Future Null Infinity Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 The scene of the KitN election came just after the R+L=J, they wanted to show that indeed a man can rule Winterfell and the north because he "earned" it even against the law of lines of succession, I can draw a parallel with Cersei sitting on the iron throne and deduce that Westeros indeed reached a level on anarchy and changes where people can elect whatever they want and men/women can take whatever they want, it was very unfortunate that Sansa was in the story because it looked like they usurped a 14 years old girl from her rights when you can see clearly a 10 years old ruling Bear island (yes, it was very unfortunate to show that, for me, the level of the hypocrisy went through the roof in that scene), but I think that it was intended to show a change from feudal system to democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Divine right of kings is a 17th century concept. And even that didn't prevent Charles I and Louis XVI from losing their heads. Power resides where men say it resides. What happen makes sense. One thing that was interesting with the costuming this season is that they went out of their way to parallel Jon's clothing with Ned's. The most obvious one is the cloak Sansa made him but even the man-bun was similar to how Ned wore his hair. The North is pledging its fealty to Ned Stark 2.0. Of course, the audience knows the truth about the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG_SUGE_DADDY Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 On 28 June 2016 at 9:04 AM, CrypticWeirwood said: This is a lot more credible than some flimsy piece of paper. I expect Sam to find a "flimsy piece of paper" some where in the citadel, because how else will his real parentage ever be believed by the people of Westeros with out some hard evidence! I honestly think he will eventually have a run in with One of the dragons, probably Drogon and that will shed some light for him and Dany, but that's for another thread! Lol but in regards to the OP i wonder if Robbs letter does ever see the light of day again and legitimise Jon, but if by then he's know to be the son of Rhaegar will that therefor mean he would, unintentionally, be legitimised as a Targaryan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 20 minutes ago, BIG_SUGE_DADDY said: I expect Sam to find a "flimsy piece of paper" some where in the citadel, because how else will his real parentage ever be believed by the people of Westeros with out some hard evidence! I'm not sure that it matters to the plot that “the people of Westeros“ believe his parents are who they are, but certainly becoming a dragonknight to Queen Dany is going to bolster any such claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallam Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 22 hours ago, Masha said: Yes, but you are saying that book and TV storylines will be same, in the show the rights of birth don't matter anymore, in the books they still most certainly do Well the original point was that Jon's bastard birth doesn't matter because the other houses are in the same situation. They are all down to bastards or cousins. And don't forget that even though there are more cousins in the books, we don't know much about where they are or what they are doing. In most cases they would have been married off to the cadet branches of other great families and so a lot of them are probably dead from the war of five kings but didn't justify a mention. Jon is the only political leader who can unite the remaining forces. And being a crap general on the field doesn't disqualify him as a politician. Take a look at the list of George Washington's victories. It is very short, the only battle he 'won' was fought in such a thick fog that the Regulars decided to 'run off' rather than fight in circumstances where they would likely kill their own side with friendly fire. Book Jon certainly isn't going to find out who he really is before he takes Winterfell. The point is that he is able to prove himself rather than rely on birth which was all Robert's children did. The same is true of Tyrion and Danny. All three are disinherited and make themselves into power brokers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 2 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said: I'm not sure that it matters to the plot that “the people of Westeros“ believe his parents are who they are, but certainly becoming a dragonknight to Queen Dany is going to bolster any such claim. This would be a good step but some people might just consider that his mother was a "Dragonseed" or that Dany influenced her dragons to like him. (Dragonseed meaning one of Targ by-blows) If R+L=J ever comes into play, there has to be more than Bran's dreams because at this point, even if Bran reaches Jon and tells him, Jon will hardly believe him. We need witnesses (Howard Reed) and some documentation, but I just doubt that Citadel has them otherwise why keep quiet for so long. Perhaps one of these dornish midwives in the Tower, they see Dany landing in Dorne and volunteer info for her? Frankly speaking I don't know how they might do it, other than Bran saw a dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallam Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Masha said: This would be a good step but some people might just consider that his mother was a "Dragonseed" or that Dany influenced her dragons to like him. (Dragonseed meaning one of Targ by-blows) If R+L=J ever comes into play, there has to be more than Bran's dreams because at this point, even if Bran reaches Jon and tells him, Jon will hardly believe him. We need witnesses (Howard Reed) and some documentation, but I just doubt that Citadel has them otherwise why keep quiet for so long. Perhaps one of these dornish midwives in the Tower, they see Dany landing in Dorne and volunteer info for her? Frankly speaking I don't know how they might do it, other than Bran saw a dream. Lyanna's tomb will contain Dawn which is revealed to be Lightbringer. Lyanna having been Nissa Nissa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I think that Littlefinger knows or has figured something out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurid Jester Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 55 minutes ago, hallam said: Lyanna's tomb will contain Dawn which is revealed to be Lightbringer. Lyanna having been Nissa Nissa. I don't think so. Its role has been played as the bloody star under which Jon was born. Without more info, there's no real reason to assume the sword was given to Ned. Also, a sword like Dawn going missing when Ned supposedly carried it back to Starfall would have been mentioned. Longclaw is Jon's sword. It was given to him by someone he respected and he has kept it with him. To have it replaced by Dawn just seems arbitrary. Particularly considering that any connections Jon may have to House Dayne are vaporware. I find it more likely that Dawn will find its way to Daenerys, although since the show killed off Selmy I'm not sure how that's going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osric Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 On 27/6/2016 at 6:30 PM, jrod said: I actually like it this way better. Jon has "earned" the lords' trust and for them to declare him KitN, the will would just means he would have inherited the title. I would rather it that Jon did something to become KitN rather than it just being given to him by Robb's decree. On 27/6/2016 at 6:35 PM, Boarsbane said: How'd he earn it though? He and his men would of been massacred if not for LF and the Vale. This! The thing I liked about Rob's coronation is that he was building his right to be elected, Jon just came to fight one battle in the North and he and his men almost got butchered, he was brave in the battle and that's it, and even looked so powerless when he talked to the Northern lords, how could he won the admiration of everybody, nah not for me... I agree with the idea of Rob's will, at least a convination of both would have been more credible. The only "but" I see is that it would have been a big spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrid Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 12 hours ago, illinifan said: What happen makes sense. One thing that was interesting with the costuming this season is that they went out of their way to parallel Jon's clothing with Ned's. The most obvious one is the cloak Sansa made him but even the man-bun was similar to how Ned wore his hair. The North is pledging its fealty to Ned Stark 2.0. Of course, the audience knows the truth about the situation. I'm so glad to have a plausible explanation for the man bun, b/c it was kinda driving me nuts as a style choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher of the night Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 On 2016. 07. 01. at 2:31 AM, TwiceBorn said: and many people, myself included, believe that he did nothing worthy of a king yet. He fought and risked his life, which is more than any of the northern Lords/Ladies can claim in that room including Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceBorn Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 9 hours ago, watcher of the night said: He fought and risked his life, which is more than any of the northern Lords/Ladies can claim in that room including Sansa. Podrick did some risking and fighting too, does this make him suitable to be a king? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonslack Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 The thing is twyn says it, bolton says it, lf says it, everybody says they need a stark, even if a fake one to have a chance to last and then sansa goes, he kills rickon publicly and his father... The north remembers indeed. The bastard had no support from the crown or anyone else. Why would anyone fight for a monster bastard that had no chance to last?! Another thing is if stuff like that doesnt matter then indeed it is anarchy, anyone can make a claim, backstab, but winter has arrived... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jon Snow Stark Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 37 minutes ago, Dragonslack said: The thing is twyn says it, bolton says it, lf says it, everybody says they need a stark, even if a fake one to have a chance to last and then sansa goes, he kills rickon publicly and his father... The north remembers indeed. The bastard had no support from the crown or anyone else. Why would anyone fight for a monster bastard that had no chance to last?! Another thing is if stuff like that doesnt matter then indeed it is anarchy, anyone can make a claim, backstab, but winter has arrived... Because he would die for them like he was willing to die to save his brother. Yea he probably should have let Rickon die and stay safe on the hill like Ramsey did. But everyone would know he purposely let his little brother get arrowed because all he wanted Winterfell. I think the show could have handled the battle better. But they wanted the visuals of Jon running towards Rickon and the Jon standing alone in front of Ramsey's army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjlxking Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 On July 1, 2016 at 9:10 AM, illinifan said: Divine right of kings is a 17th century concept. And even that didn't prevent Charles I and Louis XVI from losing their heads. Power resides where men say it resides. What happen makes sense. One thing that was interesting with the costuming this season is that they went out of their way to parallel Jon's clothing with Ned's. The most obvious one is the cloak Sansa made him but even the man-bun was similar to how Ned wore his hair. The North is pledging its fealty to Ned Stark 2.0. Of course, the audience knows the truth about the situation. My god, I totally agree with with the way the made Jon look so similar to Ned. Despite not being his son, he is truly Ned's legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 On June 27, 2016 at 7:30 PM, jrod said: I actually like it this way better. Jon has "earned" the lords' trust and for them to declare him KitN, the will would just means he would have inherited the title. I would rather it that Jon did something to become KitN rather than it just being given to him by Robb's decree. He earned their trust by being absolutely stupid in battle? By failing to keep his cool getting most of his troops killed, by showing he can easily be manipulated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 On June 27, 2016 at 7:47 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said: When did the High Septon grant her an annulment, as the only person who can? Does the North, most of whom don't worship the 7 give a rats ass about the High Septon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Fox Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 He earned their trust by facing the boltons when they were too afraid. By facing near certain death to try to save Rickon their rightful king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 24 minutes ago, Desert Fox said: He earned their trust by facing the boltons when they were too afraid. By facing near certain death to try to save Rickon their rightful king. Doing the most stupid thing possible and getting most of his troops killed, that would win my trust. :rollseyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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