What's the basis for Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne?

[SeanF]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 2:56 AM, Cron said:

Here's my understanding of it:

At the end of Robert's Rebellion, the person with the best claim to the throne was...Robert Baratheon.

NOT just cuz he took it by force, but b/c HE has a Targaryen in his ancestry, which is why, it is believed, Robert got the throne instead of Ned or Jon Arryn.  If this is the case, then that would trump any claim Tywin Lannister had at the time, and Robert's line succeeds.

Next, at the time of Tommen's death, as I understand it, the known characters with the best claim to the throne are...Cersei and Jaime, NOT b/c of their relationships to Robert, Joffrey or Tommen, but rather, b/c THEY (Jaime and Cersei) have a Baratheon in their ancestry.  The known Baratheon line is wiped out, so we look to living relatives of the Baratheon line, and we find a connection to the Lannister line, the oldest of whom is...Cersei Lannister.

Thus, it is entirely plausible that Cersei (being older than Jaime by a few minutes) has claimed the throne is hers by right, not just cuz she seized it.

That's my understanding of it.

I don't think Cersei has any Baratheon ancestors.  Her father married a Lannister, her grandfather married a Marbrand,  her great-grandfather married a Webber, and her great-great grandfather married a Brax.  Those are all nobility from the Westerlands or Reach, and not royalty, or the families of Lords Paramount.

This is more like the way that in Rome, Byzantium, or Russia, people who were in some way connected to the royal family might make a bid for the Throne, when the outgoing ruler died.

[dsug]

1 minute ago, Rhollo said:

Power and rule extending as far as the walls of the Red Keep go, that is. And maybe over the smallfolk of King's landing, as long as they are scared or indifferent enough. And who are more of a burden, really.  A lot of hungry mouths to feed or angry hands to control (should she fail the first one) in the upcoming war.

While I agree with you, I don't think she really gives a fuck about the commoners. They stay out of her way (which I doubt they will), she won't really pay attention to them.

What she's interested in is the goldcloaks, the kingsguard, the thousands of Lannister men Jaime just returned with, the little birds, every able-bodied commoner capable of swinging a sword. Strength is power, power is power. She wants and desperately needs an army. She doesn't give a fuck about the peasants and the orphans and the whores. She needs people who can give her what she wants. 

[Duranaparthur]

I don't think anyone in Kingslanding gives a rats ass about who's the "proper" king or queen right now; Cersei's in charge in the show because she has the capability to destroy the city with wildfire in almost no time, has at least enough mooks who will follow her orders because they're loyal or too terrified to disobey, and has an unstoppable bodyguard who makes assassination seem unlikley.

Cersei's ruling through the oldest type of authority: force. She needs no justification provided she can still apply that force. And we all know that's a finite amount of time; her force is localized inside Kingslanding, and her biggest rival is comign for her from outside with more everything. Her power effectively extends only as far as people will listen to her, and that's going to shrink as Dany approaches and as Jaime hardens his heart against her.

[dsug]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't think Cersei has any Baratheon ancestors.  Her father married a Lannister, her grandfather married a Marbrand,  her great-grandfather married a Webber, and her great-great grandfather married a Brax.  Those are all nobility from the Westerlands or Reach, and not royalty, or the families of Lords Paramount.

This is more like the way that in Rome, Byzantium, or Russia, people who were in some way connected to the royal family might make a bid for the Throne, when the outgoing ruler died.

some people are acting like Cersei is literally this nobody who just waltzed into the Red Keep for the first time and just sat down on the Iron Throne. They are forgetting she is known through the seven kingdoms and the court already as Queen Consort, Queen Regent, she ran Tommen's Small Council, she has a reputation for being a cunning and cutthroat politician. Out of everybody left in KL after the Sept burned, Cersei is (as twisted as it sounds) the most qualified to rule. She's been there for twenty years. 

She's the linking factor between the last three rulers. She's the last one left. 

[Rhollo]

56 minutes ago, dsug said:

While I agree with you, I don't think she really gives a fuck about the commoners. They stay out of her way (which I doubt they will), she won't really pay attention to them.

What she's interested in is the goldcloaks, the kingsguard, the thousands of Lannister men Jaime just returned with, the little birds, every able-bodied commoner capable of swinging a sword. Strength is power, power is power. She wants and desperately needs an army. She doesn't give a fuck about the peasants and the orphans and the whores. She needs people who can give her what she wants. 

I agree she doesn't give a fuck about the commoners, but she still has to maintain a somewhat finctioning economy. If only to have a workforce, that can sustain her army.

And revolting smallfolk also means more of her forces are occupied with keeping the peace within KL instead of fighting off her enemies from outside.

51 minutes ago, dsug said:

she has a reputation for being a cunning and cutthroat politician.

Receipts, please. Her short era running Tommens small council had her handing over power to the faith militant to ultimately get herself arrested and paraded naked through the streets by them. Olenna called her stupid and told her how she ruined both their houses to her face last time they spoke and is quite right about that. And all the other people who have witnessed her political maneuvering are pretty much dead now.

So ... not quite sure, where a reputation as either "clever" or "politician" would ever come from, unless people are still somehow projecting those attributes onto House Lannister in general, thanks to Tywin.
"cutthroat" maybe, although that sounds to subtle for literally blowing all your enemies up and "tyrannic" might be more accurate.

[dsug]

2 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

I agree she doesn't give a fuck about the commoners, but she still has to maintain a somewhat finctioning economy. If only to have a workforce, that can sustain her army.

And revolting smallfolk also means more of her forces are occupied with keeping the peace within KL instead of fighting off her enemies from outside.

Receipts, please. Her short era running Tommens small council had her handing over power to the faith militant to ultimately get herself arrested and paraded naked through the streets by them. Olenna called her stupid and told her how she ruined both their houses to her face last time they spoke and is quite right about that. And all the other people who have witnessed her political maneuvering are pretty much dead now.

So ... not quite sure, where a reputation as either "clever" or "politician" would ever come from, unless people are still somehow projecting those attributes onto House Lannister in general, thanks to Tywin.
"cutthroat" maybe, although that sounds to subtle and simply "tyrannic" might be more accurate.

Idk comments by people like Ned and Cat and Tyrion way back in earlier seasons kind of gave me the feeling that Cersei's kind of known for being power-hungry. People know Cersei is running things S2. In season one, she was kind of the figurehead of House Lannister in the capitol, and embodied everything that made them so infamous. 

If anything else, the people know she's not one to be fucked with. 

[Cron]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't think Cersei has any Baratheon ancestors.  Her father married a Lannister, her grandfather married a Marbrand,  her great-grandfather married a Webber, and her great-great grandfather married a Brax.  Those are all nobility from the Westerlands or Reach, and not royalty, or the families of Lords Paramount.

This is more like the way that in Rome, Byzantium, or Russia, people who were in some way connected to the royal family might make a bid for the Throne, when the outgoing ruler died.

Well, Cersei's father didn't marry a Lannister, Cersei's father WAS a Lannister, Tywin.

As I recall, I believe the Baratheon in Jaime and Cersei's ancestry was an aunt or great aunt or something like that.

I'll have to try to track down the details, but my memory is that a study was done of KNOWN people, and of them, Cersei and Jaime have the best claim after the death of Tommen, b/c of a known Baratheon in their ancestry.

Granted, the connection is pretty remote, but the word "known" is critical up above.  The main Baratheon line is wiped out, and it may be reasonable to assume there are other people with closer relationships to the Baratheons than Cerseif and Jaime, but of KNOWN people, my understanding remains that Cersei and Jaime have the best claim (and that means "Cersei," cuz she's a few minutes older than Jaime) 

[King Ragnar]

5 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, Cersei's father didn't marry a Lannister, Cersei's father WAS a Lannister, Tywin.

Well he wed his first cousin, Joanna Lannister, so basically he wed a Lannister while being a Lannister himself.

 

Lannisterception!

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Ser Bronn Blackfyre said:

Well he wed his first cousin, Joanna Lannister, so basically he wed a Lannister while being a Lannister himself.

 

Lannisterception!

Oh, Joanna was a Lannister even before she married Tywin???

I did not know that.

[Rhollo]

14 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, Cersei's father didn't marry a Lannister, Cersei's father WAS a Lannister, Tywin.

As I recall, I believe the Baratheon in Jaime and Cersei's ancestry was an aunt or great aunt or something like that.

I'll have to try to track down the details, but my memory is that a study was done of KNOWN people, and of them, Cersei and Jaime have the best claim after the death of Tommen, b/c of a known Baratheon in their ancestry.

Granted, the connection is pretty remote, but the word "known" is critical up above.  The main Baratheon line is wiped out, and it may be reasonable to assume there are other people with closer relationships to the Baratheons than Cerseif and Jaime, but of KNOWN people, my understanding remains that Cersei and Jaime have the best claim (and that means "Cersei," cuz she's a few minutes older than Jaime) 

As far is I know the article claiming the Lannisters have some Baratheon in their ancestry a few generations back turned out to be based on a extended family tree from a non-canonical source.

[Rhollo]

15 hours ago, dsug said:

Idk comments by people like Ned and Cat and Tyrion way back in earlier seasons kind of gave me the feeling that Cersei's kind of known for being power-hungry. People know Cersei is running things S2. In season one, she was kind of the figurehead of House Lannister in the capitol, and embodied everything that made them so infamous. 

I'd say the political figureheads for house Lannister were Jeoffrey, Tyrion and Tywin through seasons 2-4. And iirc correctly at least Tywin and Jeoffrey harshly shut her down when she tried to involve herself in politics.

15 hours ago, dsug said:

If anything else, the people know she's not one to be fucked with. 

That I can agree on, if backed into a corner there is nothing she won't do, to survive. But getting backed into these corners was mostly due to her own bad decisions so far.

[Le Cygne]

Among KNOWN people, there's the daughter of the king, Dany. It's known she's alive. 

[Cron]

5 hours ago, Rhollo said:

As far is I know the article claiming the Lannisters have some Baratheon in their ancestry a few generations back turned out to be based on a extended family tree from a non-canonical source.

"Extended family tree" would certainly be correct.

I don't know if it was a non-canon source, though.  Maybe.  If so, I wonder how stuff like this happens, are people just sitting around making fan-fictional family trees??

[Cron]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Among KNOWN people, there's the daughter of the king, Dany. It's known she's alive. 

Well, what time period are you referring to?

Right after Robert's Rebellion, and for about the next 17 years (in the show) Viserys had a better claim than Dany, to the extent that the Targaryens were even "in line" anymore at all.

Once Viserys died, I think the people of Westeros didn't care pretty much at all about the Targaryens, and the Baratheon line became critical to the succession.

But of course it IS a very, very tangled web.  Indeed, I myself was saying up above, among other things, that as I recall the Baratheon claim itself is derived from a Targaryen in the Baratheon ancestry.

Which is maybe part of the point here.  These lines are so tangled that it's certainly imaginable that Cersei is basing her crowning at the end of Season 6 on some formal claim, in addition to the fact that she's there in King's Landing and she's got the power.

[Le Cygne]

Now, since the topic is Cersei becoming queen. Robert is the usurper. Dany will knock Cersei off this season, is my guess.

[dsug]

5 hours ago, Rhollo said:

I'd say the political figureheads for house Lannister were Jeoffrey, Tyrion and Tywin through seasons 2-4. And iirc correctly at least Tywin and Jeoffrey harshly shut her down when she tried to involve herself in politics.

That I can agree on, if backed into a corner there is nothing she won't do, to survive. But getting backed into these corners was mostly due to her own bad decisions so far.

Idk at various points the Northerners (Robb, Cat, etc) make comments referring to "the Queen" antagonizing them, like holding their children hostage. The pyromancers refer to her as Tyrion's "royal sister." Not to mention the Walk of Shame, which proves that the smallfolk felt quite strongly about her. And plus, no one knows what happens at small council meetings. Nobody knows that Tywin told Cersei she sucks, nobody knows that Joffrey was ignoring her. As far as anyone knew, she was just as much involved as anyone. 

Idk I feel like we're going in circles. The only point I was trying to make is that Cersei has been the most consistent and well known political player for the last few years, so with all others dead, some may find it logical that she's next in line. 

Keep in mind this is all in addition to the whole fear aspect. 

[Cron]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Now, since the topic is Cersei becoming queen. Robert is the usurper. Dany will knock Cersei off this season, is my guess.

Well, I think it's a matter of perspective.

To some people, yeah, what you say is true (most notably, Dany and her faction)

But for Cersei and the other people in King's Landing who crowned Cersei, well, no, of course they don't see Dany that way at all, I'm sure.

But as I admitted above, it's a very tangled web, and there can be multiple legitimate ways to look at it.  I've got a feeling, though, that Cersei has made some "claim" that goes beyond merely saying "I'm here in King's Landing, and I've got the power, so might makes right" (my words).

[Le Cygne]

Dany will say Robert was the usurper. Robert took the crown from the Targs. Dany is going to take it back. Cersei has no claim to the throne, she's not a Baratheon. No one crowned her, she just took it. And Dany will take it from her. But Dany will say she's the daughter of the king. Cersei can't say anything but I want it so I took it.

[SeanF]

In the TV Show, there is no-one now who could conceivably have a better claim to the Iron Throne than Dany.  Aerys, Rhaegar, and Viserys are all dead.  Robert and his children are dead.  Stannis, Renly, and Shireen are all dead. 

[BlueNightzx]

Her bad pussy