Why did the Show discard Robb's will, only to arrive at the same outcome less credibly?

[John Suburbs]

38 minutes ago, messem said:

Winterfell was supposedly built by Brandon the Builder over eight thousand years ago, with the help of giants.

One would assume that it withstands a giant longer than a few seconds. Regardless if the people inside ever fought against a giant. 

The gate is probably new, though. Rams torched the entire place when he took it from Theon, presumably, including the gate. In the book, at least, when Roose arrives in WF, he has the squatters rebuild the gate, stalls, and such, and then he hangs them for squatting.

38 minutes ago, sifth said:

Seems like a pretty poor excuse if you ask me. It's not like there's any real proof that Tyrion and Sansa didn't have sex.

My understanding is that regardless of whether it was consummated, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion would be null and void in the north because  a) she was forced into it, and b ) it was performed under a farcical southron rainbow ceremony.

Her marriage to Rams would be legitimate because it was done under a heart tree, but since Rams is dead, the marriage is over.

So as a widow with no elder male members of her family to decide her fate, Sansa has a number of options: she could either cede Winterfell to Jon or try to become the ruling Lady Stark herself. If it's the former, she could simply remain at Winterfell and wait for King Jon to decide her fate; she could retire to the Dreadfort and live out her days as dowager Lady Bolton; head south where she is recognized as one of several ladies Lannister (although there is the little matter of the Queen Lannister wanting her head for murdering her son), or she could marry, or at least betroth herself, now before Jon's reign has been invested.

If and when she does marry, then she has more options: it could be to a Stark bannerman to raise the family to a higher status (tricky, politically, but sometimes necessary), or to a lord whom both she and Jon need to forge an alliance with -- perhaps even the man she despises most in the world.

[Ruhail]

At some point you have to wonder what the hell is this plot? - David Benioff 2016

[messem]

2 hours ago, Greg B said:

I think I get your drift: You didn't think Wun Wun should have been able to punch through the gate. Ramsay didn't either, so you're not alone. At least you didn't get fed to the hounds.

hu, I lost that battle. I declare you the winner in the trial by arguments.

[David Selig]

3 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I highly doubt that lol. The way they builT up the story was that Ramsay and the folks inside WD were too shocked when Wun Wun broke the gate. They didn't expect that and they thought they were safe for a while. 

Well, they were morons like pretty much everyone in the show. So it doesn't mean much.

[TickTak7]

 I think there's 3 reasons why the show forewent the will. 

1) If Robb Stark's will legitimized Jon as a Stark, what importance would the Tower of Joy reveal have had? None. 

2) Instead of the will, Jon is named King in the North more naturally, and in front of Sansa - there's no doubt they are setting up a Jon-Sansa conflict next season, and I think it started by Jon being named King in front of Sansa. It's almost like everyone except Littlefinger forgot that Sansa was one of the only reasons they won that battle. 

3) In the books, Robb's will, combined with the many other things about Jon, made it an almost foregone conclusion that Jon was coming back from the dead. I wonder if they wanted to take some of those obvious elements away from the show, thus eliminating the will? There's  been a few times where they've very deliberately left out things that represent more blatant foreshadowing - the House of the Undying comes to mind. 

 

[Hodor's Aunt]

20 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

When did the High Septon grant her an annulment, as the only person who can?

The north worships the old gods. The high sparrow has no power there.

[Hodor's Aunt]

20 hours ago, sifth said:

How could Sansa even marry Ramsay with Tyrion still alive? Seriously this has been an issue with me for a while now. I mean sure Sansa getting raped by her husband was sick and disturbing as hell, but it never made sense to me how she could marry that psycho in the first place.

That was addressed on the show. Tyrion and Sansa never consumated their marriage so it could be deemed to be not valid.

[Dragonslack]

Because everyone likes a good lady mormont scene, not because of foreshadowing, a thing this show does in abundance.

[sifth]

35 minutes ago, Hodor's Aunt said:

That was addressed on the show. Tyrion and Sansa never consumated their marriage so it could be deemed to be not valid.

Again, how do you even prove something like that?

[AGS Martell]

Because it's more interesting watching little lady Mormont spitting at other lords than reading a letter,  maybe. At least for screen purposes.

[Desert Fox]

I think the actual reason could be that they cut the will out of the show without realizing the importance of it. During S3, they were adapting the show blindly based on the books they had. It was only after S3 that they talked to GRRM about the future of all the characters and presumably learned about Jon becoming King (if that is even what happens).

You could always retcon it, but that is weak as hell.

[Sigrid]

On 6/27/2016 at 6:30 PM, sifth said:

How could Sansa even marry Ramsay with Tyrion still alive? Seriously this has been an issue with me for a while now. I mean sure Sansa getting raped by her husband was sick and disturbing as hell, but it never made sense to me how she could marry that psycho in the first place.

The marriage with Tyrion was never consumated.  I believe even the show has mentioned the "bedding ceremony" wherein even the consumation is part of the celebration.  Tyrion expressly forbade it, and it seemed to me like quite a few people in KL knew Sansa and Tyrion had not been intimate.

I know the show never went into this level of detail, practically speaking Roose Bolton might have requested that Sansa be examined to see if she was still intact.  

[Sigrid]

20 hours ago, tmug said:

If Sansa is not a Stark anymore, why did she or Littlefinger not ever bring this fact up in Molestown or the Godswood? Sansa could have been like "you married me off to a Bolton so I no longer have a Stark name or any inheritance, I hate you!" something like that because including the abuse she took, her name is forever gone with that marriage and LF knew this - double burn.

Sansa has yet another reason to hate Littlefinger or else she would have been able to claim Winterfell if she wanted. Now she is viewed as damaged goods, Lyanna Mormont pointed that out.

I have wondered about this too.  It makes LF's claim about what he really wants make no sense.  How exactly can he rule with her by his side when he's already married her off?  I suppose it was always his plan to wipe out the Boltons one way or another, but I firmly believe that he views Sansa as his, and he's not about to let his prize be spoiled.

[Sigrid]

First, I would say that we have no idea what effect Robb's Will will have in the books.  Is it Chekov's will?  It was mentioned, so surely it must be relevant later!  Maybe.  Last we know it got sent away with a couple of bannermen/women who were on their way to visit Howland Reed in book 3 and never heard from again.  Who knows when or if it will ever turn up again.

Second, since the northern Lords seemed to have a pretty poor opinion of  Robb on the show, I'm not so sure his will would really be all that persuasive.

I'm not saying I'm thrilled with this turn of events.  The credit goes to little Lady Mormont being a great public speaker than anything else.  It wasn't so much the North Remembers as the North apologizes after the fact.  I would agree that from a show perspective it's all to set up tension between Jon, Sansa, and LF.  I saw her look at LF at the end being one of apprehension.  Jon is now in LF's way, and we know what he does to people who get in  his way.

[lakin1013]

I am not even certain why everyone thinks the will is no longer important.  Jon still has a legitimacy issue.  We know for certain who his mother is but the show is holding back on the father.  {I believe Rhaegar like the rest of us, but still it was whispered very quietly].  Jon can be proclaimed anything, but he has to be ready to prove his birthright, esp when the 'Rhaeger is your dad' thing is made clear.  Unless Bran could hear that part (was there a ring on L. Stark's finger?  I was so concentrating on the whispering, I have no idea.  Rings were exchanged back then, right?)

Anyway, the writers could be holding on to Robb's will for when Jon tangles with Dany.  Robb's willl will legitimize him.  Tho I do like the suggestion that as King, why doesn't Jon just make himself legit :-)

[Sigrid]

9 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Well its considerably easy to move towards an ending when you throw logic out the window for most things, make people appear wherever you want with no regard for time, and allow your plot to dictate your characters actions despite their established personalities. This episode was full of these things but enjoyable still let's not act like George should be expected to do these things.

Definitely agree.  It's easy to pick apart the show b/c it's like a scapegoat for the book we're waiting for.  The show has plenty of flaws, but ultimately I thought this episode was enjoyable.

[Sigrid]

8 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

He isn't that stupid in the book. In fact in the book he has made some deals that benefit NW. He has good negotiation skills in the book too. Actually in season 5 Jon wasn't too bad. Season 6 his character is totally wtf. 

I don't know...I remember being pretty annoyed with Jon Snow in the books until he beheaded Janos Slynt.  It's easier to cut him some slack in the books as he's supposed to be a teenager.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Boarsbane said:

How'd he earn it though? He and his men would of been massacred if not for LF and the Vale.

Boarsbanes right as usual. Jon didn't earn the Throne. The Knights of the Vale saved him. Sansa, Littlefinger, Yohn Royce and even Robin Arryn contributed more to winning that battle. He lost his temper (understandably), rushed in and had to be rescued by Davos and tormund first, followed by the Knights of the vale.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

38 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Boarsbanes right as usual. Jon didn't earn the Throne. The Knights of the Vale saved him. Sansa, Littlefinger, Yohn Royce and even Robin Arryn contributed more to winning that battle. He lost his temper (understandably), rushed in and had to be rescued by Davos and tormund first, followed by the Knights of the vale.

Mostly because Dump and Dumper want to make up for Sansa's fans for the last season by some empowering plot (but makes her more stupid and bossy regardless). In fact the battle of bastards might never happen in the book which is a big lol.

About Robb's will, I think people should forget it, the show doesn't have time to go through each details. Robb's will might play a crucial part in the books but it doesn't have room in the show. 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

45 minutes ago, Sigrid said:

I don't know...I remember being pretty annoyed with Jon Snow in the books until he beheaded Janos Slynt.  It's easier to cut him some slack in the books as he's supposed to be a teenager.

He did have some very good deals for NW like the deal with iron bank. He also arranged a political marriage. In the book he also shows up with a lot of knowledge about the North. In short, if he isn't tied to the NW, ne might be a very useful commander under Stannis.