shmewdog

What's the basis for Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne?

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None of it makes any sense, and that's all there is to it. 

It just is what they wrote because "muh dramatic plot"

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Nitpicking the gaping hole now.

Why would Cersei wear black? If she wanted to reinforce the idea of legitimate succession, she would wear red and gold, as a representation of the symbiosis of House Lannister and House Baratheon.

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I think its the same way Donella Hornwood can claim the Hornwood lands after her husband and son died fighting for Robb. She certainly didn't have a direct claim based on linage, but because there weren't any other Hornwood relatives around, she was therefore allowed to inherit her husbands lands and title.

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They needed to reduce the actors for money reasons.

Seriously now, I don't think that Cersei used a basis, because she is mad, or at this point Westeros or KL care about who is the King. The city is almost destroyed and there is no Realm.

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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Well her killing the high sparrow, his cronies, the queen & her popular family and blowing up the sept of baelor should have been more than enough for the remaining people of kings landing to denounce and reject her as queen but oh well shes one of DB's favourites so forget that because queen cersei is a more shocking cliffhanger than fugitive Cersei.

Edited by Ruhail

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2 hours ago, Kusanagi said:

Nitpicking the gaping hole now.

Why would Cersei wear black? If she wanted to reinforce the idea of legitimate succession, she would wear red and gold, as a representation of the symbiosis of House Lannister and House Baratheon.

But its realistic that the richest most prominent medieval type noblemen/women would wear blacks and browns /S

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21 hours ago, Kusanagi said:

Let's see. The next season is a year away, and I as a writer want to give some closure to the audience while maintain tension, and the theme of this episode is about winter has come.

So I would want to spend some time on how society regards the new queen, and what they would do in the coming season wouldn't I? Showing social disgust would reinforce winter has come and things are going to be grim wouldn't it?

Unless, of course, if you don't care about properly setting up the universe, then you can do whatever the hell you want. Fan pandering is considered a sin in writing, but fans love it. You decide.

There was closure, and there was tension. You'll see the rest in S07E01. Again, your complaint is completely pointless.

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20 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Ok, I give up. How can you pretend that person “had no claim”?

Once Rickon was killed, FakeJon has the best (apparent) claim to become the Lord of Winterfell. There are no other claimants, and even if you could dig up a fifth cousin thrice removed, his would not have the strength that FakeJon’s claim has, even if his true parentage were known.

Remember that Bael’s bastard son by Lord Stark’s daughter eventually came to rule Winterfell.  And that wasn't even by popular acclaim the way this was. The election makes a difference.

Plus let's be serious here. Martin himself said that:

Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history . . . which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory. 

[long answer elided]

The bottom line, I suppose, is that inheritance was decided as much by politics as by laws. In Westeros and in medieval Europe both.

Those are the facts on the ground, the rules that Martin is playing by. This is not a video game with mechanical laws or physics with natural ones.

That the North chose to make FakeJon the Lord of Winterfell is completely consistent with the rules of Westeros and medieval Europe alike, as Martin explained.  And they’ve made him Lord Stark just as happened with Bael’s bastard son.

Someone different their choice to make him King in the North, setting him at odds with the Iron Throne. It’s true that the Starks were kings for a long time, but not for the last 300 years.  I don’t see why they had to make FakeJon king rather than simply the Lord Stark of Winterfell.

I would think that simply being the Stark in Winterfell would be enough.  But perhaps I'm missing something here.

I mainly want to address the no other claimants comment. Let me preface this by saying I don't think the the show really cares about rules of succession.

That being said. There are several other claimants in show. Namely Bran, Sansa, and Arya.

Jon is there with Sansa, who has a more legitimate claim in 2 ways, she is a real Stark and she just won Winterfell by conquest. The Vale forces were sent by her cousin to aid her and she won the battle for WF with those forces. 

But that isn't as good a claim as Bran, who is the direct male heir to Robb for KitN - which is what the Northern Lords really want to restore, not just Warden of the North/Lord of Winterfell. And Jon knows Bran is alive. But I can understand if we want to say Bran is missing or lost. So then we need to go to Sansa.

Arya would be last. She, like Bran is also presumed lost, so in-universe it makes sense if characters don't acknowledge her. But we as the audience know that, like Bran, she might turn up at WF before this is all said and done.

Jon's true parentage should have no bearing, he would still be a bastard unless Howland Reed shows up with a tale about a marriage.

Jon even mentions in epsisode that he is having the lord's chambers prepared for Sansa. The White Wolf KitN moment was a made for TV, feel good moment. But I just have a hunch that the Jon we know won't be screwing over his half-siblings. (even if they are actually his cousins)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lautrec said:

There was closure, and there was tension. You'll see the rest in S07E01. Again, your complaint is completely pointless.

Sure, with lots and lots of bad storytelling too.

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1 hour ago, Snoop Arryn said:

I mainly want to address the no other claimants comment. Let me preface this by saying I don't think the the show really cares about rules of succession.

That being said. There are several other claimants in show. Namely Bran, Sansa, and Arya.

Jon is there with Sansa, who has a more legitimate claim in 2 ways, she is a real Stark and she just won Winterfell by conquest. The Vale forces were sent by her cousin to aid her and she won the battle for WF with those forces. 

But that isn't as good a claim as Bran, who is the direct male heir to Robb for KitN - which is what the Northern Lords really want to restore, not just Warden of the North/Lord of Winterfell. And Jon knows Bran is alive. But I can understand if we want to say Bran is missing or lost. So then we need to go to Sansa.

Arya would be last. She, like Bran is also presumed lost, so in-universe it makes sense if characters don't acknowledge her. But we as the audience know that, like Bran, she might turn up at WF before this is all said and done.

Jon's true parentage should have no bearing, he would still be a bastard unless Howland Reed shows up with a tale about a marriage.

Jon even mentions in epsisode that he is having the lord's chambers prepared for Sansa. The White Wolf KitN moment was a made for TV, feel good moment. But I just have a hunch that the Jon we know won't be screwing over his half-siblings. (even if they are actually his cousins)

If Sansa renounces her claim, then Jon can be deemed the next suitable candidate among the lords, as others are MIA or too young to rule. There could be disagreements, and conflicts among the lords and some will try to persuade Sansa to do otherwise as they have sons of marriageable age so on and so forth.

The only problem I have is Jon being called White Wolf, and as we all know there is only one White Wolf, and that's Geralt of Rivia. 

Edited by Kusanagi

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At the end of the day, Cersei is queen because she said so and no one was alive to disagree. Everyone was too terrified of her to challenge her reign. 

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I guess there aren't many Crusader Kings players here. There's nothing strange in Cersei claim (if you consider that far removed Baratheon male parents who may have a claim don't exist in the show).

Westeros system is agnatic-cognatic primogeniture (female inherit if there's no male at same degree of blood tie).

Cersei is Tommen's heir as male line Baratheon is extinct and she's Tommen closest parent (one degree closer than Jaime who is officially his uncle, but is next in succession line now, being Cersei's heir)

 

Edited by Lord Freypie

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Royal succession rights were based on the idea of "magical" blood descent. Cersei has no Targaryen blood, so she has no legitimate right to the throne. (Unless there is a connection far in the past, but that would be trumped by the more recent connections of House Tarth. Selwyn Tarth might have a claim.) (Property rights are different, so the Hornwood case doesn't count.) She's sitting on it because "possession is nine-tenths of the law" and apparently the one person with the say so is allowing it. That person is the Commander of the Gold Cloaks, whoever the hell he is. His people guard the Red Keep, and try to enforce law in the city. He literally controls access to the throne. If you want to sit the throne, you have to get past him. And with Tommen dead, no one can fire him.

We don't know who that is. We did not see Cersei having discussions with him after Tommen's death. In theory, he shouldn't be paying any attention to her, since she was totally discredited by her confession and Walk of Shame. The CotGC should coordinate with the heads of the Paramount Houses and call a Great Council. If he doesn't call a council, someone else will. Or there will be war.

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Cersei could possibly be making a claim as a dowager queen, that is she claims it through Robert as his wife - its a pretty weak one though but could work since house Baratheon seems to be extinct. Cersei might hope that the fourth cousins or something will squabble over Storms End while she keep the throne.

In reality, this is when a great council should be summoned to discuss their options.Compare the situation with Lady Hornwoods. 

Edited by Protagoras

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7 hours ago, dsug said:

At the end of the day, Cersei is queen because she said so and no one was alive to disagree. Everyone was too terrified of her to challenge her reign. 

^^^ This basically. The idea that the the common folk with rise up -- no they don't really care about who is king or queen or understand about succession laws. All of the potentially powerful people who might oppose her were at the trial and are now dead. Anyone else who might oppose her who is still alive likely would be scared sh!tless of trying to oppose her -- and to what end? It is not like anyone has a competing claim to bring forth.

It is true that Cersei has no technical legal claim -- but she has the power and she will claim -- if challenged -- that she is the only living relative of the last King -- even though everyone knows that succession does not work that way. Irrelevant. There simply is no one in KL with the incentive or ability to challenge her.

But what is she really Queen of? She is Queen of the Crowlands and the westerlands, maybe -- and perhaps the stormlands but that situation has been left completely unclear. Maybe parts of the riverlands -- but after Arya took out the senior Freys, the return of the Tullys to power might be next -- we don't know.

As for set up and pay off -- I think we had plenty. The show runners did not want more of a set-up because they wanted her coronation to be as much of a surprise as possible. But I think that the death of everyone else relevant in KL -- and our knowledge of how crazy and power hungry Cersei can be is foreshadowing enough. And again, I believe that the fall-out will be from other regions and Dany, and not from within KL (although Jaime did not look none too happy).. There simply is no one left in KL with any incentive to oppose her. The risk is too high and the potential benefit too low.

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It's kind of obvious from the mood in the throne room that no one think's Cersei is the rightful queen. That said, Cersei is the most powerful noble left in King's landing. With Kevan's death she controls the Lannister guards, UnGregor, the Kingsguard, and Qyburn's whisperers, so she took the throne and no one inside the city dared to oppose her.  

If there's any legal basis at all, I believe that with the death of the King and the Hand, the surviving members of the small council are in charge, those being Qyburn and whoever replaced Jaime as LC of the Kingsguard. Rather than choose some Baratheon cousin thrice-removed or call a great council, they choose to crown Cersei.

 

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Come on, you are discussing the show. Cersei killed all her enemies. All of them. Nobody is rising against her and there is no smallfolk in this show that matters. Cersei herself tells us she killed all the sparrows and all his soldiers.

She rules now supreme until such time as Dany casts her down. And that will be next season.

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5 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

^^^ This basically. The idea that the the common folk with rise up -- no they don't really care about who is king or queen or understand about succession laws. All of the potentially powerful people who might oppose her were at the trial and are now dead. Anyone else who might oppose her who is still alive likely would be scared sh!tless of trying to oppose her -- and to what end? It is not like anyone has a competing claim to bring forth.

It is true that Cersei has no technical legal claim -- but she has the power and she will claim -- if challenged -- that she is the only living relative of the last King -- even though everyone knows that succession does not work that way. Irrelevant. There simply is no one in KL with the incentive or ability to challenge her.

But what is she really Queen of? She is Queen of the Crowlands and the westerlands, maybe -- and perhaps the stormlands but that situation has been left completely unclear. Maybe parts of the riverlands -- but after Arya took out the senior Freys, the return of the Tullys to power might be next -- we don't know.

As for set up and pay off -- I think we had plenty. The show runners did not want more of a set-up because they wanted her coronation to be as much of a surprise as possible. But I think that the death of everyone else relevant in KL -- and our knowledge of how crazy and power hungry Cersei can be is foreshadowing enough. And again, I believe that the fall-out will be from other regions and Dany, and not from within KL (although Jaime did not look none too happy).. There simply is no one left in KL with any incentive to oppose her. The risk is too high and the potential benefit too low.

And all the nobles and lordlings are there to do what? What happens to the City Guard and Maseters who are well versed in the laws? The religious orders and Sparrows just died off or renounced their faiths? People suddenly drop their beliefs and traditions? Like they wouldn't try to flee because of all the chaos going around?

I can accept they all bend their knees for argument's sake, but any good storyteller has to show that to us. I am not asking a whole scene, just give us 3-5 minutes about the process, political dealings and how commoners react to their current perils. No, you cannot wait for he season next year, and knowing their track records, it is highly likely they will not do anything of the sort.

It is the job of the writers to show that to the audience, and we shouldn't need to rationalize it for them. Why make up your own story to fill the writers' incompetency?

It's amazing how standard has dropped so low. One can love something despite all its flaws, but defending, rationalizing the flaws is a completely different issue.

Furthermore, one can either argue Cersei ascends by coup or by line of succession with legal claim, but both cannot be true at the same time. A coup is by definitely illegal in respects of succession rules, and having a legal claim is having a legal claim. Martial power can augment the claim but it is not a component of the claim.

The legal scenario is, like many have said, a Great Council will be called and Cersei can use her armed thugs to secure her place as dowager, regent or head of small council as dowager. And the show has to show the process to us as well in order to say it is good storytelling. 

Edited by Kusanagi

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Essentially, she claimed the throne via power is power.

Those who could challenge her authority, are dead. Its just the Lanister forces in KL (and Lanister gold bribed city watch).

Truth be told, she is only queen  of the Westerlands, Crownlands, and maybe Stormlands(think of them as vichy france, yes allied with Cersei, but only until they have the chance not to be).

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10 hours ago, Kusanagi said:

Furthermore, one can either argue Cersei ascends by coup or by line of succession with legal claim, but both cannot be true at the same time. A coup is by definitely illegal in respects of succession rules, and having a legal claim is having a legal claim. Martial power can augment the claim but it is not a component of the claim.

The legal scenario is, like many have said, a Great Council will be called and Cersei can use her armed thugs to secure her place as dowager, regent or head of small council as dowager. And the show has to show the process to us as well in order to say it is good storytelling. 

Nope, you can have a weak claim - like that of a dowager - and still take the throne by conquest. Henry Tudor's claim was a joke compared to the remaining male and female members of House York yet he pushed it all the same and afterwards ruled by right of conquest as well as right of blood, making it clear that the legal claim of his wife (which was much better than his own) didn't matter at all as far as he was concerned (he even got himself crowned before he married Elizabeth of York).

Moreover, conquest and usurpation both do not need claims in any case. A usurper or conqueror can have a legal claim but he doesn't need one. All that matters is that he is successful.

The idea that there would have to be a Great Council to settle the succession after the death of King Tommen is ridiculous. Great Councils are called by the convenience of the people in power. Maegor the Cruel never called a Great Council, and neither did Otto Hightower, Rhaenyra Targaryen, or Robert Baratheon. Not to mention Ned Stark, Cersei Lannister, Stannis and Renly Baratheon after the death of King Robert. None of these people even thought about calling a Great Council. Ned intended disinherit Cersei's children and offer the throne to Stannis, Stannis and Renly just gathered their armies, and Cersei staged a coup - like show Cersei did again when she took the throne.

Cersei will be cast down by Dany in the show, and that is going to happen next season. They won't waste time with legal prattle or talk about rebellions. Perhaps it will get mentioned that some terrible accident led to the explosion of the Great Sept. I don't expect that to happen but there is no evidence/proof that Cersei had anything to do with what happened up there. If there is somebody to blame it is the Mad King.

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