Tyrion + Sansa potentially Reunite

[Morgana Lannister]

On 7/3/2016 at 11:32 PM, Woman of War said:

I do not disregard what Sansa feels. Nor do I ignore what Tyrion feels. Or Jon. Actually the human soul in conflict with itself is the stuff Martin's books are made of. I predict conflict, not so difficult. And Sansa will want what Martin wants her to want and do what the author wants her to do. She is the author's  fictional creation, just like Tyrion.

The complexity of "wanting" and not wanting something in Martin's world is not easy and straightforward, be it a king- or queendom or relationships. Yes, it might easily be that Tyrion and Sansa end up together even if they both had other loves, hopes and ideas originally.  Counts just as much for any other possible pairing that might exist in the end. Two more books and at least fifteen episodes to come yet, just wait and see. 

...... maybe Sansa and Tyrion will both be dead in the end.

exactly my thoughts

[Morgana Lannister]

On 7/4/2016 at 2:25 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I think you are reaching a bit here and trying to twist words.

If Tyrion and Sansa met up again, books and show, Tyrion probably would be pissed that she took off after the poisoning of Joffery and left Tyrion and Tyrion alone to take the heat for the regicide. We, the readers and viewers, know the true story. So yes, Tyrion gets back to Westeros (as we see him doing on the show) and Sansa is outed- the Vale in the books, Winterfell the show- and he agrees or encourages a campaign there with his eye on his prize. Whores go the the Vale (Winterfell show).

And what does Sansa have to confess? Her love of lemon cakes and needing to size up a dress number? No. Sansa is a virginal , religious teenager who holds her virtue close to her heart. Tv Sansa has nothing to confess... but she has sorta done that with Jon with the whole "sorry I hid the Vale army from you', and Rickon and all. That "cat" is out of the bag--- get it? Cat!

No, Martin only writes what the characters tell him. His stories are without a doubt character driven- NOT plot driven. He says that and any other writer and reader can see that. It is why his '93 outline is so different. GRRM has made that statement many times.

Adding: The show is plot driven. Cogman even describes it here

"Character X" starts at "blank" and we want him or her to end up at "blank."

lol I grant you that Tyrion knows she made him look terrible by escaping KL at that very fatefull moment (as per books) however, he did say he believed she couldn't have acted alone... and he is bright enough to figure out who did it... He did also say something on the lines of "whoever has done this (Joffrey's murder) and it couldn't be Cersei, wants my head to roll"  Regardless of romantic ending or otherwise, they will meet and compare notes... and maybe that is the end of Sansa/Tyrion interaction but that at least I would bet a large amount of money on it happening! (them taking down LF, maybe not his life, but his position, his power...)  I think these two would be subtle in the nastiest possible way...death is too sweet...they will deprive him of everything he fought for (LF) probably even going morally too far

lol okay out of topic but thinking about what is the worse thing that could be done to Petyr Baelish, lol, Stoneheart is semi-alive in the books; let him find her, meet her, want her still???  Too dark even for GoT lol but what a come down it would be!!!

Now, as for character driven as opposed to plot driven, I have to politely disagree.  Okay I have dabbled into writing myself (that is not a valid argument or excuse but just saying) and yes, one loves ones' characters but no, this is plot driven...Otherwise Jon would still be with Ygritte, say...we all love the dragons and my prediction is that they will die at the end of the battle...  Sorry I cannot put it more coherently but the sweet and sour end George has been aiming at will be just that!  Maybe the likes of my complaining re Sansa/Tyrion, or the Sandor/Sansa doing the same or both... he is going to crash us well and good but there will be light... All is moot because I know how I would end it... but at the end of the day it is not my ending that matters but his...

 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

lol I grant you that Tyrion knows she made him look terrible by escaping KL at that very fatefull moment (as per books) however, he did say he believed she couldn't have acted alone... and he is bright enough to figure out who did it... He did also say something on the lines of "whoever has done this (Joffrey's murder) and it couldn't be Cersei, wants my head to roll"  Regardless of romantic ending or otherwise, they will meet and compare notes... and maybe that is the end of Sansa/Tyrion interaction but that at least I would bet a large amount of money on it happening! (them taking down LF, maybe not his life, but his position, his power...)  I think these two would be subtle in the nastiest possible way...death is too sweet...they will deprive him of everything he fought for (LF) probably even going morally too far

lol okay out of topic but thinking about what is the worse thing that could be done to Petyr Baelish, lol, Stoneheart is semi-alive in the books; let him find her, meet her, want her still???  Too dark even for GoT lol but what a come down it would be!!!

Now, as for character driven as opposed to plot driven, I have to politely disagree.  Okay I have dabbled into writing myself (that is not a valid argument or excuse but just saying) and yes, one loves ones' characters but no, this is plot driven...Otherwise Jon would still be with Ygritte, say...we all love the dragons and my prediction is that they will die at the end of the battle...  Sorry I cannot put it more coherently but the sweet and sour end George has been aiming at will be just that!  Maybe the likes of my complaining re Sansa/Tyrion, or the Sandor/Sansa doing the same or both... he is going to crash us well and good but there will be light... All is moot because I know how I would end it... but at the end of the day it is not my ending that matters but his...

 

Thanks for the reply. I only have a minute (I'm on break at work) and just want to touch a few points here.

IF Sansa and Tyrion were to come face to face, then it would be unpleasant. It would not be a re-union, as the OP asks, because there was barely a union to begin with. I'm sure, as you somewhat mentioned, that it would be awkward at best. And then they would go their separate ways.

And, yes, ASOIAF boos are, indeed, in fact, character driven. GRRM has said so and he used his proof is one of the reasons why the outline is so different from today's books. The characters changed beyond what he had planned for them. The characters and their decisions dictated the story.

GoT the tv show, is plot driven. My quote by Cogman above explains that. Cogman says, basically, get X to X because that is where they want them. That is the definition of plot driven. Character development and consistency takes a back seat.

Here is the definition of character driven stories:

This is a more internal story, where we spend time reflecting with the characters and discover who they are as people. The nature of the characters and the decisions they make shape the plot and the final outcome of the story.

Character-driven plots are usually considered ‘literary fiction’ because their structures (especially their endings) are unpredictable and their characters are more in-depth. These books can seem more contemporary than plot-driven novels because they're not following a tried-and-tested traditional story structure.

 

And with Jon and Ygritte. Jon is very often most paralleled with Dany and her adventures. Each are given similar circumstances and it is how each character reacts and decides what to do next that develops the character and their arc. Both of them are being tested with a peach. And Dany and Jon have 100 more parallels beyond just love.

Ygritte was for duty, Val is for love.

Drogo was for duty, ? (Daario) is for love.

Tyrion was for duty, ? (Sandor) is for love.

[Masha]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Thanks for the reply. I only have a minute (I'm on break at work) and just want to touch a few points here.

IF Sansa and Tyrion were to come face to face, then it would be unpleasant. It would not be a re-union, as the OP asks, because there was barely a union to begin with. I'm sure, as you somewhat mentioned, that it would be awkward at best. And then they would go their separate ways.

And, yes, ASOIAF boos are, indeed, in fact, character driven. GRRM has said so and he used his proof is one of the reasons why the outline is so different from today's books. The characters changed beyond what he had planned for them. The characters and their decisions dictated the story.

GoT the tv show, is plot driven. My quote by Cogman above explains that. Cogman says, basically, get X to X because that is where they want them. That is the definition of plot driven. Character development and consistency takes a back seat.

Here is the definition of character driven stories:

This is a more internal story, where we spend time reflecting with the characters and discover who they are as people. The nature of the characters and the decisions they make shape the plot and the final outcome of the story.

Character-driven plots are usually considered ‘literary fiction’ because their structures (especially their endings) are unpredictable and their characters are more in-depth. These books can seem more contemporary than plot-driven novels because they're not following a tried-and-tested traditional story structure.

 

And with Jon and Ygritte. Jon is very often most paralleled with Dany and her adventures. Each are given similar circumstances and it is how each character reacts and decides what to do next that develops the character and their arc. Both of them are being tested with a peach. And Dany and Jon have 100 more parallels beyond just love.

Ygritte was for duty, Val is for love.

Drogo was for duty, ? (Daario) is for love.

Tyrion was for duty, ? (Sandor) is for love.

Sorry just no, I just don't get with the whole Sansa x Sandor thing.  

[Morgana Lannister]

On 7/4/2016 at 2:25 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I think you are reaching a bit here and trying to twist words.

If Tyrion and Sansa met up again, books and show, Tyrion probably would be pissed that she took off after the poisoning of Joffery and left Tyrion and Tyrion alone to take the heat for the regicide. We, the readers and viewers, know the true story. So yes, Tyrion gets back to Westeros (as we see him doing on the show) and Sansa is outed- the Vale in the books, Winterfell the show- and he agrees or encourages a campaign there with his eye on his prize. Whores go the the Vale (Winterfell show).

And what does Sansa have to confess? Her love of lemon cakes and needing to size up a dress number? No. Sansa is a virginal , religious teenager who holds her virtue close to her heart. Tv Sansa has nothing to confess... but she has sorta done that with Jon with the whole "sorry I hid the Vale army from you', and Rickon and all. That "cat" is out of the bag--- get it? Cat!

No, Martin only writes what the characters tell him. His stories are without a doubt character driven- NOT plot driven. He says that and any other writer and reader can see that. It is why his '93 outline is so different. GRRM has made that statement many times.

Adding: The show is plot driven. Cogman even describes it here

"Character X" starts at "blank" and we want him or her to end up at "blank."

lol I grant you that Tyrion knows she made him look terrible by escaping KL at that very faithfully moment (as per books) however, he did say he believed she couldn't have acted alone... and he is bright enough to figure out who did it... He did also say something on the lines of "whoever has done this (Joffrey's murder) and it couldn't be Cersei, wants my head to roll"  Regardless of romantic ending, they will meet and compare notes... and maybe that is the end of Sansa/Tyrion interaction but that at least I would bet a large amount will happen!

Okay, we back different horses it's all! when it is all done and dusted... we will see....

[The Fattest Leech]

30 minutes ago, Masha said:

Sorry just no, I just don't get with the whole Sansa x Sandor thing.  

Not saying it will, hence the ?, I was trying to explain the comparisons. 

Many do believe in Sansa/Sandor. I never gave it too much thought until I started on these forums and I came to realize it could be a possibility.  

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, Masha said:

Sorry just no, I just don't get with the whole Sansa x Sandor thing.  

I actually used to be the same way.  Actually used to root for Tyrion Sansa.  But I came to realize I was only looking at what I wanted for Tyrion (and thinking it would be good for Sansa, without really focusing on what she actualy wants).  That realization, along with the totality of the evidence with Sandor, lead me to not only accept it as a possibility, but that it is a very, very strong probability (for me, only outclassed by R+L=J).  

[Morgana Lannister]

10 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I actually used to be the same way.  Actually used to root for Tyrion Sansa.  But I came to realize I was only looking at what I wanted for Tyrion (and thinking it would be good for Sansa, without really focusing on what she actualy wants).  That realization, along with the totality of the evidence with Sandor, lead me to not only accept it as a possibility, but that it is a very, very strong probability (for me, only outclassed by R+L=J).  

at the end of the day, we do not know... lol we can cheer for one or the other but if well written... it would be feasible.. our preferences will remain just that

[TepidHands]

We know that GRRM worships Cocteau (he named his theater after him, after all) and was a writer for the TV version of BatB. There are a few beauty/beast relationships (San/San and J/B) in the source material, very finely drawn and emotionally and sexually charged.

I just fear the HBO crew might misunderstand. They don't exactly do subtleties well. I'd  worry that they might use an actual beast, except they seem to dislike working with animals.

[JonSnow4President]

Just now, Morgana Lannister said:

at the end of the day, we do not know... lol we can cheer for one or the other but if well written... it would be feasible.. our preferences will remain just that

We don't know what will come.  But we know what is written now.  And given that every instance of foreshadowing and character thoughts point to it, one is a screaming beacon, while one is a personal preference based on head canon.  

[Le Cygne]

Her torments would soon be ended, one way or another...

The long nightmare of Kings Landing was behind her, and her mockery of a marriage as well...

In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice... She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane...

Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed, his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped...

As the boy's lips touched her own, she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

[Morgana Lannister]

1 minute ago, JonSnow4President said:

We don't know what will come.  But we know what is written now.  And given that every instance of foreshadowing and character thoughts point to it, one is a screaming beacon, while one is a personal preference based on head canon.  

I agree to disagree here; yes there is foreshadowing for Sandor but also for Tyrion but honestly last time I defended him here I wanted to send my attorney's bill to Casterly Rock, so I am going to leave this as that; we don't know...we all have favourites... hopefully no hard feelings,,,

[Le Cygne]

10 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

We know that GRRM worships Cocteau (he named his theater after him, after all) and was a writer for the TV version of BatB. There are a few beauty/beast relationships (San/San and J/B) in the source material, very finely drawn and emotionally and sexually charged.

I just fear the HBO crew might misunderstand. They don't exactly do subtleties well. I'd  worry that they might use an actual beast, except they seem to dislike working with animals.

Both SanSan and J/B are lovely, and there are many similarities. I think there will be some wonderful reflection, one and the other, in the books, too. 

Yes, no animals.  I found the telegraphing in Sandor's scenes encouragng, though. Hoping for something encouraging in the Jaime story, maybe finally a break.

[TepidHands]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Both SanSan and J/B are lovely, and there are many similarities. I think there will be some wonderful reflection, one and the other, in the books, too. 

Yes, no animals.  I found the telegraphing in Sandor's scenes encouragng, though. Hoping for something encouraging in the Jaime story, maybe finally a break.

Jaime and Brienne's  little waves and glances at Riverrun... so junior high (in a good way; they simply don't know how to act). I hated the Bronn coarse commentary there. 

I know I'm talking about my personal 'ship . Instead they'll probably meet in combat, and not their foreplay kind, if they ever meet again. It doesn't seem particularly a priority for this show.

[sweetsunray]

30 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree to disagree here; yes there is foreshadowing for Sandor but also for Tyrion but honestly last time I defended him here I wanted to send my attorney's bill to Casterly Rock, so I am going to leave this as that; we don't know...we all have favourites... hopefully no hard feelings,,,

What foreshadowing for Tyrion? There is no foreshadowing whatsoever for Tyrion to be Sansa's husband by the end of the books. You keep saying that, but I haven't seen any real arguments made about Tyrion being foreshadowed as Sansa's endgame marriage or love interest. George himself has said that you can figure out the big plotlines in aGoT. Sansa doesn't even think about Tyrion then. Instead we have a tourney where Sansa is over the moon by a rose given to her by the Knight of Flowers, but she hopes Sandor wins the tourney anyway. And Sansa thinking that Tyrion was kind to her is not foreshadowing. 

BTW, I'm like JS4P in that until perhaps last fall I didn't give much thought on Sandor, wasn't even sure he'd return from the QI. Never gave Tyrion mcuh of a chance though. I wasn't all that caught up in Sansa's chapters, not analytically and not with regards to foreshadowing. Once you do start to analyse Sansa's chapters it becomes stark clear who's her main man. Sandor is present in each and every chapter of Sansa somehow, whether she's Alayne or not, from the very beginning of Sansa's first chapter.

[The Fattest Leech]

I, too, am with @JonSnow4President And @sweetsunray. 

It was after the last few seasons and after coming to these threads, was I convinced there would never be a future plot for Tyrion and Sansa, book and show. 

It was after much discussion and following up with book excerpts as proof, that I realized the "odd" feeling I had between Sansa and Sandor could be true. 

That fact that the show "surprised" us with the Hound moving north just as Sansa is supposed to be (overdue) coming into her own as we start to forsee the downfall of Littledinger just connects all the dots. 

[Woman of War]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

What foreshadowing for Tyrion? There is no foreshadowing whatsoever for Tyrion to be Sansa's husband by the end of the books. 

Actually the biggest foreshadowing is "and what if I never want?" From Sansa to Tyrion in their wedding night.

That cries out aloud that some day she will want. This rhetorical question has been kept by the series, I am quite sure that we are supposed to remember that. Dislike can be expressed in many ways in a movie but this is an iconic phrase imo.

But more important to me are the historical references Elisabetta Duo has so well explained in this thread: The marriage of Elizabeth of York - her little brothers were those poor princes in the Tower, who disappeared - and Henry VII, the last survivor of House Lancaster. This marriage ended the War of the Roses. It's earlier in this thread.

These two were  willing to marry since they were very much aware that this act could end the war. They had no doubt serious emotional obstacles to overcome before their marriage turned out relatively successful.

This might be the case with Tyrion and Sansa as well. A painful past, emotional ties that cannot be forgotten and yet the willingness to look forward and to see each other as option. Basically the same situation like Cat and Ned: we do not know what Ned's dreams had been but  Cat had wanted Brandon while Ned did not really impress her in the beginning.

 

I am of course speculating, like the SanSan fan do as well. We all may end as fools in the end or we cheer as  "I Told You So"s. But I believe that I have very good reasons for my prediction.

 

[Woman of War]

On 28. Juni 2016 at 6:24 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

........

3) real history behind both GoT/ASOIAF: their marriage might be inspired by Henry VII and Elizabeth of York's marriage which ended the War of the Roses

Despite Richard III being the main inspiration behind Tyrion, Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage seems to be inspired by real history marriage between Henry VII Tudor - descendant of an illegitimate branch of House Lancaster, red rose (=Lannister) - and Elizabeth of House York, white rose (= Stark), which ended the War of the Roses (Henry decided to adopt, as the Tudor rose, a combination of the white York rose + red Lancaster rose).

The marriage was set only for political reasons, but in the long run, they grew to really love each other (as stated both in Henry’s and Elizabeth’s biographies), plus there is a lot of private corrispondence proving that he was a very kind husband and father (and when she died giving childbirth to their last daughter, he shut himself alone in some place and refused to talk to anyone for days, became sick because he was heartbroken, almost died and he never remarried…this detail might have inspired Tywin’s storyline).

Now there are a good number of similarities: Elizabeth of York lived a very troublesome period in the years before her marriage because her younger brothers disappeared and their fate was unknown (Richard III was accused of mudering them, in the show that's Theon's storyline), she was red haired, known for being kind to her servants and she loved music and dancing. Henry VII was known for being high-spirited and very intelligent (though not handsome) and he proved to be a great reformer, he saw to the restoration of political stability in England and to many administrative, economic and diplomatic initiatives praised by historians, leaving a safe throne, a solvent government and a prosperous and reasonably united country when he died.

I’m not stating Tyron’s destiny = Henry’s destiny (Tyrion’s main inspiration was Henry’s former enemy Richard III, the ‘deformed’ misunderstood king and I’m not even sure Tyrion will be alive in the end and anyway it would be difficult if not impossible for a dwarf to become king) but it’s quite safe to assume GRRM had this marriage in mind, whatever he decides to make of it 

This is what I mean

[sweetsunray]

28 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Actually the biggest foreshadowing is "and what if I never want?" From Sansa to Tyrion in their wedding night.

That cries out aloud that some day she will want. This rhetorical question has been kept by the series, I am quite sure that we are supposed to remember that. Dislike can be expressed in many ways in a movie but this is an iconic phrase imo.

But more important to me are the historical references Elisabetta Duo has so well explained in this thread: The marriage of Elizabeth of York - her little brothers were those poor princes in the Tower, who disappeared - and Henry VII, the last survivor of House Lancaster. This marriage ended the War of the Roses. It's earlier in this thread.

These two were  willing to marry since they were very much aware that this act could end the war. They had no doubt serious emotional obstacles to overcome before their marriage turned out relatively successful.

This might be the case with Tyrion and Sansa as well. A painful past, emotional ties that cannot be forgotten and yet the willingness to look forward and to see each other as option. Basically the same situation like Cat and Ned: we do not know what Ned's dreams had been but  Cat had wanted Brandon while Ned did not really impress her in the beginning.

The marriage of Elizabeth of York with Henry Tudor is not a foreshadowing at all. There is a difference between inferring a parallel to history and mythology outside of the canon-world of a book and actual "foreshadowing". While George undeniably uses historical and mythological sources and incorporates them as themes in many of his main and secondary characters, he does not do a 1:1, and he often uses a twist. Henry Tudor was not just a lord's heir of a rivaling family. He was a king. Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor was actually set up between Sansa and Joffrey, with Joffey as Henry Tudor, and the twist that Sansa-Elizabeth escapes the betrothal and the marriage to Joffrey AND Tyrion Tudor.

And then you apply a twisted interpretation to one line that Sansa says to Tyrion - "What if I never want to?" - isolating it completely out of its context. At the most that's "teasing" by the author. It's isn't foreshadowing, certainly not when a paragraph before that you have "pity is the death of desire". What you're doing is taking one line, forget the whole scene in which is it said, with paragraph after paragraph of Sansa "trying to want to" but with each step concluding she doesn't want to. Her line is not a tease that comes out of nowhere. It is her conclusion of all the precedes it. If an actual line said is a foreshadowing then George does this by making the statement stand out against the context - it jarrs in the context. Jon's line to Arya is one such jarring line (though I always think "Jon knows nothing" as an addendum to it) as is Ned's to Arya about marrying a king. Foreshadowing lines are jarring and odd within the narrative and context, in order to draw attention to it. That is absolutely not the case with Sansa's line to Tyrion. It very much fits the whole context of the scene and is said as a conclusion.

So you bring two arguments forward that complely miss the mark on being "literary foreshadowing", let alone George's type of foreshadowing, and also claim there's "lots" of it? Again, none of what you argued is literary foreshadowing and it certainly is not even a lot of not-foreshadowing.

[Woman of War]

"Foreshadowing" is actually one of those poisoned words in these forums, just like "agency" 

I take it back and stay with: if both characters are still alive in the end I believe they will be married when all is said and done and I have very good reasons for this opinion.

Content? See, it did not take me many words to make you happy, sweetsunray