Tom Bombadils

[ErasmusF]

I get a little discouraged reading the show forum where it seems like some people expect all of the issues and factions the story deals with will be revealed and it will all be wrapped up in a tidy little bow. I expect there will be many mysteries when the story is done. I think of these like Tolkien's Tom Bombadil. He defies understanding of even the most knowledgeable of the characters (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel). He's just a bit of a mystery. We don't know if he's all-powerful, or just a relic of a bygone era. 

So what are your picks for the unsolved mysteries of the series? 

Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Jaqen H'gar and The Faceless Men - we will never know how connected they are to precipitous events in Westeros, whether they were targeting Arya to learn their ways, or whether they are playing some long game dealing with the Others.  

2. fAegon - for some reason I don't think his authenticity will ever be proven or disproven. 

3. Dark Sister - where did this sword go? 

4. Septa Lemore - I don't think we'll ever find out who she really is, if she's Wenda or Ashara as some theories point out. 

5. The Doom of Valaryia and why everyone disappears there. If Euron was ever really there, he has no insight. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I believe that Howland would had been the ASOIAF Bombandil. 

12 minutes ago, ErasmusF said:

4. Septa Lemore - I don't think we'll ever find out who she really is, if she's Wenda or Ashara as some theories point out. 

I will never understand why people keep saying Ashara when she is obviously not Ashara.

[Puppy Stark]

I tend to agree. There are a lot of stuff that just seem too peripheral to really matter plot-wise, even if they hint on a bigger mythos surrounding it. I'm surely not really hoping for a whole explanation of the Faceless Men mythos, for example, especially if the book's storyline for Arya end up paying off like the show's. I just disagree with fAegon. If it's true that he's a fake, that's bound to be mentioned at some point, as it will actually impact the one of the main storyline of the series. If he just dies without his legitimacy ever being mentioned, we can basically assume he was the true Aegon for all that matters.

[Alan of Rosby]

52 minutes ago, ErasmusF said:

I get a little discouraged reading the show forum where it seems like some people expect all of the issues and factions the story deals with will be revealed and it will all be wrapped up in a tidy little bow. I expect there will be many mysteries when the story is done. I think of these like Tolkien's Tom Bombadil. He defies understanding of even the most knowledgeable of the characters (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel). He's just a bit of a mystery. We don't know if he's all-powerful, or just a relic of a bygone era. 

So what are your picks for the unsolved mysteries of the series? 

Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Jaqen H'gar and The Faceless Men - we will never know how connected they are to precipitous events in Westeros, whether they were targeting Arya to learn their ways, or whether they are playing some long game dealing with the Others.  

2. fAegon - for some reason I don't think his authenticity will ever be proven or disproven. 

3. Dark Sister - where did this sword go? 

4. Septa Lemore - I don't think we'll ever find out who she really is, if she's Wenda or Ashara as some theories point out. 

5. The Doom of Valaryia and why everyone disappears there. If Euron was ever really there, he has no insight. 

GRR Martin was a successful television and Hollywood writer for several years, so he knows the wrtier's principle of parsimony, keep it short, sweet and to the point. But he is a sci-fi and fantasy writer at heart, so he tends to waffle on about the background and peripheral mythology and geography and institutions like the Faceless Men that have no bearing on the main plot. I sometimes think he made Essos expressly for this purpose. 

So in short, yes I agree he has introduced a load of plot threads, characters and places that were not explained and will never be explained because after A Dream of Spring is finished that will be the end of it as far as GRR is concerned, aside from Dunk and Egg.  Maybe another writer will rise up to the challenge. Who knows? 

 

1. Agree. But I'm not that upset about it, I think their enigmatic nature made them more interesting.

2. Why not?

3. Yes, but in fairness that was relatively obscure wasn't it?

4. Again, this is fairly obscure.

5. This is the one I think should really be followed up on. The Targaryens were Valyrian, I think this is an important piece of information.

[ErasmusF]

1 hour ago, Alan of Rosby said:

GRR Martin was a successful television and Hollywood writer for several years, so he knows the wrtier's principle of parsimony, keep it short, sweet and to the point. But he is a sci-fi and fantasy writer at heart, so he tends to waffle on about the background and peripheral mythology and geography and institutions like the Faceless Men that have no bearing on the main plot. I sometimes think he made Essos expressly for this purpose. 

So in short, yes I agree he has introduced a load of plot threads, characters and places that were not explained and will never be explained because after A Dream of Spring is finished that will be the end of it as far as GRR is concerned, aside from Dunk and Egg.  Maybe another writer will rise up to the challenge. Who knows? 

 

1. Agree. But I'm not that upset about it, I think their enigmatic nature made them more interesting.

2. Why not?

3. Yes, but in fairness that was relatively obscure wasn't it?

4. Again, this is fairly obscure.

5. This is the one I think should really be followed up on. The Targaryens were Valyrian, I think this is an important piece of information.

Your points about obscure issues are exactly what I am saying. Here and on reddit there are tons of theories about these characters and people get really excited as if it's all connected in some way. That's what a Tom Bombadil is - a diversion that adds some mystery, gets a lot of fan theories going, and will ultimately never be fully explained in its relevance to the story. 

I am not upset about any of them. For the most part, I think GRRM did this intentionally. People always go on about how he subverts tropes - well yes, but his story has to go somewhere so don't expect Jon to be digging ditches or Dany to be vigorously devising taxation schemes to set the Iron Throne back on a responsible fiscal trajectory at the end of the story. 

I think these characters' stories are intentionally going to be dropped at the end of the book, so the reader is forced to say "Yeah but why did the Doom really happen?" And if so it's genius. His story just stands to benefit from fanfic conversations. 

[house of dayne]

Personally i feel jon snow is the bombadil..i wouldnt be surprised if the nature of his birth is never explicitely explained..

[MinotaurWarrior]

There's a substantial difference between a Tom Bambadil - something that just makes no sense, doesn't fit in, and exists mostly independent from every other force in the setting - and the sort of mysteries I expect we'll be left with. George has really emphasized verisimilitude above parsimony in this story, so I expect to end the series with a lot of the same questions I have about events that happened in my own life, or events I've read about in history. Was King Edward II gay, and did he end his days living under a false name as a monk in the Holy Roman Empire? What really happened to Ashara, Tysha, and Gerion?

The big difference is that I don't think anything in this series is meant to be completely inexplicable. You can reason and ponder and reach valid conclusions about everything going on, because there's a preternatural dimension, but no truly supernatural dimension. Everything happens because of reasons internal to the world the characters inhabit.

2 hours ago, ErasmusF said:

And if so it's genius. His story just stands to benefit from fanfic conversations. 

GRRM is staunchly anti-fanfic, so I have to disagree with you there.

[Ssangkall]

If these questions weren't going to be answered in the future books, wouldn't he answer these questions to fans then when they asked?

[Dorian Martell]

5 hours ago, ErasmusF said:

1. Jaqen H'gar and The Faceless Men - we will never know how connected they are to precipitous events in Westeros, whether they were targeting Arya to learn their ways, or whether they are playing some long game dealing with the Others.  

2. fAegon - for some reason I don't think his authenticity will ever be proven or disproven. 

3. Dark Sister - where did this sword go? 

4. Septa Lemore - I don't think we'll ever find out who she really is, if she's Wenda or Ashara as some theories point out. 

5. The Doom of Valaryia and why everyone disappears there. If Euron was ever really there, he has no insight. 

1: The FM have no inkling or connection to the others. If they do it is extremely recent by way of the slave ship full of wildlings that had to dock in Bravos. They have other plans in motion already, plus their regualr job
2: That is totally George's style. I am sure he will die a terrible death, possibly via a wildfire burning of kings landing 
3: Locked away in the red keep somewhere, or in posession of Varys to give to (f)Aegon 
4: We may get a hint, but nothing major 
5: We will learn more from an Arya chapter 

[Dorian Martell]

20 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

GRRM is staunchly anti-fanfic, so I have to disagree with you there.

This

3 hours ago, ErasmusF said:

His story just stands to benefit from fanfic conversations. 

Fan fic is why we have so many baseless unthoughout horrible stories. People start writing their own story, post it here and expect everyone to cheer them on.

[Orphalesion]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 

I will never understand why people keep saying Ashara when she is obviously not Ashara.

because people have to force connections everywhere because it makes the whole story nicely implausible and artificial, like a soap opera.

Same with the Fan Wank that Mellisandre, a woman from the other side of the world "has to be" Bloodraven's spawn.

[MinotaurWarrior]

48 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Fan fic is why we have so many baseless unthoughout horrible stories. People start writing their own story, post it here and expect everyone to cheer them on.

Assuming you're talking about "theory" threads, I think the bigger cause there are the publishing delays. You can only stare at a popcorn ceiling for so long before losing sight of the chaos for the densely packed illusory images.

[Fox of House McCloud]

6 hours ago, ErasmusF said:

I get a little discouraged reading the show forum where it seems like some people expect all of the issues and factions the story deals with will be revealed and it will all be wrapped up in a tidy little bow. I expect there will be many mysteries when the story is done. I think of these like Tolkien's Tom Bombadil. He defies understanding of even the most knowledgeable of the characters (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel). He's just a bit of a mystery. We don't know if he's all-powerful, or just a relic of a bygone era. 

So what are your picks for the unsolved mysteries of the series? 

Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Jaqen H'gar and The Faceless Men - we will never know how connected they are to precipitous events in Westeros, whether they were targeting Arya to learn their ways, or whether they are playing some long game dealing with the Others.  

2. fAegon - for some reason I don't think his authenticity will ever be proven or disproven. 

3. Dark Sister - where did this sword go? 

4. Septa Lemore - I don't think we'll ever find out who she really is, if she's Wenda or Ashara as some theories point out. 

5. The Doom of Valaryia and why everyone disappears there. If Euron was ever really there, he has no insight. 

Unsolved mysteries can be more important to a story than the answers behind them. Take Asshai by the Shadow, for instance - as much as I want to know all the fascinating details about it, it would cripple the purpose and intrigue that Asshai has. For that reason, I hope we never really learn too much about it (let alone visit is, like some people want to happen).

1. I think we've been given all the exposition we need for the FM. Agree on your sentiments regarding Arya and the Others.

2. At the end of the day, Aegon's campaign and potential rule will rely on his military success, not his parents. At most, there are a handful (Varys, Illyrio, and anyone else who might have needed to know, I suppose) of people who would know if he was a Blackfyre. Aegon, JonCon, and the Golden Company all believe in his legitimacy. He bears the Targaryen banner, and he fights for his birthright. To the people of Westeros, the only difference between him and Dany are Dany's dragons (and she would've been just as much of a Targaryen without them). So, I agree that his authenticity will never really be proven, but mostly because it won't have an effect on his plotline.

3. One of a large group of established weapons I doubt we'll ever see. I wouldn't be surprised by a few of these legendary weapons turning up, but I think it'll only happen if it makes a lot of sense, and not just as fan service.

4. Agreed, and there's a good chance she isn't anyone of note anyways.

5. The Doom is another event that really needs no further explanation. It's consequences are much more important than it's causes.

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Assuming you're talking about "theory" threads, I think the bigger cause there are the publishing delays. You can only stare at a popcorn ceiling for so long before losing sight of the chaos for the densely packed illusory images.

that is the trigger yes 

[Señor de la Tormenta]

The isle of faces and the order of green men

[Jon's Queen Consort]

14 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

because people have to force connections everywhere because it makes the whole story nicely implausible and artificial, like a soap opera.

I have seriously heared that Ashara's violet eyes have either fade because she isn't so young anymore, it doesn't matter that Ashara would had been in her mid 30s, or that her eyes were not that special. 

[YOVMO]

Good post. The general idea that everything ties up into a neat little package is really infuriating to me. The fact that it is a little sloppy is why it parallels life so well. I wouldn't venture to guess which threads will be closed and which will remain open, but of course the world is incredibly complex.

The chapters are, imo brilliantly, from character POV. From chapter 1 of AGOT we should have known we would never get a God's eye view. That was the whole freaking point.

 

The people who are looking for a tidy end are the people who don't understand how wonderful the three dimensional world here is and just want tits and dragons. It is an argument that will play itself out over and over again with no resolutions. Best bet it to ignore.

[Neolaina]

21 hours ago, ErasmusF said:

So what are your picks for the unsolved mysteries of the series? 

Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Jaqen H'gar and The Faceless Men - we will never know how connected they are to precipitous events in Westeros, whether they were targeting Arya to learn their ways, or whether they are playing some long game dealing with the Others.  

2. fAegon - for some reason I don't think his authenticity will ever be proven or disproven. 

3. Dark Sister - where did this sword go? 

4. Septa Lemore - I don't think we'll ever find out who she really is, if she's Wenda or Ashara as some theories point out. 

5. The Doom of Valaryia and why everyone disappears there. If Euron was ever really there, he has no insight. 

You had me at Tom Bombadil.

Out of the five you've picked, and across the board you're probably right, the only thing in your list that makes me wonder is Dark Sister. If it's with Brynden, and if Bran hightails it out of the North, and if Brynden bestows it upon Bran/Meera/Jojen/Hodor to bring it south (we still don't quite know how that'll play out, exactly.), and if it moves with them southward, it could feasibly end up in Jon Snow's hands. Not that he needs more Valyrian steel. But that's a bushel of ifs. I'm not even that optimistic.

The Faceless Men, by definition, are mysterious. And I'd think the only inner look we'd be getting is from Arya. Ditto the Maesters and Sam.

As for Lemore, after re-reading DwD, I am left wondering if there's something more to her, but it doesn't seem a mystery that needs solving.

Doom of Valyria's a given, I'd say.

Whether or not Aegon is Aegon, meh. I roll with it as though he is Aegon. More a personal, narrative choice, than anything else.

======

I'd go with, in addition to what you've said:

1) Dark Sister, again, because curiosity.

2) The truth of the heroes from the Age of Heroes (many of them are conflated, all of them seem to stem from Garth Greenhands, Brandon the Builder's hand is seen across the kingdoms, etc, etc, etc.)

3) The Gods being anything more than a manifestation of the origin of each type of magic present, and that being expanded upon. (R'hllor's not real as a being, nor the Old Gods, again as beings, Drowned God, etc, etc.)  We already know this won't be expanded upon, so perhaps I'm cheating here.

4) And as much as I want to explore it, the Isle of Faces/Green Men, as previously stated.

5) Actively discovering that the histories as recorded are a bunch of shit, and having a new, more accurate history surface. More curiosity about the history itself than this being an element that would be important for the story.

[ErasmusF]

Isle of Faces is a good one. 

[ErasmusF]

18 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

There's a substantial difference between a Tom Bambadil - something that just makes no sense, doesn't fit in, and exists mostly independent from every other force in the setting - and the sort of mysteries I expect we'll be left with. George has really emphasized verisimilitude above parsimony in this story, so I expect to end the series with a lot of the same questions I have about events that happened in my own life, or events I've read about in history. Was King Edward II gay, and did he end his days living under a false name as a monk in the Holy Roman Empire? What really happened to Ashara, Tysha, and Gerion?

The big difference is that I don't think anything in this series is meant to be completely inexplicable. You can reason and ponder and reach valid conclusions about everything going on, because there's a preternatural dimension, but no truly supernatural dimension. Everything happens because of reasons internal to the world the characters inhabit.

GRRM is staunchly anti-fanfic, so I have to disagree with you there.

I guess I have a different interpretation of whether Tom Bombadil fits into LOTR. IMO he very clearly represents the notion that our most sincerely held struggles are just a part of a world that goes on without us. At the Council of Elrond, they suggest giving the One Ring to TB, and they say "nah, he's probably just lose it." That's funny. 

And I think GRRM has built in some of those concepts as well - the mysteries of the oily black stones, for example. We'll never know that one, I don't think. 

The question I am asking is which of these mysteries, especially the ones that people seem to draw into so many tinfoil theories (the FM, Doom, various missing swords, various missing people), which of these are key to the story, which are red herrings, and which are just going to be mysteries?