About lost heirs.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't mean literally heirs more like "family members". 

 

Reading the family trees in TWOIAF we see that there are many characters that are named but *lost* and we don’t know who they are married, if they were married, and if they had any children.

Stark lost heirs;

Lysara Karstark and Artos had two sons Brandon and Benjen who had heirs but we don’t know who they married or who their descendants are. Could they had married a Lady of her own right and their ancestors be some of the people we see today?

Also there are way too many Starks who were named but we don’t know what happened to them which is normal since children died all the time, but I think that there are way too many *lost* Starks.

Bennard and Margaret Karstark: Benjen, Brandon and Elric

Cregan+ Black Aly; Sarra, Alys, Raya and Mariah

Cregan and Lynara; Lyanna      

Serena and Edric: Cregard and Torrhen

Brandon and Alys Karstark; Arsa

Brandon and Wylla Fenn; Lonnel (Lonny) (I find it awesome that the only Stark bastard who is mentioned is by a crannogman named Wylla)

Beron and Lorra Royce; Errold, Alysanne and Berena

Willam and Lyanne Glover

Brandon (probably the one who had Old Nan as his wet nurse and died young)

 

Targ lost heirs;

Trueborn;

Rhaena and Aegon; Aerea and Rhaella

Alyssa and Baelon; Aegon

Maekar and Dyanna Dayne; Daella and Rhae

Daenora and Aerion; Maegor, tho I believe in BrightFyre theory.

Daeron and Kierra of Tyrosh; Vaella

Targaryen bastards;

Aegon II and a girl on the Street of Silk; a son

Aegon II and one of his mother's servants; a daughter

Aegon IV and Melissa Blackwood; Mya and Gwenys

Aegon IV and Bellegere Otherys the Black Pearl of Braavos; Bellenora Black Pearl of Braavos, Balerion and Narha. Though their paternity is doubtful.

Aemond’s bastard with Alys Rivers

Possible Aerion’s bastards in Essos.

 

Do you think that this happens because of the high mortality rate in Westeros or there is anything else behind it?

Do you think that any of them will have a role to play in the future of ASOIAF or a future book like the She wolves of Winterfell?

[Shireen Purratheon]

What's interesting is that if we follow a purely legal line of succession based on a couple assumptions, Daella's line (and then Rhae's line) are next in line for the throne after Shireen. The first assumption is that Robert's claim comes from Rhaelle Targaryen, establishing the precedent that claim can in fact pass through the female line at this point in history. Prince Duncan the Small gave up his claim, and thus any hypothetical children of Jenny are passed over. Aerys the Mad's line are presumably attainted in order for the claim to pass to Rhaelle's line.

Then Aerion's son Maegor was passed over, negating his hypothetical descendants. Ditto Daeron's daughter Vaella. The claim of Jaeherys' line and Rhaelle's line comes from Aegon the Unlikely, but all descendants of those lines are accounted for. Next comes older daughter Daella, then her sister Rhae.

If we set aside Tommen and Myrcella as bastards, that gives us this line of succession:

1. Stannis Baratheon
2. Shireen Baratheon
3. Daella's primogeniture
4. Rhae's primogeniture
5. Doran Martell (Assuming he is a descendant of Maron and Daenerys)

All this means nothing, but it gives me reason to believe who Daella and Rhae married will matter, or at least come up, at some point along the way.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

STARKS: Lynara may be say a granddaughter of Bennard & Margaret. The MUSH has Mariah as having married a Seth Blackwood, the heir of Benjicot who himself the MUSH has having married the youngest of Lord Borros Baratheon's daughters. Many of the Stark males likely also joined the NW &/or died in/from battle (besides the ones we know like Rickon, Beron & William) - after all, the Starks & the North had Ironborn, wildlings & Skagosi to deal with at times during this period. There also may be one or two or a few who died in other conflicts like Dance as part of the Winter Wolves (or perhaps say even Elric as a third son & cousin to the lord; was one of those Northmen who stayed in the Riverlands to marry widow, & presuming she was noble, any children of theirs took her House name), the Conquest of Dorne or even Blackfyre Rebellion/s.

Certainly some of it would be due to things like infant/childhood mortality, especially in the harsh North - something that could very well take more adults, even in comparatively warm, secure & clean Winterfell. Also yes, some will be saved for the future, i.e. "She-Wolves". Also, the Stark family tree is quite crowded so some of both the male & female-lines that did have offspring wouldn't have been included simply for room - some distant branches may still exist in the North. Serena & Edric children are especially interesting because they would've been the main line (with Serena older than Sansa & Sansa & Jonnel seemingly having no children, with Edric as his heir). Something seemingly happened to Cregard & Torrhen, but it could very well be that they were effectively usurped by uncle Barthogan (Edric presumably having already passed & then possibly by the other uncle Brandon) with that as the true start of the succession crisis with Cregan's death. Arrana & Aregelle should have been Cregard & Torrhen's heirs (assuming they had no issue) by Andal inheritance, with any of their Umber & Cerwyn children able to just be named Stark instead to claim Winterfell (happened in other cases with southron Houses).

I believe that the First Men (& royal Andal dynasties for tradition sake to appease their FM vassals) practiced succession akin to that of the Targs/Salic Law where females & their lines are skipped over (no matter seniority) if there are male male-line heir/s; & that the Starks continued to do so (especially as part of their general isolation even during the Targaryen era). Even if there was any affection there (the MUSH does have them all around the same age after all, which makes sense with Cregan married to Black Aly in the meantime), it seems like Serena & Sansa were married to Edric & Jonnel to bind their claims so the males could inherit Cregan no problems (with other Northern vassals likely practicing the same male-only inheritance not wanting to be ruled by a woman). Also especially as I believe Cregan dueled Aemon during Baelor's reign over the king's refusal to free one of his sisters from the Maidenvault for one of his sons to complete the Pact of Ice & Fire (Cregan of course having chosen Aly instead of Baela & the possibly still unwed Rhaena following the Dance, & no Targ princess a/v at the time for Rickon when he was old enough to marry). Viserys, looking to avoid a possible conflict &/or secession of the North, & appeasing Baelor with a holy (especially against an "ungodly" Northerner) trial by combat; allowed Cregan to sort it out martially with his own son to first blood (like Oberyn vs Lord Yronwood, expect you know, no poison). With Aemon having won (though he praised Cregan as the finest foe he ever faced), the Pact was dissolved, though I could see one of Viserys' revisions to Jaehaerys I's code of laws being Andal inheritance extending to the North as well - hence explaining Alys Karstark's situation, but the overlooking of at least Arrana & Aregelle done after his death (Aegon IV not giving two shits about any woman unless he bedded them & even then, & Daeron II having plenty of his own problems inherited from his father, including Daemon & Aegor).

TARGS: I think Aerea &/or Rhalla are where the nine lesser claimants of the Great Council of 101 came from (plus part-wise why Jaehaerys overlooked Rhaenys in favour of Baelon so as to consolidate his own descendants' hold on the IT as his nieces would come before him via normal Andal inheritance). Aerea at least likely survived Maegor as she was named by him only a year before his death as his heir no less. There's even mention in The World of Ice & Fire straight after Rhaena's escape from Maegor on her dragon that two of the KG deserted him as well for Jaehaerys - I'm guessing they helped Rhaena & escaped with the girl/s. I feel like Rhaena herself, perhaps the only other Targ where these claimants could've come from, had Corlys Velaryon (AFAIK, first mentioned here) with Lord Daemon's son (Corlys succeeded his grandsire, almost certainly Daemon) as someone she married for love &/or a binding/rewarding marriage similar to that of Jaehaerys' 1st Hand, Robar Baratheon, & his mother, Alyssa Velaryon (probably even arranged by her as Queen Regent until 50AC & perhaps also behind the later Aemon-Jocelyn match) as Daemon had been one of the first (after Robar) to declare for Jaehaerys over Maegor & "many great lords followed him" (perhaps even the Tullys & Lannisters who we know also did). Rhaena, being a dragonrider, as Corlys' mother would also help to explain his son Addam (all but confirmed instead of Laenor imo) being able to bond with & ride Seasmoke too. Anyway, & the Velaryon camp consolidated their efforts solely into Laenor at the GC instead of Corlys, a younger sibling of his, or Rhaenys also. As the Targ camp may have done solely with Viserys instead of his mother Alyssa if she were still alive.

I'd say Alyssa & Baelon's Aegon either died young or is Apegon, though I did crackpotingly consider once that he may have actually been Mushroom! Daella or Rhae are the leading candidates to be both an ancestor of Brienne & how she is a descendant of Dunk. Of course we know from Aemon that both of them married & had children, so the details of which are going to be revealed in future D&E novella/s &/or Fire & Blood. As to who the non-Tarth &/or Dunk sister married is anyone guess, though Maekar was most like behind it. Then again, as Egg was likely betrothed to Daella as a boy (& Rhae wanted him to marry her instead) & how Maekar wanted his children to be upstanding members of House Targaryen (especially not overshadowed by their cousins like he had been with his brother/s), it's weird in a way that traditionalist Maekar (just look at the names of kids) didn't marry one of them to Aerion (Kiera having been married to Daeron to preserve that Tyrosh alliance after Valarr's death). Yes, it seems (though it may have been a love match, silly choice girl, or something) he married Daenora to Aerion, but still; it's not like she had any kind of claim that he was binding to Aerion. Mayhaps both Daella & Rhae married for (or the result of, say if one became pregnant with Dunk's bastard & quickly married off to an old, heirless Lord Tarth) love & so weren't a/v for Aerion.

There's also the possibility that Daenora outlived Aerion & perhaps remarried herself, especially if still in her 20s (possibly even late teens) as of Egg becoming king. I like a Bitterbrightfyre combo for Aegon personally, but it may be that Maegor died young or perhaps even joined the KG - that would be especially interesting, particularly if Glendon Flowers ended up doing so with Dunk too! Vaella is hard one to pick - I'd guess she died young or Egg may have not even sought to make a marriage for her given her "simple-minded" state, mayhaps even remembering the fates of the other Targ princesses said to have been simple - Gael & Jaehaera. Also not using Vaella as a marriage pawn adds that extra importance that he had for his own children as such.

Aegon II's bastards likely went in obscurity one way or another (only Gaemon Palehair known to have been kept at court following the Dance), though I suppose the son could be (extremely) long odds as one of those Daeron the Daring pretenders from Aegon III's reign. I'd love to know more about Mya & Gwenys - did either marry back into the Blackwoods? A Bracken?! A Blackfyre (even just a supporter)?! If Elaena & Alyn's kids didn't get their twincest on (unlikely as it may have been mentioned already, the Targs may have been the only ones to get away with the sibling love as royals & Elaena may not have approved of such & she was effectively on Daeron II's Small Council), my best guess (assuming living heathily enough to adulthood of course) would be that one married Jon Waters (both bastards, of an age & likely raised at court) & possibly the other married Viserys Plumm or Robin Penrose. Hopefully again we will find out in D&E.

Well yes, Bellanora became the famous courtesan known as the Black Pearl of Braavos who the current & her mother descend from, so something of a dynasty was made there! Mayhaps Narha or Balerion went into the other family business of pirating. As for Alys Rivers' bastard with Aemond, I like the theory that child is the GoHH (or an ancestor) given Alys' own magical abilities & possibly say Blackwood blood (magical after all & her name is very similar to Black Aly, Alysanne, with them being roughly the same age). As to Aerion's possible bastards in Essos, Blackfyre connections would be interesting, especially if he was a Blackfyre double agent for a time.

Agreed, Shireen Purratheon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I didn't meant literally heirs more like "family members". 

[YOVMO]

12 hours ago, Shireen Purratheon said:

What's interesting is that if we follow a purely legal line of succession based on a couple assumptions, Daella's line (and then Rhae's line) are next in line for the throne after Shireen. The first assumption is that Robert's claim comes from Rhaelle Targaryen, establishing the precedent that claim can in fact pass through the female line at this point in history. Prince Duncan the Small gave up his claim, and thus any hypothetical children of Jenny are passed over. Aerys the Mad's line are presumably attainted in order for the claim to pass to Rhaelle's line.

Then Aerion's son Maegor was passed over, negating his hypothetical descendants. Ditto Daeron's daughter Vaella. The claim of Jaeherys' line and Rhaelle's line comes from Aegon the Unlikely, but all descendants of those lines are accounted for. Next comes older daughter Daella, then her sister Rhae.

If we set aside Tommen and Myrcella as bastards, that gives us this line of succession:

1. Stannis Baratheon
2. Shireen Baratheon
3. Daella's primogeniture
4. Rhae's primogeniture
5. Doran Martell (Assuming he is a descendant of Maron and Daenerys)

All this means nothing, but it gives me reason to believe who Daella and Rhae married will matter, or at least come up, at some point along the way.

really excellent post.

 

I may be mistaken because of multiple names, but am pretty sure that number three, Daella, married Lord Rodrik Arryn. The two of them gave birth to Lady Aemma Arryn who wound up marrying Viserys I Targaryen. Their only child together was Rhaenyra Targaryen. She had three sons with Laenot Velaryon who died in the Dance of Dragons and two younger sons with Daemon Targaryen the elder being Aegon III who had two sons who died and ended that line and a younger son Viserys II who married a woman named Larra from Lys. Their first son was Aegon IV who legitimized his bastards causing all that trouble. THey had two other children Prince Aemon and Princess Naerys who Larra apparently took back to lys. So, assuming they had children, there are some Targaryen's of Daella's line over in Lys (unless they moved.)

Rhae is said to have married and have had children, but I can't find anything saying to whom or if those children lived or where that line is now.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

They had two other children Prince Aemon and Princess Naerys who Larra apparently took back to Lys. So, assuming they had children, there are some Targaryen's of Daella's line over in Lys (unless they moved.)

Naerys was married to her brother Aegon by their father, Viserys, (likely to emphasise their "Targaryeness" given Larra's foreignness, which she & her family were likely ridiculed for, at least to a point) having Daeron (future II) & Daenerys (married Maron Martell). And Aemon joined the KG becoming known as the Dragonknight. Larra moved back to Lys on her own & I'd guess at least partially due to the trouble the Rogare family (her brothers specifically) had landed in (& the nature of the KL court):

Quote

She was also a woman who never felt a part of the court and was never truly happy there. Yet she gave him three children before she at last returned to her native Lys ...

In the end, it was Larra Rogare and her wealthy, ambitious family who helped break the power of the regents and, almost certainly, that of Lord Peake. It was an inadvertent role they played, however, caught up as they were in the Lyseni Spring. This was a time when the Rogare Bank waxed greater than the Iron Bank, and so fell prey to the plots to control the king; they were blamed for many more acts than they were actually guilty of ...

Her father, Lysandro Rogare, was the head of a wealthy banking family whose power waxed even greater following the alliance to the Targaryens. Lysandro assumed the style of First Magister for Life, and men spoke of him as Lysandro the Magnificent. But he and his brother Drazenko, the Prince Consort of Dorne, died within a day of one another, beginning the precipitous fall of the Rogares both in Lys and the Seven Kingdoms.

Lysandro's heir, Lysaro, spent vast sums in pursuit of power and fell afoul of the other magisters, even as his siblings became embroiled in plots to control the Iron Throne. After his fall, Lysaro Rogare was scourged to death at the Temple of Trade by those he had wronged. His siblings received less fatal punishments, and one among them—Moredo Rogare, the soldier who carried the Valyrian sword Truth—eventually led an army against Lys. (The World of Ice & Fire)

The Daella Shireen Purratheon is referring to is Egg & Rhae's sister.

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Rhae is said to have married and have had children, but I can't find anything saying to whom or if those children lived or where that line is now.

As did Daella. True there are no details for either, but it's likely one is both the ancestor of Brienne & how she is descended from Dunk (see my first comment).

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Naerys was married to her brother Aegon by their father, Viserys, (likely to emphasise their "Targaryeness" given Larra's foreignness, which she & her family were likely ridiculed for, at least to a point) having Daeron (future II) & Daenerys (married Maron Martell). And Aemon joined the KG becoming known as the Dragonknight. Larra moved back to Lys on her own & I'd guess at least partially due to the trouble the Rogare family (her brothers specifically) had landed in (& the nature of the KL court):

Good info. Thanks!

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

As did Daella. True there are no details for either, but it's likely one is both the ancestor of Brienne & how she is descended from Dunk (see my first comment).

This makes total sense.

Does this mean that Selwyn somehow falls into the line of succession?

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

Technically yes, Selwyn has a (albeit a weak one compared to Dany & Aegon, well who he thinks he is anyway) claim as per the Targaryen succession, though I would be surprised if it came up in any practical sense. Interestingly:

1. Though I think incredibly unlikely, such lineage could perhaps have Brienne in the running as a legitimate wielder of Dawn considering Maekar's wife, Dyanna Dayne. Also, interesting that the ruler of Tarth is called the Evenstar - kudos to @LmL for that connection.
2. Spoiler

   Selwyn is almost certainly one of the highborn hostages of the GC on the way/at Storm's End as Tarth was one of the places they took.

    

[HouseFossoway]

I would hope that if GRRM ever finishes the Dunk and Egg trilogy, then we'd learn who Rhae and Daella married

[YOVMO]

The Heir Club For Men...HAR!

[YOVMO]

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Technically yes, Selwyn has a (albeit a weak one compared to Dany & Aegon, well who he thinks he is anyway) claim as per the Targaryen succession, though I would be surprised if it came up in any practical sense. Interestingly:

Assuming a dead dany and a fake aegon (not to debate it...just for the sake of argument) that claim does get a lot stronger and explains his very queer actions during the war of the 5 kings.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Brienne in the running as a legitimate wielder of Dawn considering Maekar's wife, Dyanna Dayne. Also, interesting that the ruler of Tarth is called the Evenstar 

while logically possible, I just don't see it happening.

 

Didn't read the spoiler because I've been avoiding the pre-release chapters. Thank you for using spoiler tool

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

On 6/29/2016 at 3:12 AM, HouseFossoway said:

I would hope that if GRRM ever finishes the Dunk and Egg trilogy, then we'd learn who Rhae and Daella married

Even if GRRM never finishes D&E, or at least that far into it (say by the time of the Peake Uprising-GC of 233-Bloodraven to the Wall), I'd be very surprised if we never got eventually some form of Fire & Blood that would detail such. After all, Elio & Linda did a fair portion of TWoIaF, there's hundreds of thousands of words left over from that & GRRM would have a rough idea at the least on future D&E snippets.

On 6/29/2016 at 5:49 AM, YOVMO said:

Assuming a dead dany and a fake aegon (not to debate it...just for the sake of argument) that claim does get a lot stronger and explains his very queer actions during the war of the 5 kings.

Well, though I don't think Aegon's true ancestry will be outright revealed, I do think he will die in the Dance 2.0 anyway - though Dany &/or Tyrion may claim him to be a fake as say a Blackfyre ("mummer's dragon"). I think Dany will outlive Aegon (early ADoS, mayhaps late TWoW if things accelerate more than expected), but I don't think she will survive the end. Selwyn's actions during the Wot5K though: queer how?

On 6/29/2016 at 5:49 AM, YOVMO said:

While logically possible, I just don't see it happening. Didn't read the spoiler because I've been avoiding the pre-release chapters. Thank you for using spoiler tool

Yeah me neither, I just found it a nice connection. And no problems - I'm not 100% on the spoilers policy tbh (seems like D&E, TRP, TPatQ &/or TWoIaF are fair game here in General (ASoIaF)?) being new, but I'm presuming things like show & TWoW (outside of specific posts anyway) should be covered ...

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Even if GRRM never finishes D&E, or at least that far into it (say by the time of the Peake Uprising-GC of 233-Bloodraven to the Wall), I'd be very surprised if we never got eventually some form of Fire & Blood that would detail such. After all, Elio & Linda did a fair portion of TWoIaF, there's hundreds of thousands of words left over from that & GRRM would have a rough idea at the least on future D&E snippets.

Well, though I don't think Aegon's true ancestry will be outright revealed, I do think he will die in the Dance 2.0 anyway - though Dany &/or Tyrion may claim him to be a fake as say a Blackfyre ("mummer's dragon"). I think Dany will outlive Aegon (early ADoS, mayhaps late TWoW if things accelerate more than expected), but I don't think she will survive the end. Selwyn's actions during the Wot5K though: queer how?

Yeah me neither, I just found it a nice connection. And no problems - I'm not 100% on the spoilers policy tbh (seems like D&E, TRP, TPatQ &/or TWoIaF are fair game here in General (ASoIaF)?) being new, but I'm presuming things like show & TWoW (outside of specific posts anyway) should be covered ...

I am not sure if there is official policy but for me I generally regard something that isn't yet available or published (so only twow) as a spoiler. D and E have been out long enough. At this point it's like saying that Kevin Spacey is Kaiser Soze imo

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

Yeah fair enough, cheers.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Something that I noticed, In the Stark family tree we have examples of female members married and had descendants outside of the family ,like Jocelyn and Arrana, and members who we don't know if they married or even if they survived, like Errold, Elric and Torrhen. But we have two examples of male Starks, Artos' and Lysara's sons Brandon and Benjen, that we know that they had issues but we don’t know more about them. Do you think that they might be important later?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 6/27/2016 at 7:46 PM, Shireen Purratheon said:

What's interesting is that if we follow a purely legal line of succession based on a couple assumptions, Daella's line (and then Rhae's line) are next in line for the throne after Shireen. The first assumption is that Robert's claim comes from Rhaelle Targaryen, establishing the precedent that claim can in fact pass through the female line at this point in history. Prince Duncan the Small gave up his claim, and thus any hypothetical children of Jenny are passed over. Aerys the Mad's line are presumably attainted in order for the claim to pass to Rhaelle's line.

Then Aerion's son Maegor was passed over, negating his hypothetical descendants. Ditto Daeron's daughter Vaella. The claim of Jaeherys' line and Rhaelle's line comes from Aegon the Unlikely, but all descendants of those lines are accounted for. Next comes older daughter Daella, then her sister Rhae.

If we set aside Tommen and Myrcella as bastards, that gives us this line of succession:

1. Stannis Baratheon
2. Shireen Baratheon
3. Daella's primogeniture
4. Rhae's primogeniture
5. Doran Martell (Assuming he is a descendant of Maron and Daenerys)

All this means nothing, but it gives me reason to believe who Daella and Rhae married will matter, or at least come up, at some point along the way.

Funny you should mention...

In looking at who could have given birth to the Tattered Prince I found that both Daella and Rhae are possibilities for his mother. The year Tatters was supposedly born (based on his saying he was 23 when offered the position of Prince of Pentos) Daella was 40 and Rhae was anywhere from 30-38.

And since we don't know what happened to them it's also possible that they might have accidentally ended up married to Blackfyre descendants. There's at least one daughter of Daemon whose name is unknown and we have no clue what happened to her. If she married, her descendants would bear her husband's name or any daughters' husbands' names. That much after the fact, would the IT have been keeping track of Blackfyre descendants through the female line? It would be interesting (and funny!) if the next in line for the throne turns out to be from Daemon's line.

[Luddagain]

With regard to the Starks you should also recall both Rodrik and Lynara Ned's mother and Grandad. We  have not heard about their deaths and have no reason to believe that they are dead.

Rodrik was the wandering Wolf remember, so he could be anywhere. Given that people marry young, I am assuming that if alive Ned would now be 37/38, His mother about 56/57, and her dad Rodrik perhaps 77/80. Certainly Rodrik would be very old for the era, but not as old as Walder Frey or Aemon or old Nan.

Another place where you may find missing Starks is in the Company of the Blue Rose.

The third place is over the wall.  I suspect that any Stark who realised that they DID have warging abilities would find living among wildings rather safer than in Westeros.

 

[Luddagain]

Which I might add is why i suspect Lynara disappeared.  I feel  fairly sure that her wolf was the mother of the 6 pups, although it could have been Lyanna's.