MoonKnight21

Tyrion + Sansa potentially Reunite

162 posts in this topic

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 3:41 AM, Lord Varys said:

If Sansa loses Littlefinger Tyrion is all she has got left. And Littlefinger won't remain in the show for long, I guess.

Sandor is another possibility but that would be awkward and stupid.

Robert Arryn is a good candidate for her. And he actually likes her as well, something not many other men apparently do. She should consider that aspect as well.

Perhaps she could be married off to one of the Thenns and play the role of Alys Karstark? That would create house Thenn to replace house Karstark at Karhold. Or perhaps at the Dreadfort. Both of those castles have no lords at the moment.

Varys too. That way she wouldn't have to worry about her husband wanting to have sex with her, something that appears to bother her greatly.

Although some theories postulate that she is Elizabeth I, and will marry the country as the "virgin queen".

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Show said bye-bye to Sansa's marriage with Tyrion in S5, during the conversation between LF and Roose. Not consummated -> so invalid non-existent marriage. In the books you can argue it's established that Septons are the sole people with the power to annul a marriage performed by the Faith. But the show simply established: not consummated, thus not married. Show is also notoriously bad in re-addressing such handwaved plot points, except to handwave some more, send someone off into the sunset or kill them off. So, best consider Tyrion-Sansa marriage to be history and "that was so S3, fam!"

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2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

There's no doubt that Tyrion respected Sansa and was as kind to her as circumstances permitted. Though as much as I ship them, I'm not sure I see any future for them. It isn't as if Sansa doesn't have any other options. Or more to the point obligations. A union between Sansa and Sweetrobin is pretty much necessary now to keep the Vale aligned with the North and to pry Littlefinger's claws out of him.

gag!

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4 hours ago, Lady Lyanna Mormont said:

I really like your theory and would love to see them reunite. I just don't think they'll be sitting on the IT, though. However, I can see Dany sitting and since she made him her Hand, maybe that's how the alliance happens. This whole dynamic seems plausible on the show but I always try to see how it would plan out on the books since the end game will be the same. After all she went through it's possible she starts looking at Tyrion differently and accepts the marriage on the show.

On the book though, there's no Ramsay for her and hopefully, Harry the Heir won't abuse her, I just don't think she's quite there to appreciate how Tyrion treated her. But I do hope, somehow, she realizes it and they reunite.

Thanks. I'm very curious about the books dynamic too, because it will be more complex than in the show.

In the books she didn't suffer any rape but I think she is able to recognize Tyrion's kindness all the same (as she couldn't in KL, because she was younger, traumatized about the death of her parents, etc.). 

Olena Tyrell indirectly ‘taught’ Sansa looks aren't everything when she was worring about Maergery and Jeoffrey… all she wanted to know was how Jeoffrey would treat her: 

Sansa: Joff . . . King Joffrey, he's . . . His Grace is very fair and handsome, and . . . and as brave as a lion." … the old woman snapped.

Olena: "But how kind is he? How clever? Has he a good heart, a gentle hand? Is he chivalrous as befits a king? Will he cherish Margaery and treat her tenderly, protect her honor as he would his own?".

Now, it seems to me that Sansa, both in the books and in the show, has come not to love him, of course, but to respect him as a man because of his kindness especially after she fled KL. She at times thinks of him, she compares other men's behavior to his, she also often calls him 'Tyrion' in her mind, while back in KL she always called him 'the Imp' in her mind and 'my Lord' in public unless he asked her to call him 'Tyion'. I think the books show this progress:

  •  Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa." The thought made her tummy flutter. She might never need to share a bed with Tyrion again. That was what she'd wanted . . . wasn't it?  
  • Lady Lysa caught her wrist. "Now tell me," she said sharply. "Are you with child? The truth now, I will know if you lie." "No," she said, startled by the question. "You are a woman flowered, are you not?" "Yes." Sansa knew the truth of her flowering could not be long hidden in the Eyrie. "Tyrion didn't . . . he never . . ." She could feel the blush creeping up her cheeks. "I am still a maid." "Was the dwarf incapable?" "No. He was only . . . he was . . ." Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt who hated him so. "He . . . he had whores, my lady. He told me so."
  • "Oh, Petyr, my precious, my precious, PEEEEEETYR!" Her last shriek was so loud that it set the dogs to barking, and two of her aunt's ladies could scarce contain their mirth. Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. … The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie (now what’s interesting here is that she is not disgusted by him anymore, she’s not thinking ‘he said he could be the knight of flowers in the dark but I find him repulsive’, she’s complaining because, by her point of view, he lied, he said he could be good to her but shortly after that, the news came that Robb and Catelyn had been murdered)
  • When Joffhad her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, notLittlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger neverlifted so much as his little finger for her. Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the manended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps,but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffreyand if she ever returned toKing's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hopedwould keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was acaptive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege atRiverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.
  • Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle… Joffrey was comely too, though, she reminded herself. A comely monster, that's what he was. Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was.

As for the show, she immediately dismissed the idea of him being a murderer, she mentioned to Lysa they both - not just her - were forced into marriage, she mentioned his kindess to Ramsay, etc..

 

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7 hours ago, bb1180 said:

There seems to be a flaw in your basic premise here.  The North does not follow the Faith of the Seven.  

That is not relevant at all, as long as they married in KL before the septon.

If you and your partner wed in a Catholic church and you are wed by a priest, if you want to annull that marriage you have to go to the ecclesiastic court, you can't go like "in my heart I'm _____ (insert other religion), so I want the rules of that religion applied to the marriage".

If you marry within / following a certain procedure / rite / religion, then that procedure regulates that marriage and its validity.

Of course, in our world a marriage can be broken before the State and be valid before the Church because everyone can get a divorce while the ecclesiastic court annulls the marriage only in rare and specific cases, but that's another kind of problem.

Edited by Elisabetta Duò

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18 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Thanks. I'm very curious about the books dynamic too, because it will be more complex than in the show.

In the books she didn't suffer any rape but I think she is able to recognize Tyrion's kindness all the same (as she couldn't in KL, because she was younger, traumatized about the death of her parents, etc.). 

Olena Tyrell indirectly ‘taught’ Sansa looks aren't everything when she was worring about Maergery and Jeoffrey… all she wanted to know was how Jeoffrey would treat her: 

Sansa: Joff . . . King Joffrey, he's . . . His Grace is very fair and handsome, and . . . and as brave as a lion." … the old woman snapped.

Olena: "But how kind is he? How clever? Has he a good heart, a gentle hand? Is he chivalrous as befits a king? Will he cherish Margaery and treat her tenderly, protect her honor as he would his own?".

Now, it seems to me that Sansa, both in the books and in the show, has come not to love him, of course, but to respect him as a man because of his kindness especially after she fled KL. She at times thinks of him, she compares other men's behavior to his, she also often calls him 'Tyrion' in her mind, while back in KL she always called him 'the Imp' in her mind and 'my Lord' in public unless he asked her to call him 'Tyion'. I think the books show this progress:

  •  Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa." The thought made her tummy flutter. She might never need to share a bed with Tyrion again. That was what she'd wanted . . . wasn't it?  
  • Lady Lysa caught her wrist. "Now tell me," she said sharply. "Are you with child? The truth now, I will know if you lie." "No," she said, startled by the question. "You are a woman flowered, are you not?" "Yes." Sansa knew the truth of her flowering could not be long hidden in the Eyrie. "Tyrion didn't . . . he never . . ." She could feel the blush creeping up her cheeks. "I am still a maid." "Was the dwarf incapable?" "No. He was only . . . he was . . ." Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt who hated him so. "He . . . he had whores, my lady. He told me so."
  • "Oh, Petyr, my precious, my precious, PEEEEEETYR!" Her last shriek was so loud that it set the dogs to barking, and two of her aunt's ladies could scarce contain their mirth. Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. … The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie (now what’s interesting here is that she is not disgusted by him anymore, she’s not thinking ‘he said he could be the knight of flowers in the dark but I find him repulsive’, she’s complaining because, by her point of view, he lied, he said he could be good to her but shortly after that, the news came that Robb and Catelyn had been murdered)
  • When Joffhad her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, notLittlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger neverlifted so much as his little finger for her. Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the manended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps,but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffreyand if she ever returned toKing's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hopedwould keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was acaptive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege atRiverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.
  • Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle… Joffrey was comely too, though, she reminded herself. A comely monster, that's what he was. Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was.

As for the show, she immediately dismissed the idea of him being a murderer, she mentioned to Lysa they both - not just her - were forced into marriage, she mentioned his kindess to Ramsay, etc..

 

Wow, thanks for that, I lot of things went unnoticed and it was cool to read it again! Also, it really seems to point into that direction that they will reunite. But I still think she's not quite there yet, you know. But then again, there's a lot more character development to happen on the books and there's gonna be a while before they see each other again (maybe only in book 7, I guess...) so I'm thinking there will be time for her to mature more. I found their relationship a little awkward when I first read it, but now I'm warming up to the idea of them ending up together, this is really exciting! :D

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I've just realized in my previous post about Tyrion and Sansa's possible reunion I forgot to paste and copy (from the ASOIAF section) the part about the

*CONTENTS FROM THE BOOKS ALSO*

4) possible relevance of Tyrion and Sansa's mirroring narrative arcs

as we know, GRRM didn't stick to the original outline where Sansa was doomed and Tyrion was meant to fall for Arya and now Sansa and Tyrion, despite starting in very different places, seem to have somehow mirroring arcs, which might be coincidence but it might also prelude to a reunion of some kind. 

- he defines himself / gets called 'little lion' / she is called 'little bird'

- they both long for true love 

Cersei: "Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?

Sansa: "everyone wants to be loved"

he often complains nobody could ever love him, she often complains men want her only for her claim. Ironically, in the books he says within himself that he wants Winterfell but he wants her as a person as well. She doesn't know that he feels this way.

- in a political marriage together (he's a dwarf! / she's a child!) and slow building trust

- both assume leading roles during the battle of Blackwater 

Sansa leads the women; Tyrion leads the soldiers 

- both are victims of Jeoffrey's cruelty and both show compassion  / try to help the other 

- both leave KL as fugitives after Jeoffrey’s murder thanks to a 3rd party (SerDontos+Petyr / Varys)

- both think the other didn’t commit the murder and defend this position against 3rd parties 

GOT Tyrion: "Sansa couldn't have done this"

GOT Littlefinger: "Perhaps it was your husband

GOT Sansa: "No"

GOT Littlefinger: "How do you know?"

GOT Sansa: "I just do".

- Lysa Arryn wanted them both dead and they both risked to fly through the moon door

- both have to disguise themselves as bastards 

Sansa = bastard Alyane Stone

Tyrion = bastard Hugor Hill

Btw, the names might be mirroring themselves too: he picked up the name of a King and she was given a name resembling the name of a Targ Queen. Hugor Hill = King of the Andals and Alyane resembles - I don't know whether on purpose or not - Alysanne, the name of a Targaryen Queen. If Alyane / Alysanne is not a thing but just a coincidence, then I guess GRRM had Tyrion pick up Hugor only because he wanted to keep the parallelism with Tyrion, both being name of Kings (Hugor = King of the Andals; Tyrion = King Tyrion I, Tyrion II and Tyrion III).

- for both, living in disguise is meant to be an humbling experience

Sansa has a taste of life as a bastard, she starts to feel emphaty for the situation while she is forced to live as the bastard daughter of a low-rank noble and understands the privilege she had, being a true born Stark

Tyrion learns how it is to live as a poor dwarf / slave and he realizes that despite his condition, being a Lannister he was still a priviliged person  ("Had I known it would come to this, Father, I might have let you live")

- both, living in disguise, get to be kissed by someone without asking for it 

Petyr (Littlefinger) kisses Sansa

"I told you that nothing could please me more than to help you with your castle. I fear that was a lie as well. Something else would please me more." He stepped closer. "This."

Sansa tried to step back, but he pulled her into his arms and suddenly he was kissing her. Feebly, she tried to squirm, but only succeeded in pressing herself more tightly against him. His mouth was on hers, swallowing her words. He tasted of mint. For half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss . . . before she turned her face away and wrenched free. "What are you doing?" 

Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid."

"You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now. "Your lady wife."

Penny kisses Tyrion - and he even uses Sansa as an excuse to turn Penny down

 Come-into-my-castle was a game for highborn children, one meant to teach them courtesy, heraldry, and a thing or two about their lord father's friends and foes. "That won't …" he started. The deck gave another violent heave, slamming the two of them together. Penny gave a squeak of fright. "That game won't do" Tyrion told her, gritting his teeth. "Sorry. I don't know what game —" 

"I do." Penny kissed him.
It was an awkward kiss, rushed, clumsy. But it took him utterly by surprise. His hands jerked up and grabbed hold of her shoulders to shove her away. Instead he hesitated, then pulled her closer, gave her a squeeze. Her lips were dry, hard, closed up tighter than a miser's purse. A small mercy, thought Tyrion. This was nothing he had wanted. He liked Penny, he pitied Penny, he even admired Penny in a way, but he did not desire her. He had no wish to hurt her, though; the gods and his sweet sister had given her enough pain. So he let the kiss go on, holding her gently by the shoulders. His own lips stayed firmly shut. The Selaesori Qhoran rolled and shuddered around them.
Finally she pulled back an inch or two. Tyrion could see his own reflection shining in her eyes. Pretty eyes, he thought, but he saw other things as well. A lot of fear, a little hope … but not a bit of lust. She does not want me, no more than I want her. When she lowered her head, he took her under the chin and raised it up again. "We cannot play that game, my lady." Above the thunder boomed, close at hand now.
"I never meant … I never kissed a boy before, but … I only thought, what if we drown, and I … I …"
"It was sweet," lied Tyrion, "but I am married. She was with me at the feast, you may remember her. Lady Sansa."
"Was she your wife? She … she was very beautiful …"
And false (**). Sansa, Shae, all my women … Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go? "A lovely girl," said Tyrion, "and we were joined beneath the eyes of gods and men. It may be that she is lost to me, but until I know that for a certainty I must be true to her."
(**) this was when he was in his darkest place, depressed, suicidal, angry at Jamie and at the whole world … the show let this part out. Later in the book, he kinda starts to recover. 
Kem liked that. "Singer's stew. I'll ask for that next time I get back to Flea Bottom. What do you miss, Halfman?"
Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wifeI miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew. "Wine, whores, and wealth," he answered.
This line generated endless speculations:
if GRRM wrote "Shae. Tysha, my wife", then it would be =>  Shae. Tysha, his former wife. 
instead, GRRM had Tyrion say "Shae. Tysha. My wife" so that it's possible to argue that he meant => Shae. Tysha. His wife (Sansa).  

- both, if GoT is to be believed, rebuilt themselves thanks to / after their humbling experience in disguise (that's what happened on the show, at least; in the books, Sansa is still Alayne and Tyrion has still to meet Daenerys… we'll see how it works out).

Now to me these seem too many mirroring situations to be mere coincidences. Unless it's misdirection, of course, with GRRM you never know.

 
Edited by Elisabetta Duò

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43 minutes ago, Lady Lyanna Mormont said:

Wow, thanks for that, I lot of things went unnoticed and it was cool to read it again! Also, it really seems to point into that direction that they will reunite. But I still think she's not quite there yet, you know. But then again, there's a lot more character development to happen on the books and there's gonna be a while before they see each other again (maybe only in book 7, I guess...) so I'm thinking there will be time for her to mature more. I found their relationship a little awkward when I first read it, but now I'm warming up to the idea of them ending up together, this is really exciting! :D

I know! I'm SO curious, if only The Winds of Winter came out!! if he dies, I hope he dies after we get our little reunion xd

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3 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Thanks. I'm very curious about the books dynamic too, because it will be more complex than in the show.

In the books she didn't suffer any rape but I think she is able to recognize Tyrion's kindness all the same (as she couldn't in KL, because she was younger, traumatized about the death of her parents, etc.). 

Olena Tyrell indirectly ‘taught’ Sansa looks aren't everything when she was worring about Maergery and Jeoffrey… all she wanted to know was how Jeoffrey would treat her: 

Sansa: Joff . . . King Joffrey, he's . . . His Grace is very fair and handsome, and . . . and as brave as a lion." … the old woman snapped.

Olena: "But how kind is he? How clever? Has he a good heart, a gentle hand? Is he chivalrous as befits a king? Will he cherish Margaery and treat her tenderly, protect her honor as he would his own?".

Now, it seems to me that Sansa, both in the books and in the show, has come not to love him, of course, but to respect him as a man because of his kindness especially after she fled KL. She at times thinks of him, she compares other men's behavior to his, she also often calls him 'Tyrion' in her mind, while back in KL she always called him 'the Imp' in her mind and 'my Lord' in public unless he asked her to call him 'Tyion'. I think the books show this progress:

  •  Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa." The thought made her tummy flutter. She might never need to share a bed with Tyrion again. That was what she'd wanted . . . wasn't it?  
  • Lady Lysa caught her wrist. "Now tell me," she said sharply. "Are you with child? The truth now, I will know if you lie." "No," she said, startled by the question. "You are a woman flowered, are you not?" "Yes." Sansa knew the truth of her flowering could not be long hidden in the Eyrie. "Tyrion didn't . . . he never . . ." She could feel the blush creeping up her cheeks. "I am still a maid." "Was the dwarf incapable?" "No. He was only . . . he was . . ." Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt who hated him so. "He . . . he had whores, my lady. He told me so."
  • "Oh, Petyr, my precious, my precious, PEEEEEETYR!" Her last shriek was so loud that it set the dogs to barking, and two of her aunt's ladies could scarce contain their mirth. Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. … The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie (now what’s interesting here is that she is not disgusted by him anymore, she’s not thinking ‘he said he could be the knight of flowers in the dark but I find him repulsive’, she’s complaining because, by her point of view, he lied, he said he could be good to her but shortly after that, the news came that Robb and Catelyn had been murdered)
  • When Joffhad her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, notLittlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger neverlifted so much as his little finger for her. Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the manended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps,but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffreyand if she ever returned toKing's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hopedwould keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was acaptive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege atRiverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.
  • Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle… Joffrey was comely too, though, she reminded herself. A comely monster, that's what he was. Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was.

As for the show, she immediately dismissed the idea of him being a murderer, she mentioned to Lysa they both - not just her - were forced into marriage, she mentioned his kindess to Ramsay, etc..

 

Well, I don't think Tyrion is actually all that kind to Sansa at all. It's made very clear why Tyrion marries Sansa - to have WF. When Tywin mentions it to Tyrion, Tywin also says he can have Lancel marry her.. and Sansa is actually aiding Lancel who's healing from his wounds of the battle. But Tyrion can't stand the idea of Lancel getting WF. He's resentful of her not kneeling for him. Who's the child here of the two? The 20-something adult who says, "Ok, I'll marry her thought I know she'll hate it... stupid girl, couldn't you kneel?" or Sansa whose only option to rebel against this marriage at sword-point is not to kneel for him during the ceremony? Tyrion's only kind to her purely for his own gain. He resents her when she basically sees through that. That's not actual kindness. It certainly isn't a sincere kindness. That's just manipulative. At best, Tyrion's just being politically correct to Sansa. 

If you were to argue - he doesn't abuse his position, I could agree with that. He's not a monster to her. But not being cruel to someone is not the same thing as being kind. The fact that Sansa starts to consider his lack of cruelty to her as kindness actually reveals she's suffering from abuse trauma. It's the same thing as an abuse victim thinking the abuser is kind because he withheld punishment. And yes, Tyrion did abuse her in the sense that he had the choice to force her into marrying him or another.

It's also a completely false impression with readers that Sansa rejects Tyrion on account of looks alone. The wedding night in the books can be set against Sandor escorting Sansa to the tower and revealing the cause of his burns to her. In both cases we have a disfigured man, but only with one of them mental and emotional intimacy is established - Sandor. Attraction is not solely based on looks, as Olenna points out, but on the ability of two people being able to establish an intimate bond between them on several levels.

This is from an essay I wrote once on Sansa's sexual maturation process in the books -

 

Quote

 

But what about Tyrion? you may ask. Cannot he be her beast? He could have been if George was writing Sansa’s sexual maturation as that of a girl who bends to the desire and will of a man, bends to reality. But that is not how he wrote her maturation at all. He writes a maturation arc where Sansa’s idealism and fantasy is insular to what other people want and she explores that idealistic fantasy world to figure out what and who she ultimately wants. Her marriage to Tyrion is a forced one and contrasts every fantasy Sansa ever had about her wedding. Her later positive thought about him having been kind to her, and that she would rather remain married to Tyrion than wed Sweetrobin are pure cognitive things she tells herself.

Sansa felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes, but she could not imagine ever wanting to be his wife. I would sooner be married to Tyrion again. (aSoS, Sansa VII)

And as cognitive thoughts go, it is not even a positive one. Basically, Sansa is thinking she would rather have cholera than the plague. And when it comes to actually desiring a man in comparison to Tyrion, Sansa desires Sandor, but not Tyrion.

Sometimes it is argued that Sansa rejects Tyrion purely on beauty standards. But the private wedding night scene where they both down Arbor Gold reveals the miss-match goes far deeper than that. Remember that her first private scene with Sandor contained the following ingredients:

  • emotional and mental intimacy
  • honesty
  • fear
  • vulnerability
  • touch

All those elements are present in one way or another in the wedding night scene with Tyrion as well. Tyrion tells her the story of his wedding night with Tysha, he admits his flaws and mentions how he could be good to her, and finally he sits completely naked with his erection exposed, and subjugates himself completely to her will. Can there by a more vulnerable moment than one where two people get undressed and prepare to be physically intimate?

The Imp turned away from her. “The first time I wed, there was us and a drunken septon, and some pigs to bear witness. We ate one of our witnesses at our wedding feast. Tysha fed me crackling and I licked the grease off her fingers, and we were laughing when we fell into bed.”…[snip]…
“Who was she, my lord?” Sansa was curious despite herself.
“Lady Tysha.” His mouth twisted. “Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet. Ours was a very short marriage . . . as befits a very short man, I suppose.” (aSoS, Sansa III)

Initially, Tyrion reveals something personal about himself, naturally provoking Sansa’s curiosity and she expresses interest. But Tyrion become sarcastic. And Sansa’s reaction to this is…

Sansa stared down at her hands and said nothing.

It is tempting to conclude that Tyrion’s sarcasm puts her off, but Sandor for example has expressed nihilism and cynicism and that never stopped Sansa from responding to it. From this discrepancy, we can already conclude that something is lacking for Sansa to form even a mental intimacy with Tyrion.

Sansa too becomes vulnerable and fearful as she undresses herself.

Her hands trembled as she began fumbling at her clothes. She had ten thumbs instead of fingers, and all of them were broken. Yet somehow she managed the laces and buttons, and her cloak and gown and girdle and undersilk slid to the floor, until finally she was stepping out of her smallclothes. Gooseprickles covered her arms and legs. She kept her eyes on the floor, too shy to look at him, but when she was done she glanced up and found him staring. There was hunger in his green eye, it seemed to her, and fury in the black. Sansa did not know which scared her more.

So, just as with Sandor here too Sansa experiences fear and vulnerability as she is exposed to a man’s desire. Several times, Tyrion insists with Sansa to drop the courtesies between them, as well as tells her not to lie about his physical appearance. So, there is honesty too, to some extent. When he tells her how he is the Knight of Flowers in the darkness and could be good to her, honestly trying to lay out his negatives as well as his qualities Tyrion exposes himself emotionally to her. She even realizes he is equally frightened.

Don’t lie, Sansa. I am malformed, scarred, and small, but . . .” she could see him groping “. . . abed, when the candles are blown out, I am made no worse than other men. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers.” He took a draught of wine. “I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I’ve proven I’m no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere. I could be . . . I could be good to you.”
He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling.

But where such exposure made Sansa reach out to touch Sandor and empathize with him, fear for him, here she feels pity instead. And pity is the death to desire.

Finally Sansa witnesses Tyrion at his most vulnerable – naked and with an erection. Even his position, at her feet, basically tells us how he is putting himself out there. And he completely and fully subjugates himself to her will, to her desire. With this, any mental resistance to Tyrion because of her being forced into the marriage is removed, and Sansa is given the right to choose.

He was sitting by her feet, naked. Where his legs joined, his man’s staff poked up stiff and hard from a thicket of coarse yellow hair, but it was the only thing about him that was straight.
“My lady,” Tyrion said, “you are lovely, make no mistake, but . . . I cannot do this. My father be damned. We will wait. The turn of a moon, a year, a season, however long it takes. Until you have come to know me better, and perhaps to trust me a little.” His smile might have been meant to be reassuring, but without a nose it only made him look more grotesque and sinister.

Sansa does try to find the beauty in the man, to find the Knight of Flowers in him, but cannot find it. She is deeply repulsed by him to consider him in any manner as her lover.

Look at him, Sansa told herself, look at your husband, at all of him, Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try. She stared at the stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the coarse tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard. Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?

Where Sandor forced her to look at him, Sansa forces herself to look at Tyrion. Isolated from the previous passages, the paragraph seems to indicate that Sansa rejects Tyrion purely on the grounds of his looks. But it is not isolated from the preceding interaction. It is the culmination of it. George shows us that for Sansa there is no chemistry whatsoever. To Tyrion’s mental vulnerability she can only be silent. For his emotional vulnerability she can only feel pity. The above quote is Sansa trying to find at least physical chemistry, in the absence of emotional and mental one. And she cannot find it. And that is why she knows she will never want him to touch her.

“On my honor as a Lannister,” the Imp said, “I will not touch you until you want me to.”
It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, “And if I never want you to, my lord?”
His mouth jerked as if she had slapped him. “Never?”
Her neck was so tight she could scarcely nod.

Not even a lifetime will ever cause the sparks to fly for her.

I would say the main reason she feels no attraction to him, not at any level is highlighted with this later quote.

What does he want me to say? “That is good to know, my lord.” He wanted something from her, but Sansa did not know what it was. He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won’t he leave me be? (aSoS, Sansa IV)

Tyrion considers Sansa to be the child in the marriage, but in many ways Tyrion acts like a needy child to Sansa – as if he constantly desires a reassuring pat on the shoulder and a cookie for good behavior from her. And Tyrion already shows this need for reassurance from Sansa during the wedding night. And it is this show of need from him that makes her look at her hands, feel pity and unable to find aything attractive in him.

 

I'll reiterate the last paragraph: Tyrion displays neediness to be reassured by her almost constantly. It's off-putting. Men run from women behaving needy. Women run from it too in men.

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2 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

- he defines himself / gets called 'little lion' / she is called 'little bird'

Tyrion's also called a giant. Sansa's also prophesied to slay a savage giant (though I don't think that's actually Tyrion), and most importantly - who calles Sansa a "little bird"? Sandor. Only one person calls Sansa "little bird" - Sandor, the man who gave her his cloak, a cloak she keeps, and she dreams of, places mentally in her marriage bed, and believes she has kissed.

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- they both long for true love 

Most characters long for true love... at least those who are capable of feeling love anyway.

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he often complains nobody could ever love him, she often complains men want her only for her claim. Ironically, in the books he says within himself that he wants Winterfell but he wants her as a person as well. She doesn't know that he feels this way.

He doesn't want her as a person. He shows complete lack of interest in who she is, what she wants, what she likes. The pea dinner scene shows that. He just wants her to want him. That's not the same thing.

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Btw, the names might be mirroring themselves too: he picked up the name of a King and she was given a name resembling the name of a Targ Queen. Hugor Hill = King of the Andals and Alyane resembles - I don't know whether on purpose or not - Alysanne, the name of a Targaryen Queen. If Alyane / Alysanne is not a thing but just a coincidence, then I guess GRRM had Tyrion pick up Hugor only because he wanted to keep the parallelism with Tyrion, both being name of Kings (Hugor = King of the Andals; Tyrion = King Tyrion I, Tyrion II and Tyrion III).

Alysane's a historical Vale figure. The waterfall at the Eyrie is called Alysane's Tears. And in the godswood of the Eyrie stands a statue of this Vale woman, the one that Vardis and Bronn damage in their fight in aGoT in Cat's chapter. Alysane lost her husband and all her children, but never wept. For this the gods cursed her to roam the Vale forever, even after death, until her tears touch the Vale's soil. That's why the waterfall is named after this legendary figure. It's so high up in the sky, that all its water evaporates before it can actually touch the valley floor. And it heavily ties Sansa to her mother.   

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- both, living in disguise, get to be kissed by someone without asking for it 

Sansa's also being kissed by men she doesn't want and without her asking when she isn't in disguise: Joffrey and Dontos.

 

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Actually It is an interesting debate about whether the Tyrion/Sansa marriage might be still valid or not. If it is they both cannot remarry and start other marriage alliances or valid Highborn marriages.

But a marriage in the name of the Seven or under a Weirwood tree is valid everywhere, the contract - and a marriage was a very important contract for nobility in a timesetting like that - was valid everywhere, otherwise Ned and Cat would have had to marry twice. Their marriage was an important alliance between two great Houses, there could not be left any room for doubt.

But one thing is true: An autocratic ruler  can declare anything invalid or valid if it fits his or her politics. But even Henry VIII saw that it  was not recommended politically to pressure everything, he had to create an ideological veil of religious justification (or an accusation of adultery, too bad  but necessary, hélas) to go through with ending a marriage.

Though in show universe they brushed off those technicalities in a very casual manner.

But  for the  fate and the personal happiness of Tyrion and Sansa in the end this little problem won't be as important as people make it here in these forums. It's more the historical references - a marriage in order to make peace -  that are fascinating and of which Martin is no doubt very much aware. Certainly Tyrion will not chain Sansa to the wall of Casterly Rock or of his newly founded wine cellar in order to keep her from running away. And certainly Sansa will not feed him some love potion to force him into consummation. If they want to say hello but good bye to each other they will simply ride into opposite directions, legally married or not. And if they wish to be married, for personal or political reasons, they can simply play it safe and marry again.

 

Edited by Woman of War

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I'd say Sansa should go back to Tyrion, he might be a good husband to her. 

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20 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

I know! I'm SO curious, if only The Winds of Winter came out!! if he dies, I hope he dies after we get our little reunion xd

Me too! I used to think he was going to die but the show made me think he might be of value to Dany and therefore, survive until the end. I'm afraid though they'll only meet again by the end of the book or in ADoS

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20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Tyrion's also called a giant. Sansa's also prophesied to slay a savage giant (though I don't think that's actually Tyrion), and most importantly - who calles Sansa a "little bird"? Sandor. Only one person calls Sansa "little bird" - Sandor, the man who gave her his cloak, a cloak she keeps, and she dreams of, places mentally in her marriage bed, and believes she has kissed.

Most characters long for true love... at least those who are capable of feeling love anyway.

He doesn't want her as a person. He shows complete lack of interest in who she is, what she wants, what she likes. The pea dinner scene shows that. He just wants her to want him. That's not the same thing.

Alysane's a historical Vale figure. The waterfall at the Eyrie is called Alysane's Tears. And in the godswood of the Eyrie stands a statue of this Vale woman, the one that Vardis and Bronn damage in their fight in aGoT in Cat's chapter. Alysane lost her husband and all her children, but never wept. For this the gods cursed her to roam the Vale forever, even after death, until her tears touch the Vale's soil. That's why the waterfall is named after this legendary figure. It's so high up in the sky, that all its water evaporates before it can actually touch the valley floor. And it heavily ties Sansa to her mother.   

Sansa's also being kissed by men she doesn't want and without her asking when she isn't in disguise: Joffrey and Dontos.

 

 

I think I have indirectly already replied in the other post (he doesn't want her as a person, etc.).

 I listed a lot of parallels and you are rightly listing, here, the ones I considered the weakest myself (the little/little might be generic, I suggested myself Alyane and Alysanne might be a coincidence).

The fact they both kissed other people doesn't change that they both had to 'suffer' a kiss they didn't want while living in diguise as bastards. Sansa gets more kisses she doesn't want than him because she's a woman in a society where women were 'less'. 

That said, a lot of the other mirroring situations are strong ones and everyone can see that. I don't own the Holy Truth so I don't know if and to which extend they will be relevant or not in the show or in the books (I'm not ever sure he will live), but it's undeniable Tyrion's and Sansa's narrative arcs are somehow mirroring each other, more than others and I find unlikely that this is just a coincidence, 'knowing' GRRM.

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13 hours ago, Woman of War said:

But a marriage in the name of the Seven or under a Weirwood tree is valid everywhere, the contract - and a marriage was a very important contract for nobility in a timesetting like that - was valid everywhere, otherwise Ned and Cat would have had to marry twice. Their marriage was an important alliance between two great Houses, there could not be left any room for doubt.

This is exactly what I meant.

13 hours ago, Woman of War said:

An autocratic ruler  can declare anything invalid or valid if it fits his or her politics. But even Henry VIII saw that it  was not recommended politically to pressure everything, he had to create an ideological veil of religious justification (or an accusation of adultery, too bad  but necessary, hélas) to go through with ending a marriage.

That's also true (not only Henry VIII but it happened all the time everywhere). Also, often the religious shield was so thin to be transparent. Like with the Dissolution of Monasteries  to gain the lands and the gold they had.

I guess either Sansa or Daenerys might end up as 'single', a single Queen like Elizabeth I. I really love her as a figure (I am named after her) and the Henry VIII - Elizabeth I period in general (I love that era and I also love theatre, so…) but   hadn't she had Walsingham and Cecil to watch her back in different fields, she would have ended badly. Cecil ruled de facto instead of Elizabeth in many matters, because she trusted him absolutely. Maybe Tyrion, if he doesn't die, could fill Cecil's role for one of them (generically speaking, Tyrion is not really interested in religion, for example). Which one of them will marry? And if one of them - or both - marries / marry, would that marriage last or the husband would die? Would the bride marry again? Hard to say. 

Out of topic

Spoiler

Have you ever read CJ Sansom's Matthew Shardlake crime series?

14 hours ago, Woman of War said:

t's more the historical references - a marriage in order to make peace -  that are fascinating and of which Martin is no doubt very much aware. 

I would pay the money I don't have, to know how he mixed up all the pieces. I love the war of the roses and the following period. It's twice difficult because some early quotes might be misleading, given that he changed the original outline a lot. I know GRRM claimed the endgame of the main charaters is the same it was back in the says (he just changed the way they reached that endgame (Sansa's arc is totally different and while she was doomed in the first outline, now she is clearly destined to survive... who knows how this impacts on the other characters' path). I don't let myself be too hopeful about Tyrion because in the original outline, there was a deathly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon about Arya and she loved the second.. and Tyrion was also described in old interviews as a villain (even if Jamie was to be king and a probably embody the evil villain, now his storyline seems to be Cersei's)… so many things have changed, but if the endgame of the main characters is the same, it's possible Tyrion, the rejected villain, was originally meant to die at the very end and so he is still meant to die, even if he's an anti-hero now. I hope it was not the case. Of course, GRRM can also make him survive and claim he always wanted him to…we would never know. I just hope so much he'll live and I would be really glad if he and Sansa got to be reunited somehow, as allies, friends or partners/married couple (that's the silly fangirl in me). I know a lot of people said that the 5 who were meant to made it 'to the very end' are the 5 survivors of the series.. but one can die also at the very end and the last paragraph of the famous 1991 outline was blackened.

 

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3 hours ago, Lady Lyanna Mormont said:

 I'm afraid though they'll only meet again by the end of the book or in ADoS

Same, there's so much meat before we get there (the show is so much ahead of the books).

Spoiler

Unless TWOW is a two-volumes books (actually both of them might be). I can't wait for it to come out - I hope it will be in autumn / in time for Christmas or at the most before the next GOT seson, but I'm concerned about ADOS, I hope it won't take him 7 years. AGOT, AKOK and the two volumes of ASOS are my fave books of his. I hope TWOW and ADOS will be as good as it.

 

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I for one, hope Sansa never meets Tyrion again, unless it is witness to Tyrion's head on a spike.

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I'm of the opinion that GRRM is telling a story that is supposed to be layered and interesting, and given the amount of posts and length of time of this forum, it obviously is. But it is his story and I don't think he's re-doing history or retelling it, with new character names. This is purportedly his 'masterpiece' entry in the written word department. Hopefully we will have TWoW sometime in the next year and will be able to continue the debate, including the new plot and twists that are revealed.

I know it's fun to pick out historical references, but again, I see this as GRRM's baby, his story to be told. He's not going to make it just like history, how can it be? It's got dragons and warging in it.

So, that being said, this is a Show thread and the Show has played very fast and loose with the book elements that remain. The rest will be what GRRM told the showrunners and we, as fans (and book readers) have only the Show to guide us there (and it's not the best guide, given that it has failed to have characters remember its own history).

However, the Show has continued to have their Sansa refer to Tyrion as being kind to her. I would assume that this means she will at some point in the future, expect him to treat her kindly. Perhaps the twist will be that he doesn't, not that he does. Now that would be juicy! Imagine the anger from show-only Tyrion fans. This isn't out of the range of possibility, given that the show likes to dangle things in front of viewers eyes, only to snatch them away at the last minute -- or lead the viewer down one path only to have it be a dead end, or just a worse path than they were on.

I like the idea of Tyrion turning dark. The show has had him be incredibly good, way better than his book character. He failed in Meereen, that could be the tip of the iceberg. Since he's with fire-and-blood Dany, and he was OK with giving the slaver's seven (!!) more years of slavery on the show, I'm going to venture that the most entertaining turn of Tyrion's future story would be for him to be ruthless and vindictive when he returns to Westeros with an army - ships, the Unsulled, Dothraki and dragons in tow. He may go after any and all that have harmed him in the past. Cersei, for one, had better watch out.

As for Sansa, Tyrion of the Show has not been shown to remember her or seem to care about her. If they do run into each other, I assume she'll be an antagonist of his, if she remains with the Winterfell storyline, with Littlefinger, or if she takes on another story (her own, perhaps?)

 

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28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Why do you feel the need to personalise this discussion? Why do you isolate a certain group of shippers and describe them as aggressive people? I said nothing about you. I merely quoted your arguments and gave on topic arguments in return, and clearly I do not agree with your claims. It's called debate. Disagreeing with someone is not per defintion aggressive, although I fully understand it might put a damper on enthusiasm if such was the case. This is a thread where discussion is allowed, yes? I never look at the number of posts someone has. If someone makes a long post with quotes and makes assertions, I tend to think they can handle being disagreed with and have their assertions being scrutinized.

It is indeed an interesting quote, albeit one weeks after marrying her. But the issue I have is that

a ) it is completely unrealistic in that situation

Sansa refused to bend for him during the wedding ceremony. She expresses complete lack of desire in him during the wedding night and that quote comes in a chapter where he can see that Sansa is unwilling to share anything with him. How Tyrion even can think that "she'll laugh, share her joys and lust" in those circumstances is wishful thinking. It's delusional.

b ) it is all about "I want", aka what Tyrion wants, not what Sansa wants.

Sansa makes very clear what she wants - to be left alone. If he actually cares, he'd udnerstand that. But he doesn't. He's resentful that she does not want to give him what he wants from her.

c) his own actions and later thoughts do not hold up to that first thought of him at all.

Words and thoughts are meaningless if they are not matched in action. That's why I brought up the wedding night analysis. Sansa starts to show curiosity and interest, when he shares something about Tysha. This was a moment where Tyrion could have established some emotional connection with Sansa. Instead he rebuffs it and makes a self-cynical remark. Tyrion closed the door himself.

We see the same behavior during the wedding feast. Eventually, Sansa decides not to remain miserable and dance. What does Tyrion do? Drink and be sour and miserable. Despite the fact that Sansa was forced to marry a man she did not want (she did not bend for him), she dances and laughs and does try to make it better. But Tyrion does NOT laugh with her, etc.

Over and over, we read but thoughts of Tyrion being annoyed and judgmental - too pious, boring, damn now I'll have to eat all the peas, can't expect me to face x and y sober, telling how his sister and Joffrey displease him (as if they please Sansa?)

It's nothing but self-indulgent thought after self-indulgent thought, words and actions. Only at the Purple Wedding does he recollect that his question whether something is amiss is rather odd, considering her brother and mother were slaughtered at the red wedding. 

For a man who tells himself he cares about her, he shows a complete lack of actually caring for her at all. The reality is that he would only care for her if she was not being Sansa. If you can only care for someone as you wish them to be, rather than who they are, then you don't care for them at all. People aren't wax dolls to be molded for somebody else's personal pleasure. Just my 42-year old opinion.

 

When he marries her, he marries her for WF.

I don't see what bedding or not bedding has to do with it. In aSoIaF plenty of girls are wed as children, before even having bled (that includes a baby of a few months old), for their claims on a castle, and it's not expected for the man or boy to bed these girls. In fact, it is common for mature men to wait until the "wife" is slightly older than Sansa is at the time. So, NO, not ANY character would bed the wife they married for her claim when she's barely 13 years old.

The fact that he loses WF after the fact, does not negate the fact that Tyrion wed her for WF when he married her.

And despite all your quotes about the by-the-by game between Tyrion and Tywin, each for their personal amusement, the discussion ends with

That's when Robb and Cat are still alive BTW.

We are not discussing what Tywin wants, but we are discussing Tyrion. Tywin did not hold a gun to Tyrion's head.

That is all very much besides the point. He wants the claim on Winterfell, be damned Sansa. It doesn't matter whether Tywin gets what Tywin wants (he actually doesn't), or whether Lancel is an idiot or not. Nothing of the above is an argument about Tyrion caring about what Sansa wants.

Right. She's just been threatened by 2 kingsguard and Cersei to be dragged before the altar kicking and screaming, and Tyrion says, "If you want to marry Lancel, just say so, and we'll call the whole deal off" AFTER he already said yes to Tywin and the whole wedding party is waiting for her to arrive, AFTER he let her know that he knew all along and didn't go out of his way to warn her about it beforehand, jsut mere minutes before being dragged before the altar. Yes, I'm sure that Tyrion meant it... NOT. The aSoIaF saying of "words are wind" are very apt here. Tyrion is merely saying words without meaning them.

What does that have to do with Tyrion caring for her? How is, "I know she'll loathe me and I'm a Lannister, but she'll be forced to wed anyhow, so she might as well be forced to wed me" = he cares for her? It isn't.

Joffrey always hated him. It had nothing to do with Sansa. 
 

My essay is far longer than that quote. You are correct that this thread is not about Sansa's sexual awakening. It's very obvious that this thread does not take Sansa's desires into account at all. I merely mentioned the main subject I lifted a part of that essay in relation to Sansa's rejection of Tyrion. And I did this, because you argued in your post that Sansa rejected Tyrion for his looks. She rejected him for more than that. That's why the whole wedding night scene is built up in layers of different moments where intimacy could have been established: mental, emotional and physical. And Sansa ends up rejecting Tyrion

I quoted the wedding night where George establishes all the reasons why Sansa rejects Tyrion. And they are very fundamental reasons.

It's book 4 BTW. Book 6 is not yet published. Sansa's chapters after aSoS only appear in aFfC. If you wish to argue "selectiveness" then we have pot-kettle situation, since yours is also very selective: it leaves out all the "character development" regarding men that Sansa hoped to marry, is set up to be married, and dreams about. If you wish to make a thorough analysis regarding Sansa and potentional and non-potential men, I suggest you make one that incorporates all the men/boys: Joffrey, Sandor, Loras, Tyrion, Willas, Sweetrobin, Harry, etc... , rather than focus on only one. That's when you get a true full picture of the focus, the mirroring, the parallels, the comparisons, etc. (in fact my essay I quoted from analyses parallel scenes and comparisons that Sansa makes for Joffrey, Sandor, Loras, Tyrion, Willas and Harry)

I've said I wouldn't reply further and I won't for the reason I've explained, but this is just a 'technical' detail.

My quote "Little lord Tyrion was kinder" etc. is actually from book 6 as I said, it's her POV. GRRM released some chapters from the upcoming book, you may find them on his website or just gooling around. 

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This is not a love story, that's for sure. It's not even a like story, it's a, well, as enemies go, he wasn't the worst (kinder than Joffrey!) story. She's polite, but I bet she gets less polite at some point.

There nothing on her side at all, she so clearly doesn't want him, that's such an easy case to make. But he doesn't want her, either, beyond momentary lust. Show, they threw the marriage out.

This is not a man who loves a woman:

Quote

He made certain not to look at Sansa, lest his bitterness show in his eyes. You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?

Also calls her false, another no no in a romance:

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“Was she your wife? She … she was very beautiful …”

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women … Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go?

And there's more, he says the only part of him that wants her is his penis:

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My wife wants no part of me, and most especially not the part of me that seems to want her.

There's nothing on his side, either.

Edited by Le Cygne

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