

If i could write the scene :-)

I would go to the great feast with the freys and the lanisters.. but his 2 sons are missing.. They are late coming back, everyone is wondering where they are while eating pie..

Then after the feast Arya gets him alone in the hall with maybe one or two guards outside.. then she gets him to repeat more lines from the red wedding by cutting him like she played things in the mercy chapter. She could even get a singer to play the rains of casmer while shes cutting him up..

She fakes loosing controle to the gurads as they come in....She threatens to slit his throat.. but offers his release in return for her escape.. She replay the final scene of her mother... an exchange... a life for a life (a stark for a frey)? Walder thinks hes safe... and then as The guards try to intervene.. they step forward they drop dead (poisoned already)

Then she slits walder freys throat.. the look of disbiefe in his face 

Mic drop! walk away...

GOT has always been about making you feel.. (anger, fear, sorrow or relief, happyness).. This scene as it was shown and a some of the others (like dawn) lacked that and was just about giving us facts..

anyone for a fan driven we-write of season 6?

[caravaggio]

Here's how I would have done it...

Scene 1: Arya walking along in the Riverlands and bumps into two Frey sons. We the audience fear for Arya.

Scene 2: The party scene with Jaime, Walder, and Arya walking around with the servants face. Pretty much the same, but we see everyone eating the pie. Walder loves it and the server girl/Arya brings him more.

Scene 3: Same scene with Walder alone, but he's scrapping up the last bits of pie and asking servant/Arya if there is any more. Then she reveals it and kills him.

 

I think that could have worked in the show and really you only added one short scene. As a bonus, the whole pie eating thing has a lot more shock value as you think back to the party.

[tmug]

This discussion on Arya's Frey Pie Logistics/Timing reminds me of this reddit thread on how hot Dothraki like their soup. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3f0qk7/spoilers_agot_dothraki_eating_habits/

Apparently Dothraki eat their soup at a temperature hot enough to melt gold!

Pls finish the book GRRM... 

[Cron]

22 hours ago, twilight said:

She ist just doing what she has learned from the Faceless Men. Remember the waif. That girl jumped into the middle of the street and left 1000 witnesses behind. "Truly deadly efficient assassin" means nowadays to have super-black clothing and super special weapons that tell everyone from 5 miles that you're a secret assassin. And if you don't have those things, you give out your business cards so that everyone know who you are.

In such a world Arya was super efficient.

I don't recall Arya being taught the pie stuff by the Faceless Men in the show or the books..

I guess I don't have a huge problem with most of the scene, but the pie thing was not the work of a deadly efficient assassin, it was something different altogether as far as I'm concerned, and as others have pointed out, is making some people wonder about whether Arya is still a "good guy" or not. (Personally, I DO believe she's a "good guy," and the pie thing was out of character, but I guess we'll see if GRRM puts it in the books.  When GRRM speaks, it's canon, so I guess if he says Arya does the pie thing, then that's who she is.  My guess is that Arya won't do the pie thing in the book, though)