Who can Dany marry in Westeros?

[lancerman]

15 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I'm not expecting her to be a POV. But I have very few doubts, in books, she will be Jon's wife, or whatever. I could imagine, with more or less acceptance, Sansa, Wylla Manderly, Lyanna Mormont, Arianne or any Sand Snake, Meera, Mya Stone or even Arya or Shireen. But not Daenerys, never Daenerys. She and Jon are not made to go along.

What advantage is there to Jon marrying a wildling princess. The wildlings are already fighting the Others. It's not like they have something he needs.

Daneary's will likely have half the kingdom and Jon will likely have the other half. There isn't a marriage that makes more sense.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

23 minutes ago, lancerman said:

What advantage is there to Jon marrying a wildling princess. The wildlings are already fighting the Others. It's not like they have something he needs.

Daneary's will likely have half the kingdom and Jon will likely have the other half. There isn't a marriage that makes more sense.

I don't think, one second, Jon will be KitN. This is for Rickon. Nor king of anything. His purpose is to defeat or deal with the Others and protect the realms. He won't need an alliance, not with a seeker of thrones.

[Commander Jon Snow]

I don't know. Robb's will exists in the book and I think it'll come into play in the books as well. And I still think Rickon's storyline in tWoW will be one giant Shaggydog story

[nothatso]

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

What advantage is there to Jon marrying a wildling princess. The wildlings are already fighting the Others. It's not like they have something he needs.

Daneary's will likely have half the kingdom and Jon will likely have the other half. There isn't a marriage that makes more sense.

 

Not that I expect this to happen, but I believe Stannis wanted Jon to marry Val as a symbol of unity between Northmen and Wildlings. Not that the Wildlings are legally obligated to follow her, but the North might be more inclined to accept the Wildlings if the North's leader was married to a really hot one that totally could be a princess. Or something. Of course BalerionTheCat thinks Jon won't lead The North so that point is moot.

That said I personally think Val is sort of Jon's Daario equivalent - that Daario and Val are a set of characters that act as a representation of temptation for lustful desires that Dany/Jon will ultimately have to be set aside as the characters move on to more important things.

[BalerionTheCat]

41 minutes ago, nothatso said:

Not that I expect this to happen, but I believe Stannis wanted Jon to marry Val as a symbol of unity between Northmen and Wildlings. Not that the Wildlings are legally obligated to follow her, but the North might be more inclined to accept them if their leader was married to a really hot one that totally could be a princess. Or something. Of course BalerionTheCat thinks Jon won't lead The North so that point is moot.

I don't see Jon as a king. Not someone with a crown, owning lands, and people kneeling before him. That could be Rickon, but he should rather not ask for too much. I believe Jon will remain, someway, the LC of the Night Watch, without the stupidity of the oaths, but with a larger mandate than guarding the Wall against the Others. It doesn't mean no one will listen to him and accept his counsel. Not after what he will have done to stop the Long Night.

Just me. But I don't feel the idea of people following you because you are married to their queen of princess is right. And still less when the queen conquered her kingdom by violence.

[illinifan]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't think, one second, Jon will be KitN. This is for Rickon. Nor king of anything. His purpose is to defeat or deal with the Others and protect the realms. He won't need an alliance, not with a seeker of thrones.

Umm..  Did you not see the last episode?  That has already happened.  

And I think that Rickon's story is a Shaggy dog tale.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Politics over Love

Jon will marry Dany for politics not love: he needs her light-bringing dragons in the fight against the Long Night.

Dany will marry Jon for politics not love: she needs his kingdoms to bring the rest of Westeros under her authority.

 

[Cragen]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't see Jon as a king. Not someone with a crown, owning lands, and people kneeling before him. That could be Rickon, but he should rather not ask for too much. I believe Jon will remain, someway, the LC of the Night Watch, without the stupidity of the oaths, but with a larger mandate than guarding the Wall against the Others. It doesn't mean no one will listen to him and accept his counsel. Not after what he will have done to stop the Long Night.

Just me. But I don't feel the idea of people following you because you are married to their queen of princess is right. And still less when the queen conquered her kingdom by violence.

Can you just clarify, did I understand you well? You think he will be Jon the Conciliator, but without title. His authority will come from his deeds during Long Night.

[BalerionTheCat]

31 minutes ago, illinifan said:

Umm..  Did you not see the last episode?  That has already happened.  

And I think that Rickon's story is a Shaggy dog tale.

Well, at some point it went to Daenerys marrying Jon, in books as in the show, of Jon needing the queen of Westeros, of Jon becoming KitN. I gave my POV for the books, and was left in "book mode" for the following exchanges. Sorry.

Yes, I saw the last episode. And I don't know what will happen when Bran will return. Three Starks are way too much now. And yes, in "show mode", Jon is likely to marry Dany and be king. I hate it.

[illinifan]

5 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Well, at some point it went to Daenerys marrying Jon, in books as in the show, of Jon needing the queen of Westeros, of Jon becoming KitN. I gave my POV for the books, and was left in "book mode" for the following exchanges. Sorry.

Yes, I saw the last episode. And I don't know what will happen when Bran will return. Three Starks are way too much now. And yes, in "show mode", Jon is likely to marry Dany and be king. I hate it.

I think that the book does not stray that far from the show with character endings.  That does not mean that it is all roses with the characters.  In fact, I think that Jon or Dany or both die.

[PirateVergo]

ITT : People not understanding that the KITN cannot marry the ruler of the 7 kingdoms without one of them bending the knee and giving up his title.

[thor2006]

4 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

ITT : People not understanding that the KITN cannot marry the ruler of the 7 kingdoms without one of them bending the knee and giving up his title.

Maybe you should look up personal union and what it means. It was common in real life as a political union of two kingdoms. It was used to unify Spain and may European countries.

[illinifan]

15 minutes ago, thor2006 said:

Maybe you should look up personal union and what it means. It was common in real life as a political union of two kingdoms. It was used to unify Spain and may European countries.

I was thinking a Ferdinand and Isabella type situation myself.

[BalerionTheCat]

49 minutes ago, Cragen said:

Can you just clarify, did I understand you well? You think he will be Jon the Conciliator, but without title. His authority will come from his deeds during Long Night.

Yes. It is really speculative on my part. But I feel nothing good from any king or much lords for now (except Doran, but the show ruined him). Even Robb led his people to their tomb by his weakness and lack of wisdom. I would use some words of the oath. "I am the sword in the darkness ... I am the shield that guards the realms of men." One way or another he can't be that sword & shield, and be powerless. I also believe his death will really mean something. He can't still be a man like the others. And it should impress if he is the gods sent savior.

[Kytheros]

4 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

ITT : People not understanding that the KITN cannot marry the ruler of the 7 kingdoms without one of them bending the knee and giving up his title.

No, it's almost completely the opposite.

It's a way to bring the realms under the King in the North and under Dany back together under the same crown without kneeling. The King in the North and the Iron Throne would be separate titles, and would remain separate for their lifetimes, but then be unified in the heir of their bodies. The King in the North would not be kneeling to the Iron Throne - the King in the North would be sitting the Iron Throne.

That's the big thing about marriage alliances - neither side is giving much of anything up, but both are still getting most of what they wanted. Marriages between primary claimants is a way to settle those claims without either side giving up their claims.

For example, if Robb had not already been betrothed, Catelyn might very well have cut a deal with Stannis to betroth him to Shireen. Robb wouldn't be kneeling, per se, and would have kept his bannermen who named him King happy, but it would have re-unified the Realm, and satisfied Stannis.

 

There are plenty of examples of how this could work in history.

[Frejac]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 0:36 PM, illinifan said:

Because he is her nephew and because it is too cliche fairy tale.  The magic princess with dragons marries the handsome prince and they defeat the ice zombies and live happily ever after..  The end.  That is the wrong series.  

But the way the board is set and what is being hinted out (i.e. Dany leaving man candy back in Meereen), it makes sense from a storytelling and political standpoint.  The show has pointed out that the North is very difficult to invade (cough: Russia: cough) and that having dragons doesn't necessarily mean that one can win either the war or the peace (i.e. the whole Meereen arc).  Jon is the only eligible bachelor from the nobility with real political power as of the Season 6 finale and he controls the part of Westros that would be most difficult for her to conquer.  For Jon's standpoint, making the alliance would mean being able to use the dragons against the ice zombies.  The fact that the North is unconquerable especially during winter would ensure the North's independence and an equal power dynamic between the two.  It would be a co-rulership scenario like Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain.  However, the main snag is that it is so clique and Disney fantasy.  How do you make that work without getting sappy and sentimental?

I haven't quite caught up with the rest of the thread yet, but I just wanted to highlight that sentence.

Aunt marrying nephew.  Cliché fairy tail.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

6 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Politics over Love

Jon will marry Dany for politics not love: he needs her light-bringing dragons in the fight against the Long Night.

Dany will marry Jon for politics not love: she needs his kingdoms to bring the rest of Westeros under her authority.

 

Yeah, it'll initially be politics, but they're going to totally fall in love. Have you seen Kit and Emilia's on-screen chemistry? No show runner worth their salt is going to squander that.

Besides, as Frejac notes, there's nothing cliche about a nephew marrying an aunt who's younger than he is. Their consanguine relation to one another won't even really register for them; Google "genetic sexual attraction." Conversely, the Westermarck effect is why Jon won't be attracted to Arya or Sansa, whom he was raised around, even though they're likely his cousins.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Kytheros said:

No, it's almost completely the opposite.

It's a way to bring the realms under the King in the North and under Dany back together under the same crown without kneeling. The King in the North and the Iron Throne would be separate titles, and would remain separate for their lifetimes, but then be unified in the heir of their bodies. The King in the North would not be kneeling to the Iron Throne - the King in the North would be sitting the Iron Throne.

That's the big thing about marriage alliances - neither side is giving much of anything up, but both are still getting most of what they wanted. Marriages between primary claimants is a way to settle those claims without either side giving up their claims.

For example, if Robb had not already been betrothed, Catelyn might very well have cut a deal with Stannis to betroth him to Shireen. Robb wouldn't be kneeling, per se, and would have kept his bannermen who named him King happy, but it would have re-unified the Realm, and satisfied Stannis.

 

There are plenty of examples of how this could work in history.

Exactly. The potential marriage alliance is almost beautiful in its construction. (GRRM is a genius.) 

Not only will Jon and Dany have compelling political reasons to marry, they'll also find in the other person someone they've never met, but who's almost lived a mirroring life... from their very existence being a threat as babies, to being a ruler over their head (Lord Commander of the Night's Watch/Queen of Meereen). They both have animal avatars, they both are in their late teens, and veer between self-confidence and competence, and moments of self-doubt and sadness.

They'll even probably good in bed together... Jon's good at the very thing that Dany clearly likes. *coughs*The Lord's kiss*coughs*

They both lost their first loves, too, under very tragic circumstances. Ygritte and Drogo were their first loves, and some time has passed. Staying with the person with whom you share your first everything? That's Disney. Having a past and a history, and then ending up with someone for reasons beyond those of the heart? Show me the fairytale or Disney movie where any of that happens.

[CrypticWeirwood]

29 minutes ago, Liz Stark-Targaryen said:

Yeah, it'll initially be politics, but they're going to totally fall in love. Have you seen Kit and Emilia's on-screen chemistry? No show runner worth their salt is going to squander that.

Besides, as Frejac notes, there's nothing cliche about a nephew marrying an aunt who's younger than he is. Their consanguine relation to one another won't even really register for them; Google "genetic sexual attraction." Conversely, the Westermarck effect is why Jon won't be attracted to Arya or Sansa, whom he was raised around, even though they're likely his cousins.

I certainly agree with everything you’ve said in your second paragraph, but no, I haven’t seen Kit and Emilia on screen together anywhere yet. If she can act more like she did around Peter Dinklage in the last episode than she has, well, nearly anywhere else, then that might work.

 

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I certainly agree with everything you’ve said in your second paragraph, but no, I haven’t seen Kit and Emilia on screen together anywhere yet. If she can act more like she did around Peter Dinklage in the last episode than she has, well, nearly anywhere else, then that might work.

 

They haven't been together on the show...but when you see them in interviews, photoshoots, panel discussions and so forth...they can be pretty damn hot together!