shmewdog

What's the basis for Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne?

275 posts in this topic

She's the queen because she's the King's last blood relative who's not a fugitive or who swore of all his titles and positions. 

And also because there's no one left alive to challenge her. 

Its the same. A technicality that legitimizes her reign, but everyone really knows it's because of fear and conquest.  

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3 minutes ago, Kusanagi said:

Jaime is one person. If you want to setup social chaos, you need to show the social mentality. Spend 5 minutes to hint that isn't a problem when they have spent equal amount of screen time with Bronn on his sexual conquest.

You've yet to point out why that has to happen in S06E10 and not S07E01.

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1 minute ago, dsug said:

She's the queen because she's the King's last blood relative who's not a fugitive or who swore of all his titles and positions. 

And also because there's no one left alive to challenge her. 

Its the same. A technicality that legitimizes her reign, but everyone really knows it's because of fear and conquest.  

She is not of Baratheon Blood! That's the whole point! She is not in line of succession.

1 minute ago, Lautrec said:

You've yet to point out why that has to happen in S06E10 and not S07E01.

Because of proper storytelling, that's why.

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1 minute ago, Kusanagi said:

Because of proper storytelling, that's why.

Please elaborate.

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14 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

Please elaborate.

Let's see. The next season is a year away, and I as a writer want to give some closure to the audience while maintain tension, and the theme of this episode is about winter has come.

So I would want to spend some time on how society regards the new queen, and what they would do in the coming season wouldn't I? Showing social disgust would reinforce winter has come and things are going to be grim wouldn't it?

Unless, of course, if you don't care about properly setting up the universe, then you can do whatever the hell you want. Fan pandering is considered a sin in writing, but fans love it. You decide.

Edited by Kusanagi

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Her husband and two sons died and she's the closest relative to the line of succession. 

Might Cersie didn't take it you are basically talking about plucking a random bastard. 

Also Robert heavily integrated the Lannister's into his rule. Cersie's kids always represented the lion. So the people were conditioned to associate Lannister's with the crown and everyone in the Robert's immediate family had ascended to the crown, with his two brothers making claims to it. 

 

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27 minutes ago, Kusanagi said:

She is not of Baratheon Blood! That's the whole point! She is not in line of succession.

Because of proper storytelling, that's why.

There is no legitimate Baratheon alive. There are a few recognized bastards. So it's a few bastards vs the mother of the last two kings and wife of the last king. (And in the show we don't even have recognized bastards) 

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32 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

Now you're just complaining for no reason. How is that accepting bad writing? A season has to end somewhere, and this was a great moment for it to end. Why couldn't the setup be in S07E01? And how is Jaime's look at Cersei not foreshadowing?

It was, and that's the conflict they setup because its the only conflict they plan to follow through on.  They won't explore how utterly absurd it is for Cersei to try to claim the throne and rule after destroying all the sources of Lannister power.  The Lannister forces will be as strong as the plot demands (depending on how hard they want to make Dany work for her throne) although I don't know who could be paying them (no Iron Bank, no Lannister gold mines) or why they would have confidence in the people leading them.  Maybe they'll only follow Cersei out of fear.  Fear of... the Lannister army?

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8 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Her husband and two sons died and she's the closest relative to the line of succession. 

Might Cersie didn't take it you are basically talking about plucking a random bastard. 

Also Robert heavily integrated the Lannister's into his rule. Cersie's kids always represented the lion. So the people were conditioned to associate Lannister's with the crown and everyone in the Robert's immediate family had ascended to the crown, with his two brothers making claims to it. 

 

How many time do we have to say, Cerseri is not in line of succession? Baretheon bloodline is in line, Targareyen bloodline is in line, Lannister not. 

Lannister, not matter how close they are to the throne, is only a Great House. They have no legal claim on the throne. 

6 minutes ago, lancerman said:

There is no legitimate Baratheon alive. There are a few recognized bastards. So it's a few bastards vs the mother of the last two kings and wife of the last king. (And in the show we don't even have recognized bastards) 

Then the council or provisional govt would be looking for Baratheon cadet branches, distant relatives or even Targaryen. The best Cersei can do is regent, not queen.

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23 minutes ago, Kusanagi said:

How many time do we have to say, Cerseri is not in line of succession? Baretheon bloodline is in line, Targareyen bloodline is in line, Lannister not. 

Lannister, not matter how close they are to the throne, is only a Great House. They have no legal claim on the throne. 

Then the council or provisional govt would be looking for Baratheon cadet branches, distant relatives or even Targaryen. The best Cersei can do is regent, not queen.

Doesn't matter. There are no legit Baratheons. Doubly so in the show where we have no recognized Baratheon basrards. And if the Targ line mattered, then Dany and Visery's were ahead of Roberrt. 

Of legitimate people who are recognized relatives of the last 3 Kings, Cersie is the closest. 

To our knowledge in this show there is literally one person who can claim blood relation to the line of succession that is actually recognized. And it is an exhiled distant relative ousted by the father of the last two kings. 

A monarchy isn't a scientific line of succession  where their is an intricate legality. Especially in a universe like this where they play so fast and loose with succession laws anyways. It's not like the U.S.  government where the presidency has a line going through virtually every member of the federal government. 

There's a point where Cersie is far and away the closest relative to the royal family and a blood relation to the last two kings and wife to the king before that, where it makes more sense than finding some bastard whose never stepped foot in kings landing.

For political reasons someone could make a claim for one of the basrards, but at that point it's going to be settled in battle not some legal maneuver. It's just not set up that way. 

 

 

 

 

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Delusion and Confusion.   Remaining lords and ladies of Kings Landing might have difficulty at this point who is left in line of succession.

No male heirs of Robert or Stannis uncles have ever been on the show.  

Tommen was Baratheon and Lannister blood so it comes from that sort of reasoning.

Lordship of Casterly Rock also up in the air with Kevin gone.

When this happened in our history it seems whomever had some small claim and an army of sorts would claim the throne.  Sometimes that only lasted until the next claimant with army comes along.  Whomever lasts to pass kingdom to blood heir writes the official history.  Catherine the Great of Russia assumed power by inheriting throne from marriage in the same manner as Cirsei

I think that is what is going on here.  Kings Landing will be left in Ruins like scene from Dany's vision.  It will be under siege from south and Rioting people and avenging Zealots possibly with the Hound among them will overrun from north

Edited by jugdesh258

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8 minutes ago, jugdesh258 said:

Delusion and Confusion.   Remaining lords and ladies of Kings Landing might have difficulty at this point who is left in line of succession.

No male heirs of Robert or Stannis uncles have ever been on the show.  

Tommen was Baratheon and Lannister blood so it comes from that sort of reasoning.

Lordship of Casterly Rock also up in the air with Kevin gone.

When this happened in our history it seems whomever had some small claim and an army of sorts would claim the throne.  Sometimes that only lasted until the next claimant with army comes along.  Whomever lasts to pass kingdom to blood heir writes the official history.  Catherine the Great of Russia assumed power by inheriting throne from marriage in the same manner as Cirsei

I think that is what is going on here.  Kings Landing will be left in Ruins like scene from Dany's vision.  It will be under siege from south and Rioting people and avenging Zealots possibly with the Hound among them will overrun from north

Catherine orchestrated a coup, forced Peter III to abdicate, and her son "with Peter" listed as heir as cover. Cersei has none of that.  

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2 hours ago, Balerion06 said:

Ok, but these writers also just allowed a bastard who had no claim become king in the north.

Ok, I give up. How can you pretend that person “had no claim”?

Once Rickon was killed, FakeJon has the best (apparent) claim to become the Lord of Winterfell. There are no other claimants, and even if you could dig up a fifth cousin thrice removed, his would not have the strength that FakeJon’s claim has, even if his true parentage were known.

Remember that Bael’s bastard son by Lord Stark’s daughter eventually came to rule Winterfell.  And that wasn't even by popular acclaim the way this was. The election makes a difference.

Plus let's be serious here. Martin himself said that:

Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history . . . which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory. 

[long answer elided]

The bottom line, I suppose, is that inheritance was decided as much by politics as by laws. In Westeros and in medieval Europe both.

Those are the facts on the ground, the rules that Martin is playing by. This is not a video game with mechanical laws or physics with natural ones.

That the North chose to make FakeJon the Lord of Winterfell is completely consistent with the rules of Westeros and medieval Europe alike, as Martin explained.  And they’ve made him Lord Stark just as happened with Bael’s bastard son.

Someone different their choice to make him King in the North, setting him at odds with the Iron Throne. It’s true that the Starks were kings for a long time, but not for the last 300 years.  I don’t see why they had to make FakeJon king rather than simply the Lord Stark of Winterfell.

I would think that simply being the Stark in Winterfell would be enough.  But perhaps I'm missing something here.

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14 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Doesn't matter. There are no legit Baratheons. Doubly so in the show where we have no recognized Baratheon basrards. And if the Targ line mattered, then Dany and Visery's were ahead of Roberrt. 

Of legitimate people who are recognized relatives of the last 3 Kings, Cersie is the closest. 

To our knowledge in this show there is literally one person who can claim blood relation to the line of succession that is actually recognized. And it is an exhiled distant relative ousted by the father of the last two kings. 

A monarchy isn't a scientific line of succession  where their is an intricate legality. Especially in a universe like this where they play so fast and loose with succession laws anyways. It's not like the U.S.  government where the presidency has a line going through virtually every member of the federal government. 

There's a point where Cersie is far and away the closest relative to the royal family and a blood relation to the last two kings and wife to the king before that, where it makes more sense than finding some bastard whose never stepped foot in kings landing.

For political reasons someone could make a claim for one of the basrards, but at that point it's going to be settled in battle not some legal maneuver. It's just not set up that way. 

Yes, laws and traditions don't matter in any society, fictional or otherwise.

Cersei is the closest to what? She is not of any royal bloodline, end of story. Succession is about royal bloodline, end of story. 

If you want to say Cersei siege it by force (by force doesn't mean conquest), fine, just show it and show its impact on society.

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Just now, Kusanagi said:

Yes, laws and traditions don't matter in any society, fictional or otherwise.

Cersei is the closest to what? She is not of any royal bloodline, end of story. Succession is about royal bloodline, end of story. 

If you want to say Cersei siege it by force (by force doesn't mean conquest), fine, just show it and show its impact on society.

Okay tell me a character that we know exists that would be able to claim the throne over Cersie in the line of succession that a political council would stop the country to install over Cersei.

It doesn't matter. Daneary's is the only known relative in the show. She's a distant relative and she's exhiled and her father was reviled by the whole of the realm. Every Baratheon we know of is now a bastard (Edric and Mia don't exist in the show to my knowledge) are not recognized. So who gets it?

And in reality, that society is just goin to declare Cersie closest after a certain point. And we are well beyond that point. The only challenger is an exiled usurper.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Kusanagi said:

Yes, laws and traditions don't matter in any society, fictional or otherwise.

Cersei is the closest to what? She is not of any royal bloodline, end of story. Succession is about royal bloodline, end of story. 

If you want to say Cersei siege it by force (by force doesn't mean conquest), fine, just show it and show its impact on society.

It looks like some folks are thinking that bloodline inheritance runs backwards, which is a really weird idea.

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1 minute ago, lancerman said:

And in reality, that society is just goin to declare Cersie closest after a certain point.

Um, closest to what?

  • She has no Targaryen blood.
  • She has no Baratheon blood.

Therefore “closest” cannot possibly apply. 

That's all that matters.

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7 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Okay tell me a character that we know exists that would be able to claim the throne over Cersie in the line of succession that a political council would stop the country to install over Cersei.

It doesn't matter. Daneary's is the only known relative in the show. She's a distant relative and she's exhiled and her father was reviled by the whole of the realm. Every Baratheon we know of is now a bastard (Edric and Mia don't exist in the show to my knowledge) are not recognized. So who gets it?

And in reality, that society is just goin to declare Cersie closest after a certain point. And we are well beyond that point. The only challenger is an exiled usurper.

Which part of maintaining consistency with the story's internal logic you don't understand?

No one is saying someone other than Cerser has to be immediately on the throne. We are saying just do something that is consistent with the story's internal logic, i.e. do what the characters would do in their universe.

Base on the rule of succession in Westros, whoever the provisional govt is would not install Cersei, but look for someone who is suitable and can be legally sit on the throne, i.e someone of royal bloodline.

This period can go on indefinitely, so Cersei can be queen regent to preside over the provisional govt because of Lannister support and so forth.

This is called telling a story with consistent logic.

Edited by Kusanagi

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12 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It looks like some folks are thinking that bloodline inheritance runs backwards, which is a really weird idea.

I can't fathom why they would think that way other than honey-pot rationalising. No succession rule works like that.

Succession always goes to the blood relatives of whoever holding the rights. In case direct blood relatives die out, it would go to uncle, aunts, cousins and so for, but never parents from other side of the family, as they are considered marriage partnets. Marriage partners can however become guardians or regents.

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2 minutes ago, Kusanagi said:

Which part of maintaining consistency with the story's internal logic you don't understand?

No one is saying someone other than Cerser has to be immediately on the throne. We are saying just do something that is consistent with the story's internal logic, i.e. do what the characters would do in their universe.

Base on the rule of succession in Westros, the whoever the provisional govt is would not install Cersei, but look for someone who is suitable and cannot be legally sit on the throne.

This period can go on indefinitely, so Cersei can be queen regent to preside over the provisional govt because of Lannister support and so forth.

This is called telling a story with consistent logic.

It's a feudal a system!!! Do you even understand this show? Especially since everything known about the Iron Throne and it's history is basically a cursory look in how flippant the line of succession is.

The government is a king the small council who he selects himself. Then there are a bunch of Great Houses who swear fealty to the king and run their own regions with their own autonomy as long as they are loyal. They aren't part of some organized structure.

What do you even think the "provisional government" consists of? There is no formal structure to say "this is who rules when the king is to young". The closest thing we ever got to that in the books or show was Robert saying "Ned's king until Joffrey's old enough" on his goddamn death bed. That was the provisional government. And it was ignored the second that ONE PERSON tried to wield that power. Multiple times in the history of this country a ruler died and their was a massive dispute over throne that was settled in battle. Not legality, battle.

So let's go back through this again. With everyone in the Baratheon line dead, and the closest relative to the Baratheon line was exhiled by a previous king, who is the closest to the line of succession that would have the clearest path to the throne? It's Cersie.

If you want to get into the internal logic of the show. Robert was a usurper who tried to say he was a relative to the Targaryens, despite stepping over all living Targaryens. Joffrey was an unknowing usurper who stepped over the appointed ruler of the last king before he came of age, so he even broke the last king's law before ascending to the throne. Then Cersie was the closest relative to the last king who died with one of his bloodlines being extinct.

Seriously who do you think this provisional government is that is going to step in and take control of everything to look for every last living Baratheon blood relative they can find?

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