VS Chain Links

[YOVMO]

Does anyone know if the citadel has

1) a stock pile of Valyrian Steel and 2) either the knowhow to rework it or a Qohorik smith who reworks it?

 

I was under the impression that Maesters forged their own chains. While not all maesters study magic, there are some who do. Would they know how to rework Valyrian Steel? Did Maester Luwin know how to rework Valyrian Steel? Or for that one is there a VS guy over in the Citadel forges who does it for them. Marwyn has a VS walking stick too.

 

Just curious how much VS they have over in the citadel and how they are shaping it.

[aryagonnakill#2]

George was asked this once and gave a cop out answer, the person who asked even called him on it at the event and they just ignored it.

Q: Where do the maesters Valyrian steal links come from if no 1 can create VS anymore"

A:  It can't be created but can be reworked.

Q: So I guess the maesters just have a stockpile of VS?!?

Host:  OO you thought you got him but he got you, in other words you obviously got him but I'm going to jump in here and ignore it.  We basically have to ignore it.

Edit: For the record the post below mine is not the quote I was referring to.

 

[RumHam]

5 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Does anyone know if the citadel has

1) a stock pile of Valyrian Steel and 2) either the knowhow to rework it or a Qohorik smith who reworks it?

 

I was under the impression that Maesters forged their own chains. While not all maesters study magic, there are some who do. Would they know how to rework Valyrian Steel? Did Maester Luwin know how to rework Valyrian Steel? Or for that one is there a VS guy over in the Citadel forges who does it for them. Marwyn has a VS walking stick too.

 

Just curious how much VS they have over in the citadel and how they are shaping it.

They forge their chains in a metaphorical sense. Also they don't have to reforge the Valyrian Steel links. They could just forge the other metals around an existing unbroken link of Valyrian Steel. So few maesters study magic that I don't think they need that many of the links. 

 

Quote

 

Now the question. Do maesters fully forge the links of their chokers from raw metal, or do they take strips of existing metal and forge it into the links?

When he said a maester "forges" his chain, it is more metaphorical. They do study metals, but that doesn't necessarily include training as blacksmiths.

I had assumed the former, but the latter would be simpler. I ask, of course, because of the link of Valyrian steel in Maester Luwin's chain. Did he know the spells, or did he take an existing strip and beat it into shape?

He studied magical tomes and histories, and mastered enough of the arcane lore to impress an archmaester into granting him a link. He did not necessarily have to make the steel himself.

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1171

[GallowsKnight]

A link isn't very big, There is a difference between making a crude ring and a sharp sword. Very few study magic.

And no one is going to piss of the Hightowers and the Citadel by taking their VS steel to give to someone like Tobho Mott. Who might not even be able to do anything with it.

[Curled Finger]

We were discussing this only a week ago.   Much is made of the 227 (228 now with Euron's armor) Valyrian Steel items.  These items include of course, the swords, at least 1 crown, an axe, an arrakh, a dagger.  Remarkably few identified items.  I wonder if those links are part of the inventory?  

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

7 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Does anyone know if the citadel has 1) a stock pile of VS & 2) either the know-how to rework it or a Qohorik smith who does?

IIRC, we don't know for sure if the Citadel has a stockpile of VS links, but almost certainly. As @GallowsKnight said (& is evidenced by the chains of book maesters being tight around their necks, no matter how many links they have), a VS link would be rather small & unfashioned. It wouldn't take much VS at all for all the links the Citadel would require for the links. There's what, probably only a few thousand chained maesters in Westeros, with only around 1% having earned a VS link - presumably they have one jar with say 100 (200 to be safe?) VS links kept in a storage room full of jars holding the other metals. Each time a maester dies, their chain is likely sent to the Citadel one way or another & it is then taken apart with the links then resorted back into storage.

(Partially off-topic paragraph, though related to Gallows' second line) VS is outrageously expensive, but the amount of it as a link is virtually ineffectual. The rod & mask of the archmaester of magic & the occult for one would have far more VS than a link. There's far better & easier ways to acquire larger amounts (i.e. weapons) of VS (along with other precious metals) in Westeros than stealing links by not returning a chain to the Citadel - one chain could be excused especially if their had been a bloody battle or the maester had gone missing (non-suspiciously), but after a second chain wasn't returned they wouldn't service that castle anymore at least until they were repaid with the chain/s &/or recompense. That's if such a House wasn't sanctioned with discipline from their overlord in the first place: the Citadel is an extremely powerful & influential pan-Westerosi institution that wouldn't take shit from any House trying to steal their stuff. And any House prestigious enough to have a maester would almost certainly be rich enough to not even have to think about such behaviour, even if they were heavily in debt.

As @RumHam pointed out, the forging of VS chain is largely metaphorical - very few maesters would actually literally do it & even then it wouldn't be possible to do such for all the different metals (like forging other metal links around a VS one). Maesters are generally more the scholarly sort, than the craftsman kind.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Much is made of the 227 (228 now with Euron's armor) Valyrian Steel items.

That's VS blades that have been documented (which the nobility would almost exclusively have making such easier, though some are lost) in Westeros: swords (need not necessarily be longswords or larger, could include various smaller ones like short, curved or bravo swords), daggers (Robert's/Ned's/LF's for one), axes (Celtigar one mentioned in ASoS), etc.

Quote

The Valyrian steel blades that remain in the world might number in the thousands, but in the Seven Kingdoms there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from the annals of history. (The World of Ice & Fire, Ancient History: Valyria's Children)

 

[Lord Vance II]

So few earn a VS link they could probably reuse the same handful. 

We don't know what happens to chains after a Maester dies, but I would imagine they usually end up back at the Citadel. And most of those who would earn it would probably stay in Oldtown or King's Landing and be easily recoverable when they died. 

If they had maybe a dozen or so I bet they could reuse them for a long time. 

[Valyrian Spoon]

As others have said I don't see many maesters studying for the VS chain link. It's probably only done by a few with an interest or who are ahead of the pack in terms of more "practical" studies that a maester needs.

[YOVMO]

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

They forge their chains in a metaphorical sense.

This I didn't know. I really always pictured them in a forge learning some very basic smithing...not even as much as an apprentice, but yes, it appears you are right. Thank you for that bit of information.

 

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Much is made of the 227 (228 now with Euron's armor)

is the original 227 counting Ice or Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail? Also, I heard someone talk about how they think a Qohorik smith fashioned Euron's ARmor from blades he found though I don't think I actually buy that.

 

9 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

The rod & mask of the archmaester of magic & the occult for one would have far more VS than a link. 

These items would seem to boarder "priceless" in value. It would seem to me that in the long history of the Citadel someone would have at least tried to make off with them.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

8 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

is the original 227 counting Ice or Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail? Also, I heard someone talk about how they think a Qohorik smith fashioned Euron's ARmor from blades he found though I don't think I actually buy that.

It counts Ice (was over 400 years old, after all), but not Oathkeeper & Widow's Wail as Yandel originally wrote TWoIaF for Robert & was quoting Thurgood's Inventories. Plus it means known (whether still extant or lost at some stage) VS blades & not items.

Interesting, Euron is the kind to could actually have gone to that trouble, but it would take a fuckton of VS blades to have enough material for the armour & I have a hard to thinking he could acquire that much & also even that a top Qohorik smith could rework VS well enough for armour. Also, I'd guess there is an Old-Valyria level amount of sorcery perhaps still lingering as possibly some sort of magical protection (dare I say it, mayhaps from dragonfire?!). Such does help Euron's claim that he has been to Valyria, but there's still a fair chance he is full of shit in that department & just paid the Iron Price for it somewhere else (likely Asshai).

18 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

These items would seem to boarder "priceless" in value. It would seem to me that in the long history of the Citadel someone would have at least tried to make off with them.

That's a good point, mayhaps they have actually been stolen before! Though I would guess they are generally relatively secure & not widely known & so far the VS materials have dates of origin for only began coming to Westeros within a century of the Doom.

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

It counts Ice (was over 400 years old, after all), but not Oathkeeper & Widow's Wail as Yandel originally wrote TWoIaF for Robert & was quoting Thurgood's Inventories. Plus it means known (whether still extant or lost at some stage) VS blades & not items.

That makes sense. I sometimes forget to take POV of the Maester into account. Thanks.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

but it would take a fuckton of VS blades to have enough material for the armour & I have a hard to thinking he could acquire that much & also even that a top Qohorik smith could rework VS well enough for armour

I thought the same thing and I still don't think it is true...however, the fuckton may be less than you think. I looked at the weight of a medieval suit a mail and the weight of a medieval great sword and it looks like it would have taken about 4 great swords to make a full suit of plate.

I think there is something fishy with that armor, but whether it is very important armor or just glamoured as part of the Euron show I don't know.

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Also, I'd guess there is an Old-Valyria level amount of sorcery perhaps still lingering as possibly some sort of magical protection (dare I say it, mayhaps from dragonfire?!)

This is possible and we do know that old spells are working better (cf pyromancers being able to make the substance easier), old magics returning (house of the undying) and mythical magical items working again (glass candles) since the comet or return of the dragons etc. I would be curious to see if Bronze Yohn's armor has started acting all awesome and stuff.

I have a hard time buying dragonfire resistance though. A full blast of dragon fire to someone wearing armor that was even 100% dragon fire proof really wouldn't make much of a difference. Any exposed part would melt and the armor, even if it didn't break, would still get red hot killing the person wearing it as VS can in favt be melted...even by non dragon fire....as we see with Tobho Mott melting down ice.

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Such does help Euron's claim that he has been to Valyria, but there's still a fair chance he is full of shit in that department & just paid the Iron Price for it somewhere else (likely Asshai).

There is the odd thing. I mean, I get how for a sailor it is serious bragging rights to have sailed the smoking sea. But that aside....wtf does it matter if Euron has been to Valyria. It is not like he has said "I've been to valyria and I found out some new knowledge, got these cool items....etc" Euron is basically talking about the girl he totally felt up on summer vacation to Niagara falls.

I have a lot of tinfoil theories for a lot of things but I always try to follow the rules of internal consistency and logic and that it somehow is meaningful to the story and that it has multiple angles by which it makes sense (side note: these are not rules followed by show writers smh) and for all my thinking about it I simply can't come up with a convincing explanation for Euron's armor nor for his trip to Valyria with the information currently supplied.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

No worries, easy done.

Ah ok, good point on just 4 great swords equals the weight (possibly also influenced by less volume of VS needed to given it's far greater strength compared to normal steel). Still, that is a lot of VS to acquire (personally I think overly so) unless he somehow stumbled on a massive stash. Mmm, I hadn't considered a glamour - nice point! It's not like Damps is exactly in a state where he could see through such either, assuming he even could in the first place, which isn't overly likely.

Yes, the magic is returning & same on Bronze Yohn's Royce armour - I wonder if such has protection against the Others ("We Remember") ... True on the unlikelihood of dragonfire resistance for those points exactly, though mayhaps magical warding of somehow being fireproof certainly would be handy for Valyrian dragonriders (who we know had warred before) ...

Yeah, fair points (& show dig, heh) ... I can't really answer that tbh either, certainly not well. I suppose we'll find out in TWoW, mayhaps Aeron II.

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Ah ok, good point on just 4 great swords equals the weight (possibly also influenced by less volume of VS needed to given it's far greater strength compared to normal steel).

The volume was something that was on my mind as well. I didn't get this from any serious smithing knowledge though. I just googled suite of plate armor and read average weight and then googled weight of medieval great sword and did the same assuming that once that amount of VS was melted it could be formed into anything.

4 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Still, that is a lot of VS to acquire (personally I think overly so) unless he somehow stumbled on a massive stash.

Agreed and I don't really buy it but for some reason it keeps popping up. I will say that if he is telling the truth about sailing the smoking sea, it is just as likely that Euron found a stash of VS weapons as it is that he found one weapon or a full set of armor.

13 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Mmm, I hadn't considered a glamour - nice point! It's not like Damps is exactly in a state where he could see through such either, assuming he even could in the first place, which isn't overly likely.

Yeah, the glamour is my best guess now because it fits euron's showmanship and isn't likely to be detected, but I just feel like there is more there.

14 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I wonder if such has protection against the Others ("We Remember") .

I really can't see it being protection against anything else. At least it has to be protection against some form of magic. There is no non-magical entity that we know of that we can be protected against through runes.

[YOVMO]

16 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

True on the unlikelihood of dragonfire resistance for those points exactly, though mayhaps magical warding of somehow being fireproof certainly would be handy for Valyrian dragonriders

It might be more about controlling the dragon or somehow letting the dragons know that you are not food. I know it is way out there, but one mans magic is another mans medicine and it could be possible that what people think of as runes are just dragon speech.

[Curled Finger]

@Lord Corlys Velaryon, I thank you for straightening me out.  (Sorry, can't seem to quote)  I went back and reread and of course it is not items, but blades.   I apologize for my misstatement.  

I used to think Euron was full of beans, but after The Forsaken I am reevaluating everything Euron says.   I'm proceeding on the assumption that his armor is from somewhere other than scavenged Westerosi VS.  Oh boy.   

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, YOVMO said:

This I didn't know. I really always pictured them in a forge learning some very basic smithing...not even as much as an apprentice, but yes, it appears you are right. Thank you for that bit of information.

 

is the original 227 counting Ice or Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail? Also, I heard someone talk about how they think a Qohorik smith fashioned Euron's ARmor from blades he found though I don't think I actually buy that.

 

These items would seem to boarder "priceless" in value. It would seem to me that in the long history of the Citadel someone would have at least tried to make off with them.

Sorry for the late reply, you know how I enjoy a sword discussion with you. I think Euron has the real deal VS armor.  I'm hoping we will get a better understanding of Valyrian Steel, it's purpose and properties, in The Winds of Winter.   

[YOVMO]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Sorry for the late reply, you know how I enjoy a sword discussion with you. I think Euron has the real deal VS armor.  I'm hoping we will get a better understanding of Valyrian Steel, it's purpose and properties, in The Winds of Winter.   

Indeed. You have been my sword guru in many ways.

i will say that if it is real deal vS armor then there has to be more to VS in general than just being lighter, sharper etc. 

[Curled Finger]

Oh I'm certain you're right.  If this is the armor from Jon's dream it's very curious that Euron would be the character to introduce it.  I have to admit that I'm excited about the prospects in this.  This book can't be published quickly enough.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

@YOVMO Yes true, Euron could've as likely found a VS "cache" as a VS sword or armour, especially if he did sail the Smoking Sea (so torn on this - I want him have found them in Asshai, be full of shit about Valyria & Rodrik called him out, but there is also much & more hinting that he just may have). I leaning towards the armour being the real deal, but even if so, that doesn't mean that there might not be something up with it like a part-glamour or something though. And then there's what is it actually for besides looking good? Nice point on it possibly having something to do with controlling a dragon in the first place, especially in conjunction with/if it's related to Dragonbinder in anyway, which considering they're both associated with/owned by Euron ...

Agreed on the Royce armour too - it's not like the Andals or the Seven have ever been magical. I think it has to be something to do with the Long Night. Still, there is plenty of Narrow Sea mythology going in several areas relatively close by, including as close as Witch Isle. Alternatively, it may be some kind of defense against say the CotF, but I really don't think so, just throwing out ideas.

@Curled Finger No worries & no need to apologise. Indeed, that's one quote I personally think is often misquoted in the fandom, though generally as people thinking it means 227 swords (longswords or longer/larger) instead of just 227 blades. After all, before Ice is made into two, there is only a dozen known Westerosi VS swords (with Truth of the Rogare family the only known Essosi VS longsword) by us & half of those have undetermined fates. Though there is many more unnamed Houses (though would mainly be lesser ones) than the 500-ish we know of (both extant & extinct), there's no way that +200 Westerosi Houses have/had a VS sword - blades like LF's dagger & Celtigar's axe, Crab's Pincer, would make up most of the number. The Houses that do/did own the VS swords are sufficiently prominent for such with those of perhaps more questionable purchasing power having likely reasons for ownership:

• House Drumm's Red Rain is commonly (& rightly imo) theorised to have been House Reyne's ancestral VS sword nicked in a raid. Though they are one of the top Ironborn Houses, so may have been rich enough to afford one if they had so tried.
• House Mormont's Longclaw is how Jon acquires his "hero" weapon, Maege leaving it with Jeor makes sense given (after Jorah's actions but leaving it, she prefers wielding a mace, no male heirs, symbol of prestige at the reduced prestige Wall, etc) & they likely originally acquired from the dead fingers of an Ironborn raider who had presumably done the same from another.
• House Harlaw's Nightfall was commandeered following Dalton Greyjoy's death, who himself had taken off a dead corsair. Again, the Harlaws may have been rich enough to afford one if they so tried, anyway.
• House Roxton comes from the rich & prosperous Reach, & bold Jon was one of the Caltrops. At least once, the Roxtons may have been on par with say even the Tarlys.

Same on Euron - he's certainly at least less full of shit following that chapter. I'm guessing that the other properties of VS besides the superior physical ones are magical in nature.

[Curled Finger]

@YOVMO & @Lord Corlys Velaryon, 

though the idea of Euron finding some secret cache of VS is intriguing, events in the latest Aeron chapter lead me to believe he's being completely truthful.    Yah, it's blowing my mind that some yahoo walked Valyria and lived to tell the tale, but nearly all the revelations in The Forsaken gave me a renewed respect for Euron's abilities.    What could he possibly need with a VS suit of armor?   I hope there is a reason for Euron other than his being the device to introduce the armor so Jon can get it.   In Jon's dream he also carries a flaming sword.    It's all beginning to come together.   If that flaming sword is VS--and wouldn't THAT be curious!--one has to imagine that VS is somehow impervious to fire.   How that aids in the fight against a bunch of ICE zombies I can't imagine, but perhaps the armor works in the same way we expect the swords to.   Though it's still unconfirmed that VS=Dragon Steel I think the signs point that way.  If Dragon Steel is capable of smoting Others perhaps the armor is somehow protective against Other's magic or weapons?  Not sure about any of it, but Man, this is such good stuff.   

If Yovmo ever gets on the good foot and creates a topic for discussing the potential history and future of our most excellent Valyrian Steel I look forward to your contributions.    So much to speculate about.