Who would Tywin name his heir?

[Alexander Targaryen]

While Lord Tywin Lannister would definitely have preferred Jaime to inherit his place as Lord of Casterly Rock, this was clearly not a legal option as Jaime remained sworn to the Kingsguard. With this in mind, who do you think Tywin would have named his heir, if given the time to write a will and testament before his death?

His dwarf son Tyrion, who is legally next in line but who he clearly loathes? His daughter Cersei who as a woman is not legally entitled to inheritance? His brother Kevan, who is comparably unambitious and submissive? Or perhaps someone else of the Lannister bloodline who Tywin may regard as more capable?

[Lion of the West]

5 minutes ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

While Lord Tywin Lannister would definitely have preferred Jaime to inherit his place as Lord of Casterly Rock, this was clearly not a legal option as Jaime remained sworn to the Kingsguard. With this in mind, who do you think Tywin would have named his heir, if given the time to write a will and testament before his death?

His dwarf son Tyrion, who is legally next in line but who he clearly loathes? His daughter Cersei who as a woman is not legally entitled to inheritance? His brother Kevan, who is comparably unambitious and submissive? Or perhaps someone else of the Lannister bloodline who Tywin may regard as more capable?

Women are very much able to inherit in Westeros regardless of what bigotry their fathers may have. Legally the heirs would be in order Tyrion, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and then Kevan and his children.

If there really was no way to get Jaime off the Kingsguard and there was a way to Tywin to screw over laws and customs Viserys-style, then I would think in my mind that he would name Kevan his heir and have an understanding with Kevan that Kevan will name some Lannister youth showing promise to succeed him. In such a case Kevan will act as a placeholder while waiting for the "real" heir to come into age and be ready to take over, rather than leave it to someone who is unready, or unwanted by Tywin.

[Knight of Onions]

Joffrey set a precedent when he dismissed Barristan from the Kingsguard for his old age. Tommen could dismiss Jaime from the Kingsguard for his missing hand, allowing him to inherit Casterly Rock.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

51 minutes ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

His daughter Cersei who as a woman is not legally entitled to inheritance?

I will never understand why people believe that women cannot inherit. Anyway, Tommen.

[marsyao]

1 hour ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

While Lord Tywin Lannister would definitely have preferred Jaime to inherit his place as Lord of Casterly Rock, this was clearly not a legal option as Jaime remained sworn to the Kingsguard. With this in mind, who do you think Tywin would have named his heir, if given the time to write a will and testament before his death?

His dwarf son Tyrion, who is legally next in line but who he clearly loathes? His daughter Cersei who as a woman is not legally entitled to inheritance? His brother Kevan, who is comparably unambitious and submissive? Or perhaps someone else of the Lannister bloodline who Tywin may regard as more capable?

By law and custom, it would be Tyrion, even mighty Tywin could not change that, the fact he "loathes" Tyrion is not a reason good enough to deny Tyrion's birthright, I guess he would do his best to have Jaime be dismissed from Kingsguard.

P.S in the westero, woman has the right for her father's land and title, just she would be behind her brother in the order of inheritance, even that brother is younger than her. But in this case, Tywin saw Cersei as a fool, I do not believe a second he would trust Casterly Rock to her

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Legally the heirs would be in order Tyrion, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and then Kevan and his children

This is, of course, true. However, it brings up an odd question for me about succession and I wonder what people think.

 

Ok, let's say I am Tywin. I can't get Jamie out of the KG. Next. Tyrion. I hate him. Next. Cersei. She thinks she is smarter than she is. Next Joffery. Dead. Whatever...as Lord of Casterly Rock, can I just make my wishes known that my brother Kevan will take the lordship. That is to say, can I willingly supersede the succession rights by publicly stating who my successor will be?

[Buried Treasure]

Women can inherit with a great deal more ease than a lord can pick his heir. There is not a choice about who succeeds, there is instead an order of succession, and the best a lord can do is manipulate that order. Kings have the most freedom to manipulate who will succeed them, but even then they are rarely making free choices (note that Robert's will was for the purpose of naming Ned the Regent - he thought Joff was his heir without need of a will, and once Robb had disbarred Sansa he had free choice only because he thought all the other direct heirs dead). A Lord cannot so easily play around with their heirs because they will not always be sure that the King will not overrule them in favour of the displaced 'true' heir.

 

Robert was no fan of Tywin's, so there was little chance that Robert would go along with any maneuvering so that  Tywin's preferred choice would rule Casterly Rock after him. That could well explain why Tywin waited til Joff was king to make any efforts in that direction. Tyrion was the heir, but Joff would be willing enough to go along with any pretext to prevent him inheriting, and although being Lord Protector in the north would  not be a legal bar to inheriting it would be enough for a biased king to not let him rule both and force him to renounce his claim.

 

Likewise the marriage for Cersei; women don't have to be disinherited - it is easy enough to disempower them. Perhaps Tywin intended that she live with her new husband and that when she became Lady of Casterly Rock that would continue so that she would not have the opportunity to rule. That would leave loyal. reliable Kevan as regent and lord protector of the Rock whiltst he raised the next heir, Tommen.

 

[marsyao]

19 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

This is, of course, true. However, it brings up an odd question for me about succession and I wonder what people think.

 

Ok, let's say I am Tywin. I can't get Jamie out of the KG. Next. Tyrion. I hate him. Next. Cersei. She thinks she is smarter than she is. Next Joffery. Dead. Whatever...as Lord of Casterly Rock, can I just make my wishes known that my brother Kevan will take the lordship. That is to say, can I willingly supersede the succession rights by publicly stating who my successor will be?

The point is there is not very much Tywin could do to "pick" his heir, by the law and custom, by the time of his death, his heir is Tyrion, if Tywin choose to ignor the law and custom, that would means civil war in the westland, and merely in their own interest not having a dangerous precedent to be set here, majority of the noble houses in westland would side with Tyrion, it is not a move someone like Tywin would make. His choice, of course, would have Jaime dismissed from Kingsguard, since Joffery has already set a precedence, Tommen certainly would do his bid, and Cersei, of course, would not oppose it

[YOVMO]

6 minutes ago, marsyao said:

The point is there is not very much Tywin could do to "pick" his heir, by the law and custom, by the time of his death, his heir is Tyrion, if Tywin choose to ignor the law and custom, that would means civil war in the westland, and merely in their own interest not having a dangerous precedent to be set here, majority of the noble houses in westland would side with Tyrion, it is not a move someone like Tywin would make. His choice, of course, would have Jaime dismissed from Kingsguard, since Joffery has already set a precedence, Tommen certainly would do his bid, and Cersei, of course, would not oppose it

no doubt. I just wonder in general with succession of houses. If Tywin dies suddenly of course you look to the next person that the law dictates as the successor. But what about if tywin was getting on in age and wanted to specifically name someone like kevan, in public, proclaim him the rightful heir. Is that legal under westerosi law?

[marsyao]

6 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

no doubt. I just wonder in general with succession of houses. If Tywin dies suddenly of course you look to the next person that the law dictates as the successor. But what about if tywin was getting on in age and wanted to specifically name someone like kevan, in public, proclaim him the rightful heir. Is that legal under westerosi law?

He can not do that, he can not deny Tyrion's birthright without a extremely good excuse, unless he wanted a civil war after his death. Another example is Sam, his father despised him, but still he had to force Sam to join night's watch, before he could name Sam's brother Dickon to be the heir of Horn Hill, if Randyll could do it just by his will, why did he bother sending Sam to the Wall ?

[YOVMO]

12 minutes ago, marsyao said:

He can not do that, he can not deny Tyrion's birthright without a extremely good excuse, unless he wanted a civil war after his death. Another example is Sam, his father despised him, but still he had to force Sam to join night's watch, before he could name Sam's brother Dickon to be the heir of Horn Hill, if Randyll could do it just by his will, why did he bother sending Sam to the Wall ?

good example with sam. You are right. It isn't about deciding to whom he wants the lordship to go to, to give it to someone else without consideration of the legal heir would be tantamount to theft and probably bring about a situation not dissimilar to the blackfyre rebellion.

 

The sam example was perfect way to answer the question. Thanks!

[MinotaurWarrior]

Tywin was well above the law, so he would have only been concerned with the heir's ability to rule, his subjects willingness to be ruled by the heir, and Tywin's own preferences. The Tarly's are in an entirely different situation - Randyll is under the power of House Tyrell, who (with their scholarly cripple heir) have every reason to support Samwell's claim and oppose disinheritance on the basis of 'unmanliness'. The Lords of the Westerlands clearly don't have any well-established rule of law or tradition of honor, else they wouldn't have all continually cheated and Tytos. And who would rise up to take Tyrion's claim? Nobody loves a dwarf, and everyone knows Tyrion is too clever to be a pawn.

Had Tywin died before Jeoff, Tommen would have been given the Rock, with Kevan as his Castellan and Regent. If Tywin had written a will after Jeoff's death, it almost certainly would have just named Kevan as his heir. If anyone tried to defend Tyrion's claim, he would have sent singers, and if those failed, he would have made a new song, copying his brother like always.

It's only with Kevan dead that the law starts to matter at all, because nobody has the clarity of command to hold it by might. Assuming Tommen is disinherited by virtue of being king (per the precedent of Robert, who lost Storms End when he sat the Iron Throne), the order of inheritance should be Tyrion, Cersei, Myrcella, Lancel, Martyn, Janei, and then the Frey's. If Tywin is planning on naming anyone beyond Kevan in his will, he's got to know that the further down the list he goes, the more trouble he's making for himself. So it becomes a balancing act - how terrible would this person be as ruler, and how terrible their enemies would be.

There's no way in my mind that Tywin names Cersei as heir after Kevan. She's too great of an embarrassment, has caused too much trouble already, and has proven too incompetent. And, fortunately, nobody else likes her either. The Tyrells refused to marry into her claim once already. So, she's no risk to the realm. Myrcella is a little girl, and rumored to be the product of incest. However, Tywin would likely know that she'd have dornish backing. It's hard to tell if that'd be a war worth provoking. After her is Lancel, an experienced but undistinguished knight, who is known to the men of the westerlands and the nobility at large. Martyn is the same as Lancel, except he hasn't fucked Cersei (+) and is a younger brother (--). Janei is an infant. After that are the Frey's, who built their lordship when their built their bridge, within recorded memory, a sort of new wealth that Tywin despises.

So, I think the order would have been either Kevan, Myrcella, Lancel, Martyn, or Kevan Lancel Martyn Myrcella.

[Oakhearts head]

I'm sure Daven Lannister was named Lord of Castlerly Rock and Warden of the West in Feast. Or was he only Castellan?

Would Genna Lannister have any claim?

[Shireen Purratheon]

29 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said:

I'm sure Daven Lannister was named Lord of Castlerly Rock and Warden of the West in Feast. Or was he only Castellan?

Would Genna Lannister have any claim?

Daven was named Warden of the West, Damion Lannister (whose father was half brother to Daven's father) was named castellan. Their fathers were first cousins to Tywin. Daven's father was Ser Stafford who died in Robb's campaign, and was a full brother to Joanna.

Cersei was legally named Lady of the Rock after Tywin's death.

All three titles belong to different people.

However, it seems nobody has taken up the (more than likely ceremonial) title Shield of Lannisport yet.

[LordPathera]

7 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I will never understand why people believe that women cannot inherit. Anyway, Tommen.

Sallic Law my friend, some people don't understand that Sallic Law was only strictly followed by medieval France. Though in all fairness, male heirs were culturally and historically preferred over female heirs in most cultures in medieval times as a De Facto rule rather than a De Jure one. This didn't prevent females from outright inheriting, but this mostly happened when there was no closely related male suitor to be found.

At least that's how I understand it. Feel free to fill in any blanks that I missed.

[House Beaudreau]

 

One thing we know about succession in Westeros is that it can be very messy. Tywin can essentially name anyone as his heir. I think its really funny when people always bring up "Law and Customs" and "By Rights" it should pass to this person blah blah blah. Some examples of people breaking the "Rightful" succession rights are 

1. Robert naming Ned as the kingdom's regent until Joffery come of age. This was a king's Decree and no one really cares about it once joffery sits the throne and Cersi ascends to regency.

2. Rob Stark's writes a will. He does this, so that the "rightful" heir Sansa can't inherit Winterfell in the event of Robs death. the Lannisters probably wouldn't put any value on this will because they really want Sansa and her children to inheirt the North.  

3. The Various bastards being legitimized. Wars were fought over these bastards because some people backed them and some didn't acknowledge them. 

Then there is all the people that break vows or break others vows for them and no one seems to raise much of a fuss. Cersi kicks Barristan Semly out of the Kings Guard or Jamie Kills his King, You would think that someone would have a problem with this especially other kings guard but no one really says anything except Barristan Selmy. 

This goes into one of the main point of the Novels. Feudalism/ Monarachy/ devine rule/ Royalty/ Blood lines are stupid and only have power if people believe in them. 

Why do you think the Wildlings and Mance Ryder are such romantic characters because they are somewhat enlightened in the fact that they only follow leaders they believe in, Bloodlines a meaningless and people south of the wall know nothing. 

The Thenns are really the only Wildlings that are following Westeros customs of divine rule and Bloodline inheritance and Everyone can pretty much agree that "WE FUCKING HATE THENNS"  

[House Beaudreau]

Tyrek Lannister is who Tywin wants to name as heir why he really wants him back. 

[wiredup]

odd question. who would Tywin want? Jamie. only Jamie. I think it's very clear that Jamie is the only person in the world he wanted to rule Casterly Rock. so do you mean "after Jamie's refusal"?

because to that, we know his wants are no longer relevant. Now it's a fight. pure and simple. And Hugor Hill will be aiming to rule the rock if I had my guess. 

[Alexander Targaryen]

This brings up another interesting point I've often considered; why is Tywin still unmarried? His wife Joanna died in 273 AC when Tywin was only 31 - younger than Jaime and Cersei are today. Even if he truly loved Joanna and mourned her death for years, someone like Tywin should have been eager to find a new wife from a powerful noble House to gain them as allies. There were certainly options available, such as Lyanna Stark (not betrothed to Robert Baratheon before 281 AC, then aged 14-15), Lysa Arryn (not married to Jon Arryn until 282-283 AC, then aged 14-17), Lord Mace Tyrell's sisters Janna or Mina who may have been unmarried at this point, and the list goes on. Why would someone whose power and influence rivals that of the King himself not advance his position further by marrying an influential woman?

[dariopatke]

Myrcella or Cersei, but probably Myrcella.

I can see him briging Myrcella and Trystane from Dorne (Trystane was third in succession so Lord of CR is as high as he can get) to CR to get used to rule and of course bring her from potential danger place. If he died before she came of age he can make Kevan as her regent (clearly the most capable man to rule after Tywin himself).