The military and combat experience of various characters

[Ser Something]

I'd like to discuss the military and combat experience of various characters, or lack of. Which ones are surprising, which ones are dealt with well, which don't quite make sense or are a mystery, and which ones are different on the HBO show.

Before I go on I should say I'm not doing this with exact references and my books to hand, this is just off the top of my head, so feel free to point out things I might have missed, or correct me!

Ok, so any good fantasy medieval epic has lots of heroic and villainous characters swinging swords around and killing foes left right and centre. I am very interested in real military history, and prefer a more realistic portrayal of these sorts of things. For the most part I find GRRM does this very well. In particular he doesn't have characters killing enemies by the score - if someone kills three or four people in battle it is considered something of note. There is one glaring exception though which I will get to....

Something worth considering is that there is a big difference between tournament combat and actual warfare. Some characters are renowned as swordsmen or jousters, but that doesn't mean they actually have any experience of real battle. Likewise, some characters never compete in tournaments and their skills at arms are never mentioned, but they might have extensive military experience.

Another thing I want to look at its which characters have killed before and which haven't.

Let's consider what wars characters in the books could have been involved in, depending on their age.

1 - The Greyjoy Rebellion.

2 - Robert's Rebellion.

3 - The War Of The Ninepenny Kings.

4 - All sorts of battles and skirmishes against wildlings, pirates, and other raiders.

5 - Fighting as mercenaries in Essos.

6 - Private feuds, duels, and minor battles with neighbours.

Let's look at some characters!

Robb Stark

Robb's the perfect place to start. The books get across very well the fact that he is young and has not been to war before. This is mostly done through Cat's thoughts. We see through her eyes that he is at first nervous, unsure of himself, and inexperienced. His first taste of battle is the Whispering Wood. Prior to this we can assume his only combat experience is sparring and training at Winterfell. Though Cat worries a lot about him, interestingly she never gives any thought to him killing for the first time. Of course he might not have actually crossed swords with anyone at the Whispering Wood, but we can probably assume he was in the thick of things, considering members of his bodyguard died and Grey Wind saw some action. Did he kill his first man or men here? Probably. We don't know what's going on in his mind. I do find it surprising that it never crossed Cat's mind though. In the HBO show, he is a fair bit older and seems more used to battle.

Arya Stark

Not much needs to be said about Arya. We see her kill her first man (boy), and we see what goes on in her head.

Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon

I've put these two together. Obviously they both fought in Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion, two significant campaigns which would have given them lots of experience. They were both fairly young at the time of the first. Robert was known to be a great warrior, whereas Ned's combat prowess are never really mentioned. I'd like to argue he was competent but nothing noteworthy. We don't really know what went on at the Tower of Joy. I wonder if their Rebellion was their first taste of war. What wars or battles could they have fought in previously? Was all of Robert's experience and skill up to that point due to sparring and tournaments? Did either of them fight in any other minor battles or skirmishes?

Theon Greyjoy

Interestingly, in the HBO show Theon and Robb seem to be the same age. In the books, Theon is notably older. He doesn't come across as a boy like Robb, though a lot of this is due to his cockyness. I'm guessing he must have the same lack of experience as Robb. They grew up together since Theon was ten (?). Though there is always a chance that Theon might have got up to some stuff behind the scenes, so it's more likely he could have killed before. The Whispering Wood must surely be his first battle, his first taste of warfare, and likely his first kill(s). He covers it up with his cocky attitude. I'm sure he was just as nervous as Robb!

Jon Snow

Jon's a very interesting case. Like Robb, he probably has no experience beyond sparring before he goes to the wall. So, if the first 'man' he kills actually a Wight? And is his first taste of actual man-on-man combat against the Wildlings? Makes the fact that he killed the Halflhand even more significant. His first taste of actual battle would be defending the Wall against Mance's army, during which he was using a longbow due to his earlier injury. My memory might be failing me on this one, but does he not actually use his sword during the battle? Makes the fact that he was effectively in command for much of it even more noteworthy. In the HBO show, they find lots more room for him to be heroically swinging his sword around and killing deserters, wildlings and Bolton soldiers.

Tyrion Lannister

We can probably assume that Tyrion has seen no battle or combat prior to the books, though he would have had the privilege of training if he wanted it. that's why I found it rather surprising that at the Battle of the Green Fork, he seemed to come across as a fairly experienced soldier. He wore armour, mounted his horse and led his troops into battle, where he killed several men with an axe. Went surprisingly well for him!

Jaime Lannister

Jaime obviously has quite a reputation for being a skilled swordsman, most of which came from his success at tourneys and joining the Kingsguard at a young age. His time fighting the Kingswood Brotherhood must have been a very formative experience for him, and that's probably where he killed his first man. We don't really know much about that campaign, but we can probably assume it was more skirmishes rather than pitched battles. So with that in mind, surely the army he leads in A Game Of Thrones is his first actual large-scale miltiary campaign, and his first time leading an army? Is the Whispering Wood his first true battle???

Brienne of Tarth

Brienne is a very interesting case, and who made me first look at this subject. We know that she is a very skilled figher, especially noteworthy as she is a woman. But I think we can assume all her fighting experience is in the training yard. Her success at the Bitterbridge melee is the high point of her career at that point, a real triumph. But as the books progress, she gets to see some real action, and it's not pretty or glorious. I recently re-read her chapters, and her fight against Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg at Crackclaw Point really stood out to me. It's a fantastic sequence, but I also realised that was the first time she had actually used a sword in a REAL fight, and the first time she had killed a man. It's quite an emotional experience for her, especially considering her history with these guys. Also interesting that her first real fight has her using a Valyrian sword. Some time later she has another even more gritty showdown, with Rorge and Biter. She kills again, and at great cost to her face! She is definitely coming to realise that being a knight and using a sword is not very glamorous.

Having typed this, I just realised that she had obviously undergone some serious hardships and dangerous situations before Crackclaw Point, but I don't think she killed anyone prior? She had a fun river chase escaping Riverrun, and I think she threw rocks at Robin Ryger's boat, but didn't kill anyone, right? And her time with the Brave Companions saw her bite Vargo Hoat's ear off, but again I don't think she ever fought with a sword or killed anyone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, the HBO show seems to have her as a hardened killer right from the beginning. Her first bloodbath is when she kills three northeners who want her to hand over Jaime, and she does it quite gruesomely... Since then she has been in lots of fights, every one seeing her kill numerous opponents. Her kill count in the show is WAY higher than in the books, and I think rings a bit false.

What military experience has she ever seen prior to the books? Granted, we know very little about what goes on in Tarth. It's possible that she might have served with her father's soldiers, potentially at sea. I imagine pirates from the Stepstones might be a concern on Tarth. So it's possible, but I don't think likely that she had seen combat before the books.

Very interesting that the one character who strives to be a Knight, and would be very good at it, actually has had no military experience, never been in battle, and the two occasions when she has killed have been really unpleasant, traumatic experiences for her.

Loras Tyrell

Another interesting one. He is known as one of the finest lances in the Seven Kingdoms, a famous young knight... But as far as I know has never been in battle prior to the books. He is too young to have fought in any of the recent wars in Westeros. His reputation comes entirely from his success at tournaments. His first taste of actual war is when he marches with Renly. So, I'm guessing the first men he kills are the members of Renly's kingsguard in his rage? Very interesting. And his first real battle experience is the Blackwater... Ok, that's a pretty impressive first battle. He later goes to retake Dragonstone and apparently is very badly injured, his good looks maybe ruined by hideous burns.... So like Brienne he grew up wanting to be a knight, but without the inconvenience of being a woman he managed to achieve fame and glory at a young age before ever seeing any real war. When war does come, he fights well and lives up to his fame, but again there's not much glory in it.... (killing his Kingsguard brothers and later getting badly burnt). I actually really dislike Loras, and for that reason think he's a great character. I liked how Jaime took him down a peg or two.

Garlan Tyrell

Whilst on the subject of Tyrell brothers, what about Garlan? He is less interested in fame than his younger brother, and doesn't compete in tournaments. He is apparently the better sword. Seems like he will make a much better soldier and leader, and also comes across as a seriously nice guy. I don't know exactly how old he is supposed to be, but I am guessing too young to have fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion? Maybe not though. If so, what military experience does he have? I'm sure he can handle himself, but has he ever killed before? Last we hear of him, he is off to fight the Ironborn. I think he'll do well though, seems like he is prepared for it.

Victarion Greyjoy

Victarion is a seasoned killer, and has obviously fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion. Did he see any combat in Robert's Rebellion? I'm sure he has done lots of killing and reaving overseas... But considering for most of his life the Iron Islands have been on peace terms with the rest of Westeros, and presumably they have not been raiding the coasts, I do wonder where he got all his killing experience from. That's one thing that doesn't quite sit right to me about the Ironborn in the books - for generations they have not been raiding the Westeros coasts, yet they come across as if that's what they've done all their lives. I wonder what they spend their time doing during peace time? I guess the answer is they find their fun beyond Westeros....

Asha Greyjoy

Asha is a bit of a problem character for me. She seems to be an experienced killer, but I'm not sure where all her experience comes from. Again, the answer could be adventuring, reaving and raiding beyond Westeros.

She is responsible for the one silly combat scene. When she is fighting the mountain clansmen on her way out of Deepwood Motte, she kills a lot of men. And apparently the fighting goes on for hours. I found that one a little hard to believe. Oh well.

Ramsey Bolton

Ramsey has undoubtedly killed / murdered a lot of people. But how much actual combat has he seen, as opposed to hunting down defenceless peasants? I don't think he has any military experience, and I don't think he has ever been in battle prior to the books. The HBO show makes him out to be a warrior, a soldier, a leader, a general... But we musn't forget, in the books he is just a psychopath! A cruel killer who has the good fortune to be the bastard of a notable Lord. If it wasn't for that, he would probably have ended up on the same level as the Mountain's Men. Due to who his father is, he has a certain amount of power, and men to follow him. But he is no soldier, and I'd like to think not much of a swordsman.

Edmure Tully

I'll mention Edmure briefly as we don't know anything about his military career. He doesn't come across as much of a warrior or killer. During the books he leads the Tully forces. I guess he is old enough to have fought in Robert's Rebellion, but we know nothing of what he got up to. Perhaps he is a fairly experienced soldier, just not particularly noteworthy? Has he ever killed a man?

Sandor Clegane

The Hound is an interesting one too. We know he is a seasoned killer. But who has he spent his life killing??? I guess a lot of it could be down to violent brawls and scraps... But beyond his childhood face-burning incident, we know nothing about his life pre-books. Did he fight on Pyke during the Greyjoy Rebellion? Was he part of the Lannister army that sacked King's Landing? Also, when exactly did he become part of Robert's royal retinue, and when was he appointed Joffrey's sworn shield? I'd love to know more!

 

Anyway, it's an interesting subject to me. I might think of more characters worth looking at.

[WSmith84]

I believe that Robb actually killed his first man before the Wot5K. It was when wildlings (including Osha) took Bran hostage. I think Robb killed one of them there. Theon definitely made his first kill there (with an arrow).

[Ser Something]

20 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I believe that Robb actually killed his first man before the Wot5K. It was when wildlings (including Osha) took Bran hostage. I think Robb killed one of them there. Theon definitely made his first kill there (with an arrow).

Ah very good, well remembered! Theon definitely killed one with an arrow, I can't myself remember if Robb killed anyone or not, but I'll take your word for it.

[Universal Sword Donor]

20 minutes ago, Ser Something said:

Ah very good, well remembered! Theon definitely killed one with an arrow, I can't myself remember if Robb killed anyone or not, but I'll take your word for it.

He did. I just re-read the scene. 

“Robb shouted, “Winterfell!” and kicked his horse. The gelding plunged down the bank as the ragged men closed. A man with an axe rushed in, shouting and heedless. Robb’s sword caught him full in the face with a sickening crunch and a spray of bright blood. ”

He then proceeds to fight Osha

[Lord Wraith]

I find the lack of Bryden "Blackfish" Tully and Oberyn "Red Viper" Martell in this thread disturbing.

[GallowsKnight]

36 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I find the lack of Bryden "Blackfish" Tully and Oberyn "Red Viper" Martell in this thread disturbing.

Or Stannis Baratheon

When did he kill his first man?

Did he follow Robert to Summerhall and kill one there? (Robert returned to Storm's End post Summerhall, so he might have accompanied him)

Or was it in the Siege of Storm's End (Donal Noye lost an arm, so there must have been some conflict)

Was there any fighting in taking Dragonstone?

Or did he do it at Fair Isle or Great Wyk?

[Boarsbane]

You forgot the man who fought in more wars than any of them, Lord Tywin. Five different conflicts he saw action in, some more than other but none the less five. We know he fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings where he got himself knighted and "seasoned" himself. Not long after he put down two powerful vassals, one of which was lead by a famed warrior and leader. Didn't do much during Robert's Rebellion but beating Ned to KL and securing the city so quickly is pretty impressive. Greyjoy rebellion we know he was there but no clue what he did, as Warden of the West though it was probably somewhat significant. And of course the War of the Five Kings. He is no Jaime to lead from the front but in tWot9PK at least he would of probably been doing some fighting and same for the Reyne Tarbeck Rebellion, I think he lead a countercharge against the Red Lion that broke the Reynes army. 

[PrinceHenryris]

Sandor claims he got his first kill at 12.  If we follow the wiki, that puts him in Robert's Rebellion.  Whether or not he had left his brother to serve the Lannisters before the Greyjoy Rebellion, he probably saw action there as well.

As Joffrey's (Cersei's) sworn shield, he had at least one opportunity for wet work on their behalf (Mycah) and knowing Cersei he had probably had many before that.

[PrinceHenryris]

As far as we're told, Obery's first kill was Edgar Yronwood at age sixteen.  

I'm sure Oberyn saw his share of battles in the Disputed Lands.

 

[Nyrhex]

23 minutes ago, PrinceHenryris said:

As far as we're told, Obery's first kill was Edgar Yronwood at age sixteen.  

I'm sure Oberyn saw his share of battles in the Disputed Lands.

 

Oberyn is overhyped. He killed Yronwood with poisen, the battle was until first blood due to Oberyn's youth, and both took cuts. If you look at Oberyn's life, he only had a limited amount of time to actually spend as a sellsword in the Disputed Lands, the overwhelming amount of time he was living the life of a rich playboy, and his "exile" from Dorne was laughably short. I daresay that Quentyn saw more fighting in his short stint with the Windblown than Oberyn ever saw.

[Blackfish Tully]

9 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

As far as we're told, Obery's first kill was Edgar Yronwood at age sixteen.  

I'm sure Oberyn saw his share of battles in the Disputed Lands.

 

We do not know if Oberyn's first kill was Lord Yronwood .  Lord Yronwood took a wound in the fight and it could have been simply that the wound got infected and he died , not an unusual occurrence in that time period. 

[Valyrian Spoon]

Randyll Tarly is also missing from OP's list. He inflicted the only defeat on Robert during the rebellion, commanded the centre at the blackwater and has smashed a northern force at Duskendale. A few characters have mentioned he is a very capable commander.

 

[AvengerofWinterfell]

On 7/2/2016 at 0:55 AM, Lord Wraith said:

I find the lack of Bryden "Blackfish" Tully and Oberyn "Red Viper" Martell in this thread disturbing.

not to mention Barristan Selmy who has fought in every major Westeros Conflict since the Ninepenny Kings.  He fought there, the Defiance at Duskendale, against the Kingswood Brotherhood, Roberts Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion.  I dont remember much about Oberyn's military career though he seemed a more than competent fighter.  Bryden fought in the Ninepenny and then went to the Vale where he presumably fought the Mountain clans on occasion.  Other than than his next conflict was the War of 5 Kings.

Victarion likely didnt fight in Roberts Rebellion as the Iron Islands more or less stayed out of it.  He would have fought in the Greyjoy rebellion though.

Edmure didnt fight in Roberts Rebellion that I recall, he was likely too young.  He was younger than Petyr Baelish by 1-6 when Petyr challenged Brandon Stark and Petyr was only 15 at the time.