MoonKnight21

Tyrion + Sansa potentially Reunite

177 posts in this topic

I think Tyrion will not end up with Sansa, his choice. Now that he is his own master, not Tywn's son, he may choose to stay single, or find another, but too much water has flowed under the bridge for Sansa and Tyrion. Too many bad memories outweigh the kindnesses.

After her disastrous relationship with Ramsey, another marriage is probably the last thing on Sansa's mind. Jon has named her Lady of Winterfell, why would she look to give that up when her two previous attempts were so mentally scarring? 

Sansa will not marriage Littlefinger, unless he has something iron clad to hold against her, and I don't see Arya letting him get away with that. Sansa knows his game, and certainly has more dirt on him than he does on her. No, Littlefinger is going to meet a Faceless death this year, it is known.

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I always said that I wouldn't like these two to end up together and I am almost sure they won't, but the idea has some Tolstoyean appeal to it. One can argue that Martin has the same relationship with Tyrion as Tolstoy had with Bezuhov in "War and Peace" or Levin in "Anna Karenina". On the other hand, Sansa, just like Tolstoy's heroines Natasha and Kitty started as being just the innocent darlings to continue to become independent young women, who are equals to more seasoned men they chose to love.

So, it can be an interesting parallel :D 

Edited by Risto

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Posted (edited)

On 2/24/2017 at 8:37 PM, Lady Sansa's Direwolf said:

I think Tyrion will not end up with Sansa, his choice. Now that he is his own master, not Tywn's son, he may choose to stay single, or find another, but too much water has flowed under the bridge for Sansa and Tyrion. Too many bad memories outweigh the kindnesses.

Yeah. I don't know what would possibly tempt Tyrion to try to get back together with Sansa. He never loved her. He never even wanted to marry her in the first place (in show canon, anyway) and he hasn't mentioned her once since his arrival in Essos. Tyrion doesn't seem to have much interest in women these days, as his failed encounter with the prostitute in Season 5 showed. Besides, if he's going to fall hopelessly in love with a beautiful woman who will never return his feelings, it will be Dany, who unlike Sansa has given Tyrion pretty much everything he ever wanted (respect, trust, purpose, a position earned by merit).

Also, Tyrion is no fool. He believes Sansa hated him and deliberately left him to die in KL (although he never seemed to blame her for it), and he was miserable when he was married to her. Why would he invite further misery by getting involved with her again? He would likely be thrilled to learn that Sansa had remarried and had freed him of any obligation towards her, since it would mean she was no longer his problem; his sense of duty towards her as her husband got him into all sorts of trouble in Season 3 and 4, after all.

Another point you made, which is a good one, is that Tyrion and Sansa's marriage was a product of Tywin's machinations. Now that Tyrion is free to make his own choice, he is unlikely to choose Sansa.

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After her disastrous relationship with Ramsey, another marriage is probably the last thing on Sansa's mind. Jon has named her Lady of Winterfell, why would she look to give that up when her two previous attempts were so mentally scarring?

Agreed. Sansa has everything she wants: Winterfell. She has no incentive to remarry, and there's no one in the picture who could force her to do so. She's not going to give up her current security unless she really wants to do so, and I don't think she would risk any of that for anyone, much less Tyrion.

But just assuming for the moment that Sansa and Tyrion do decide to make another go of it, how would that even work? Tyrion would want to live at Casterly Rock, and Sansa would never want to leave Winterfell (much less to live at Casterly Rock). So unless one of them is willing to make a very big compromise, I don't see how the logistics would work.

Edited by Newstar

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On 2/26/2017 at 11:35 PM, Risto said:

I always said that I wouldn't like these two to end up together and I am almost sure they won't, but the idea has some Tolstoyean appeal to it. One can argue that Martin has the same relationship with Tyrion as Tolstoy had with Bezuhov in "War and Peace" or Levin in "Anna Karenina". On the other hand, Sansa, just like Tolstoy's heroines Natasha and Kitty started as being just the innocent darlings to continue to become independent young women, who are equals to more seasoned men they chose to love.

So, it can be an interesting parallel :D 

I don't think so. The relationship you're looking for is between GRRM and Samwell Tarly, not Tyrion.

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4 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't think so. The relationship you're looking for is between GRRM and Samwell Tarly, not Tyrion.

Perhaps, but no one can deny that the relationship between Martin and Tyrion is far more profound than the one he has with Sam. 

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21 hours ago, Risto said:

Perhaps, but no one can deny that the relationship between Martin and Tyrion is far more profound than the one he has with Sam. 

I think GRRM has said that Sam is more like who he is, and Tyrion is more like who he would like to be (I assume he means in the witty repartee department, because otherwise there's not much about Tyrion that's aspirational).

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The Saintification of the Imp on the show is perhaps the most gratuitous BS of all. "Lord Tyrion was kind and gentle, he never touched me" was mocking the book version of their marriage, which because GRRM spared Sansa of losing herself to the IMP for a reason but he was not kind and gentle, he was greedy, nasty and it was all about him but it was not consummated because it would have been a rape of main character which GRRM said that he would never do. The Imp and Sansa on the show are not meant for each other either but people are free to dream all they want.

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The Saintification of the Imp on the show is perhaps the most gratuitous BS of all. "Lord Tyrion was kind and gentle, he never touched me" was mocking the book version of their marriage, which because GRRM spared Sansa of losing herself to the IMP for a reason but he was not kind and gentle, he was greedy, nasty and it was all about him but it was not consummated because it would have been a rape of main character which GRRM said that he would never do. The Imp and Sansa on the show are not meant for each other either but people are free to dream all they want.

Sansa doesn't love Tyrion

Tyrion doesn't love Sansa

They could end up together...only if the intention is to make them unhappy in a bittersweet ending. But it won't change they don't love eachother. Forced marriage.---

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18 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Sansa doesn't love Tyrion

Tyrion doesn't love Sansa

They could end up together...only if the intention is to make them unhappy in a bittersweet ending. But it won't change they don't love eachother. Forced marriage.---

It absolutely was forced but then this show.... She agreed to marry a Bolton, I would not put anything past them but it does seem the Hound is getting cleaned up and I cannot think of anyone he would do so for other than Sansa.

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2 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

It absolutely was forced but then this show.... She agreed to marry a Bolton, I would not put anything past them

but she won't mary someone who she doesn't want a third time in a row! 

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but it does seem the Hound is getting cleaned up and I cannot think of anyone he would do so for other than Sansa.

yep, I agree with that

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

"Lord Tyrion was kind and gentle, he never touched me" was mocking the book version of their marriage,

No, the books are very much in line with that. Book Sansa was about to refer to Tyrion as "kind" in the books to Lysa to explain why the marriage hadn't been consummated until she realized that Lysa was unlikely to be persuaded by that explanation since she hated Tyrion so much (as opposed to Sansa, who doesn't hate him). Her statement to Ramsay, also calculated to persuade that the marriage hadn't been consummated, was pretty much along the same lines.

As much as she hated the marriage, there's no indication that Sansa ever hated Tyrion in the books. Instead, all indications are that while she has no inclination to be married to him ever again, she thinks well of him in spite of everything. She objects to Littlefinger framing Tyrion for murder by saying "He did nothing." She contradicts Lysa's suggestion that Tyrion was impotent (why does she care if Lysa thinks Tyrion can't get it up?). She almost explains the non-consummation with reference to Tyrion's kindness until thinking better of it given Lysa's hatred towards Tyrion. When thinking about how Littlefinger did nothing for her in KL, she remembers how Tyrion saved her from being beaten by Joffrey. Tyrion even shows up in a list of people she can no longer rely on for aid in AFFC, with the others being Robb, her mother, Bran, Rickon, Edmure, Lysa, and the Blackfish.

So Sansa praising Tyrion on the show to third parties for his kindness and defending him to those who question that Tyrion never consummated the marriage is completely in line with the books. Other aspects of their relationship are very different from the books, such as their mutual confidence that the other did not kill Joffrey, but Sansa thinking well of Tyrion after she escapes KL and believing that he was kind for not consummating the marriage is not one of them.

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It absolutely was forced but then this show.... She agreed to marry a Bolton, I would not put anything past them but it does seem the Hound is getting cleaned up and I cannot think of anyone he would do so for other than Sansa.

Nah. Sandor has other priorities. To make a statement that applies as much to SanSan as it does to Tyrion and Sansa's endgame prospects, D&D are not subtle when it comes to foreshadowing. If you have to hunt for it--in this case by parsing wardrobe clues and saying that the only possible reason Sandor would be wearing different clothes is to impress Sansa (as opposed to, say, trading in his Season 6 outfit because it's not warm enough)--it's not there.

Edited by Newstar

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Book Sansa was repulsed by the Imp in the books but she was in constant fear of beating, death and rape by Joffrey. She had almost no agency in the books but what she did, she did so, like refusing to kneel for the Imp etc and other subtleties. She does not and never will want him or his. He is repugnant, a Lannister and her enemy. She is surviving during her ordeal in King's Landing but is as much a Stark as she can be with absolutely no desire to be a Lannister or a Bolton.

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3 hours ago, Newstar said:

No, the books are very much in line with that. Book Sansa was about to refer to Tyrion as "kind" in the books to Lysa to explain why the marriage hadn't been consummated until she realized that Lysa was unlikely to be persuaded by that explanation since she hated Tyrion so much (as opposed to Sansa, who doesn't hate him).

Sansa recognizes Tyrion's kindness and definitely sees him as 'not as bad as the other Lannisters' (she prefers marrying him over Joffrey or even Lancel), but still predominantly sees him as a Lannister - rightfully so since he avtively wordek for the Lannister side and actually in the books agreed to marry her for Winterfell. She recognizes his vulnerability and senses he wants something from her emotionally, but it mainly makes her uncomfortable ('he is like a child who looks at me for food, but I have nothing to give to him'). Finally she not only finds him physically repulsive, but takes it as a cruel joke at her expense, as a bitchslap on her dreams (she holds a similar attitude with Sweetrobin, when she remarks that 'Joffrey at least was physically healthy'). So while she doesn't necessarily hate him, and Tyrion might be absolved of the sin of being a Lannister by turning against them, she a. views him in disgust, b. already saw his good qualities and was unmoved by them.

Btw, the only Lannister the Book Sansa speaks favorably of, even as a marriage prospect, is Tommen, make of that what you will.

The show messes Sansa-Tyrion dynamics big time. Kneeling during the wedding aside, Sansa's 'Never' during the night is supposed to destroy Tyrion emotionally and shatter any chances of the relationship working, similarly to Robert's 'Lyanna' - and here we have Tyrion and Sansa behaving like best buddies before the RW, completely undermining this scene and Sansa's angst over being married to a Lannister. So while Book!Sansa might have ackowledged Tyrion's virtues (and it still didn't make her warm up to him), TV!Sansa's being impressed by his saintly glow is a complete BS.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Sansa recognizes Tyrion's kindness and definitely sees him as 'not as bad as the other Lannisters' (she prefers marrying him over Joffrey or even Lancel), but still predominantly sees him as a Lannister - rightfully so since he avtively wordek for the Lannister side and actually in the books agreed to marry her for Winterfell. She recognizes his vulnerability and senses he wants something from her emotionally, but it mainly makes her uncomfortable ('he is like a child who looks at me for food, but I have nothing to give to him'). 

None of that contradicts my point, which is that TV Sansa just like Book Sansa thinks highly of Tyrion, defends him to others, and calls him "kind" post-KL, which a previous poster wrongly tried to characterize as some sort of show-only abomination. Doesn't mean that she ever got over his ugliness or wanted to be married to him again, but then, I didn't say that, did I?

 

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Tyrion might be absolved of the sin of being a Lannister by turning against them, she a. views him in disgust, b. already saw his good qualities and was unmoved by them.

Well, no. Sansa sings hymns for Tyrion during Blackwater, tells him that she remembers his kindness to her, disapproves of Littlefinger framing Tyrion, defends him to Lysa when Lysa suggests that he was impotent, compares him rescuing her from the ACOK beating favourably to Littlefinger's failure to offer her assistance in KL, and even suggests that she might have looked to Tyrion for help as she would from other family members if she believed he were still alive. So she was moved by his good qualities. His kindness didn't create any sort of attraction on her part or make her want to be married to him, but it made a big difference to her given his close family ties to several people she hated.

The bottom line is that Book Sansa has a high opinion of Tyrion, a much higher opinion of Tyrion, in fact, than some of the posters on this thread who have railed about how horrible Tyrion is and how shamefully he treated her. Book Sansa even genuinely viewed Tyrion as kind to her, and ultimately, her opinion is the one that matters, not theirs. Now maybe she shouldn't feel that way, but she does. The show's depiction of Sansa's high opinion of Tyrion post-KL is completely in line with the books. No deviation there whatsoever, apart from her belief in the show that Tyrion couldn't have killed Joffrey.

 

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So while she doesn't necessarily hate him

It's not that she doesn't "necessarily" hate him. She doesn't hate him, periodLysa hates him.

 

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Btw, the only Lannister the Book Sansa speaks favorably of, even as a marriage prospect, is Tommen, make of that what you will.

You neglected to mention that that's at the beginning of ACOK, before Tyrion has said even two words to her and before Sansa had the opportunity to form much of an opinion of him either way other than "ugly." It's also well before Tyrion saves her from the beating, which proved a kindness that meant a lot to her in the long run, since she still thinks of it in AFFC. The only Lannister Book Sansa sings hymns for during the Blackwater battle is Tyrion. Not Tommen, whom you would think would rate a mention being a sweet, innocent kid and all that Sansa would prefer to marry instead of Joffrey, but Tyrion. Why? Because he was kind to her, and it meant a lot to her.

Also, your statement that the only Lannister Book Sansa speaks favourably of is Tommen is incorrect: "You were kind to me. I remember." And she does remember, through their "mockery of a marriage," even through AFFC when she has every reason to forget that Tyrion ever existed, even when she believes Tyrion has been put to death.

 

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Kneeling during the wedding aside

Book Sansa knelt to kiss Tyrion when she felt bad about his humiliation over the cloak business. If Book Tyrion had politely asked Sansa to kneel as TV Tyrion did instead of yanking on her dress, she might have yielded sooner just like TV Sansa did. It's not the huge deviation from the books fans seem to think it is, so I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.

 

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So while Book!Sansa might have ackowledged Tyrion's virtues (and it still didn't make her warm up to him)

It didn't make her want to be married to him, but it did make her think of him as kind. 

 

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The show messes Sansa-Tyrion dynamics big time.

I think the chumminess before they found out about the RW was done to heighten the contrast. In the books, they went from strained and awkward silence to...strained and awkward silence. 

The only significant difference I noted in their dynamic was that in 4x02, they seemed to be getting along a lot better than at the Purple Wedding in the books: talking during the wedding ceremony, Tyrion comforting Sansa during the reenactment of Robb's death, Sansa picking up the cup to give to Tyrion so he wouldn't have to crawl to fetch it, etc. I assume it was just to put a nice bow on the end of their relationship, since it's unlikely they'll ever see each other again in the show.

Edited by Newstar

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

It absolutely was forced but then this show.... She agreed to marry a Bolton, I would not put anything past them but it does seem the Hound is getting cleaned up and I cannot think of anyone he would do so for other than Sansa.

Yep.

And there was a whole cycle with that story.

1. Tyrion told Sansa he wouldn't send her home until Robb bent the knee

2. She wouldn't bend the knee at the forced wedding

3. He thinks "damn you" Sansa for not bending the knee to spare HIS feelings

Here's Tyrion damning Sansa:

You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?

The author also revisits this in Mercy:

  Hide contents

1. The dwarf (standing in for Tyrion) says we belong together

2. Arya (standing in for Sansa) says only when I'm on my knees

3. Then she rises to tower above him

It's about bending the knee. And Sansa wouldn't do it, that was her act of defiance.

There's a story with another man, where his cloak and his kiss are prominent. Sandor. This was a nice scene on the show, where he paralleled La Belle et la Bete (like he does in the books, too). And she dreams of Sandor in her marriage bed instead, right after this:

The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane.

And there's a bunch more.

Edited by Le Cygne

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28 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yep.

And there was a whole cycle with that story.

1. Tyrion told Sansa he wouldn't send her home until Robb bent the knee

2. She wouldn't bend the knee at the forced wedding

3. He thinks "damn you" Sansa for not bending the knee to spare HIS feelings

Here's Tyrion damning Sansa:

You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?

The author also revisits this in Mercy:

  Reveal hidden contents

1. The dwarf (standing in for Tyrion) says we belong together

2. Arya (standing in for Sansa) says only when I'm on my knees

3. Then she rises to tower above him

It's about bending the knee. And Sansa wouldn't do it, that was her act of defiance.

There's a story with another man, where his cloak and his kiss are prominent. This was a nice moment on the show, where he paralleled La Belle et la Bete. And she dreams of him in her marriage bed, right after this:

The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane.

And there's a bunch more.

The Imp is still proud of being a Lannister and this is the case in the books, him smarting off to Illyrio. He thinks he is a little lion. "My Giant of Lannister" still cracks me up. He is also a traitor to the real King, Stannis and he suspected when Bran fell as he was trolling his sibblings that it may be interesting to hear what he has to say if he wakes up. He knew and said so before the Blackwater. He knew they were incest bastards. He did what he did out his own greed, he wanted Casterly Rock and when he was told he would absolutely not ever get it, he wed Sansa to get Winterfell where he would have spared her the sight of him and let Lancel marry her. Either way, it was all forced on Sansa. She just wanted to go home if she could, however, it is clear, when it comes to men, the Hound is the one she fantasized about and the one she wants. Not the Imp, the Pimp, the Gimp or a Wimp, she wants a Hound.

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Also, remember that the Imp was worried that if any real harm came to Sansa while they knew Jaime was still a prisoner of the Starks was on Tyrion's mind. He also knew what the Starks did not know for sure and that was her sister Arya was nowhere to be found so Sansa's person = Jaime's person.

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