A moment for Margaery

[Sigrid]

16 hours ago, Risto said:

Originally, Dormer was copycatting her own work from "The Tudors" as there were several lines of Anne Boleyn and Margaery that were the same. But, as it progressed, Margaery became a character of its own. And it was a version of the character that you could have preferred over the book counterpart. There were some moments where the plot demanded of her to be as stupid as possible, plus the logic of her arrest was shady at least, but nonetheless, she shall be missed. Dormer was a nice addition to the cast.

 I'm willing to cut Natalie Dormer some slack on the similarities to her performance on the Tudors b/c I firmly believe that a lot of Maragery's plot (particularly as it was done in the book) purposefully echos Anne Boleyn anyway.  That might even have been part of the reason that she was cast.

I agree that in time she really brought a lot of nuance to a character that we really didn't know much about as we are just seeing her actions through other people's experience and finally got to see what made her tick.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Sigrid said:

 I'm willing to cut Natalie Dormer some slack on the similarities to her performance on the Tudors b/c I firmly believe that a lot of Maragery's plot (particularly as it was done in the book) purposefully echos Anne Boleyn anyway.  That might even have been part of the reason that she was cast.

I would agree, but it was more than just a drawn inspiration or a bit of echo. I remember in Season 2 how several Margaery lines overlapped with the lines she had in Tudors. Like, seriously, the very same lines. It needed some time for me to look at her as Margaery. not just some Westerosi version of Anne Boleyn (although I admit two women share similarities).

 

[Vastet]

She failed to identify the source of power of the Faith and attack it.

No she didn't. The High Sparrow was the source of power, and she was in no position to attack him.

If she had she would have accepted the "walk of shame", but made it into a Lady Godiva moment to shame the Faith (assuming they even let the Faith get that far, she took the wrong approach to Tommy as well).  

Wouldn't accomplish what you think it would. There's a reason Margery's grandmother refused to accept Margery taking a walk of atonement: it strips you of power and makes you a joke for the common people. If Margery took the walk, he influence would be killed instantly. She certainly wouldn't gain influence.

If she hadn't convinced Tommen to sign up, she'd still be in a cell as an enemy, instead of out of her cell and in a position to save herself and Loras.

She was She was beloved by the masses and even managed to rehabilitate Joff's image with them for a short while, she'd have been equally able to turn the Faith's image.

No. The High Sparrow did more for the masses than she did. You might be able to get whores and alcoholics to turn against the High Sparrow, but not the average citizen. The faith has been around for millennia. Margery hasn't had 2 decades of life. One person will never bring down a religion. People more powerful than queens have tried and failed throughout history. The only thing that ever successfully killed a religion was another religion.

[no_one_...]

2 hours ago, Vastet said:

No she didn't. The High Sparrow was the source of power, and she was in no position to attack him.
 

Wouldn't accomplish what you think it would. There's a reason Margery's grandmother refused to accept Margery taking a walk of atonement: it strips you of power and makes you a joke for the common people. If Margery took the walk, he influence would be killed instantly. She certainly wouldn't gain influence.

If she hadn't convinced Tommen to sign up, she'd still be in a cell as an enemy, instead of out of her cell and in a position to save herself and Loras.
 

No. The High Sparrow did more for the masses than she did. You might be able to get whores and alcoholics to turn against the High Sparrow, but not the average citizen. The faith has been around for millennia. Margery hasn't had 2 decades of life. One person will never bring down a religion. People more powerful than queens have tried and failed throughout history. The only thing that ever successfully killed a religion was another religion.

1.  The High Sparrow's power came from the masses.  In particular as a moral counter balance to the evils of war initiated by the nobles.  It's why C tried to use him and threw the previous High Sparrow in the Dungeons, named him High Sparrow and armed the Faith against her rivals.  The title High Sparrow was not nearly as powerful as it had become until this happened.  The Lannesters had burned their bridges w/the masses the Tyrell's didn't.  The Tryrell's provided the food for everyone.  The Tryell's Marg in particular made a point of engaging the masses.  They had sway with them just as much if not more than the High Sparrow.  

2. Marg wasn't viewed by the masses in the same light as C.  The Tyrell's could have easily imported their own "small people" into KL and swayed others to view the walk of shame for what it was.  Not an act to be penitent before the gods, but a way for a cruel "small man" to exert power on one of the few good Houses and in particular a good Noble.  The High Sparrow probably knew this which is why he manipulated her and the King to acquire more power by another means.  Not to mention he'd have risked all out war if she did walk which the Sparrows would have lost despite the masses support which would have turned.

3. Not all of the of the Faith are the same this set of FM.  This FM group spent far more time punishing the hypocrisy of the nobles than building/rebuilding anything for the masses.  Again the Tyrells haven't been shown even if self serving to be anything other than gracious and generous in the interactions w/the masses.  You seem to be confusing the sect w/the FM w/the whole of the religion. 

 

[BeeStark]

I'm usually not into the manipulative and cunning type of characters but Margery was an exception. While she was all that, she also had a good heart and was very smart. I will miss her.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

21 hours ago, Ranger Kragin said:

Are we really sure that she's dead? Even in real life there were suvivors in the WTC after it collapsed on 9/11. The High Sparrow exploded, no discussion on that, but Margery and Loras? Don't know.

I thought it was pretty clear that everyone in the sept was vaporized as the sept itself exploded, with enough force to obliterate the surrounding buildings and launch a bell weighing several tons half a mile or more into the streets of KL.

Survivors in the WTC buildings is the wrong analogy. She could no more survive the blast any more than the people in the planes that hit the WTC buildings.

[I love Cersei]

On 29. Juni 2016 at 3:23 AM, Sigrid said:

Poor Margaery.  She was still the smartest person in the room, but unfortunately the room got blown up.

First I like to say that I loved Dormer’s performance through all of Game of Thrones, she's a wonderful actress. Her character however in my opinion wasn't smart in that scene, but more like clairvoyant? Supernatural? How many concealable weapons of mass destruction were there in Westeros that she had that reaction of instant panic? A reasonable person would have guessed that Cersei was presently fleeing Kings Landing (or that she made some hopeless last desperate attempt attacking the sept with a small host of fighters still loyal to her at the very best, but even that seems unlikely). But how would Margaery deduce that all the people in that sept, including the Lannisters, were in great and instant danger? And that it was the best thing to get out of the sept immediately instead of hiding inside? I don't buy it.

But I would very much like to have learned what her plans were regarding the Sparrow situation, her brother's situation, and all - she clearly had some.

[VladimirDulud]

6 hours ago, no_one_... said:

2. Marg wasn't viewed by the masses in the same light as C.  The Tyrell's could have easily imported their own "small people" into KL and swayed others to view the walk of shame for what it was.  Not an act to be penitent before the gods, but a way for a cruel "small man" to exert power on one of the few good Houses and in particular a good Noble.  The High Sparrow probably knew this which is why he manipulated her and the King to acquire more power by another means.  Not to mention he'd have risked all out war if she did walk which the Sparrows would have lost despite the masses support which would have turned.

 

 

I also agree that if Marge had done the walk of shame, the masses would have responded with generosity to her. And think about the way that scene would have played out dramatically; the show would have echoed seasons past when we first see Margaery talking to the street kids. Her much talked about PR savvy was on full display then, and it would have been lovely to see the writers of the show hark back to that scene and give us a payoff. I imagine them parting like the red sea for her to walk , and instead of garbage they'd throw roses at her feet. She'd end her walk by walking straight into Olenna and Mace's arms. I can truly picture that as an alternative comeuppance moment for the Tyrells.

Yes, it would ignite Cersei's ire to no end...

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

On 30/06/2016 at 6:36 AM, Ranger Kragin said:

Are we really sure that she's dead? Even in real life there were suvivors in the WTC after it collapsed on 9/11. The High Sparrow exploded, no discussion on that, but Margery and Loras? Don't know.

ok. this is too much. if she's not dead, the must be a dragon.

[MoreOrLess]

3 hours ago, I love Cersei said:

First I like to say that I loved Dormer’s performance through all of Game of Thrones, she's a wonderful actress. Her character however in my opinion wasn't smart in that scene, but more like clairvoyant? Supernatural? How many concealable weapons of mass destruction were there in Westeros that she had that reaction of instant panic? A reasonable person would have guessed that Cersei was presently fleeing Kings Landing (or that she made some hopeless last desperate attempt attacking the sept with a small host of fighters still loyal to her at the very best, but even that seems unlikely). But how would Margaery deduce that all the people in that sept, including the Lannisters, were in great and instant danger? And that it was the best thing to get out of the sept immediately instead of hiding inside? I don't buy it.

But I would very much like to have learned what her plans were regarding the Sparrow situation, her brother's situation, and all - she clearly had some.

Wildfire of course isn't some great unknown as it was at the start of the show as Tyrion had used its openly in the recent past so I don't think Margery guessing that it might be used here is really THAT unlikely whether she knew about Aery's original plot or not. You can see with the High Sparrows look when the blast sounds start that he knows whats about to happen, the difference is that Margery doesn't underestimate Cersei's ability to be that ruthless the way he does.

I was actually quite surprised that Margery got a relatively quick/clean death, partly due to the Anne Boleyn link and partly due to the nature of the show and a good looking actress I kind of expected a more gruesome end, Ned style head on a Spike, crushed by the Mountain or indeed in this case getting far enough away from the Sept to avoid instant death but not to escape a nastier more prolonged one.

[Count Winter]

I don't know what to think of Margery. I thought there was more to come from her. But in the end she underestimated Cersei, maybe that is a lesson for all of us: Cersei is not done yet. Anyway, Margery was basically just a golddigger and just as Cersei she was only after the power of being a queen.

[SeanF]

I liked Margaery.

But, neither she nor the High Sparrow ever thought that Cersei would go as far as to wipe out hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people to regain power. 

[nara]

On 6/30/2016 at 3:18 AM, dornishdragon said:

I also liked Margaery, she was smart, cunning but cared about the smallfolk unlike Cersei. 

I'm not so sure she did care that much abut the smallfolk .  In ACOK, the Tyrells starved KL before they gave out bread in the name of Lady Margaery. I think she plays to the smallfolk and definitely cares more than Cersei, but that's not saying much.

On 6/30/2016 at 10:37 AM, Cron said:

Good stuff there.

I always thought the High Sparrow was off the charts foolish to think he could humiliate Cersei the way he did and everything would continue to be just dandy.

In fact, I believe it was a miracle for the High Sparrow that Jaime did not kill him on sight at Myrcella's wake.

Jaime seems to be all talk, especially since he lost his sword hand. I would blame it on D&D, but he's kinda  like that in the books too. (I don't think these next comments are book spoilers...) He repeatedly said he would kill Robert but did nothing. He never did anything to Lancel, Kettleblack, Moonboy, or Cersei.

That being said, HS is just another megalomaniac in my opinion.

16 hours ago, no_one_... said:

1.  The High Sparrow's power came from the masses.  In particular as a moral counter balance to the evils of war initiated by the nobles.  It's why C tried to use him and threw the previous High Sparrow in the Dungeons, named him High Sparrow and armed the Faith against her rivals.  The title High Sparrow was not nearly as powerful as it had become until this happened.  The Lannesters had burned their bridges w/the masses the Tyrell's didn't.  The Tryrell's provided the food for everyone.  The Tryell's Marg in particular made a point of engaging the masses.  They had sway with them just as much if not more than the High Sparrow.  

2. Marg wasn't viewed by the masses in the same light as C.  The Tyrell's could have easily imported their own "small people" into KL and swayed others to view the walk of shame for what it was.  Not an act to be penitent before the gods, but a way for a cruel "small man" to exert power on one of the few good Houses and in particular a good Noble.  The High Sparrow probably knew this which is why he manipulated her and the King to acquire more power by another means.  Not to mention he'd have risked all out war if she did walk which the Sparrows would have lost despite the masses support which would have turned.

3. Not all of the of the Faith are the same this set of FM.  This FM group spent far more time punishing the hypocrisy of the nobles than building/rebuilding anything for the masses.  Again the Tyrells haven't been shown even if self serving to be anything other than gracious and generous in the interactions w/the masses.  You seem to be confusing the sect w/the FM w/the whole of the religion. 

 

I don't think Margaery's walk of atonement was at all justified. If I recall correctly, her sins were related to enabling Loras, right? So they were going to parade her naked through the streets and they didn't plan to do the same to Loras? BS.  But if they had made her walk, I think she would have played the injured innocent far better than Cersei, because she really was innocent of anything other than loving her brother. Plus, she is more adept at managing her image than Cersei, who genuinely doesn't care what anyone other Jaime or Tywin thinks.  Off topic, but in retrospect, the fact that Margaery emerged from the sept with her hair intact should have been a sign that she was not going to do the walk.

[Solstice]

6 hours ago, Count Winter said:

I don't know what to think of Margery. I thought there was more to come from her. But in the end she underestimated Cersei, maybe that is a lesson for all of us: Cersei is not done yet. Anyway, Margery was basically just a golddigger and just as Cersei she was only after the power of being a queen.

 

Yes, but they don't have that many career choices.  Cersei and Margaery are the daughters of great houses, Most of these women (and men too)  are trapped in marriages without love. So why should they marry men from lesser houses, if they don't love them and lose power on top of that?

I think it is a bit unfair to call them golddigger. Both families more or less expected from their daughters to marry a powerful men. And being queen is  one of the few life goals they can choose for themselves.

 

[Anarres]

On 29-6-2016 at 3:23 AM, Sigrid said:

I believe it was a the AV Club Experts review that described Margaery as being a great game player who was getting her pieces all arranged and Cersei was more the type to go crazy and just flip over the board.   Pretty apt I'd say.

Quite so; although Cersei was also quite content to play the game and exploit its most obvious loophole: Trial by Combat. The Faith and those seeking to rise on that tide would have done well to look beyond the immediate meaning of her words 'I choose violence'. They managed to take away the Trial by Combat, but by that time it was established that Cersei didn't plan on going down in peace. They badly underestimated her, which is all the more surprising as Jamie Lannister had already vowed to the High Sparrow's face that 'Every last sparrow will die before Margaery Tyrell walks down that street'. Did they think the Lannisters would just stand by as they, what, schemed to have Cersei executed?

As far as flipping the board is concerned, Cersei did always say she listened to her father most of all his three children, and he probably told them the same tale he told Arya, that 'Aegon Targaryen changed the rules.'

[Sigrid]

12 hours ago, I love Cersei said:

First I like to say that I loved Dormer’s performance through all of Game of Thrones, she's a wonderful actress. Her character however in my opinion wasn't smart in that scene, but more like clairvoyant? Supernatural? How many concealable weapons of mass destruction were there in Westeros that she had that reaction of instant panic? A reasonable person would have guessed that Cersei was presently fleeing Kings Landing (or that she made some hopeless last desperate attempt attacking the sept with a small host of fighters still loyal to her at the very best, but even that seems unlikely). But how would Margaery deduce that all the people in that sept, including the Lannisters, were in great and instant danger? And that it was the best thing to get out of the sept immediately instead of hiding inside? I don't buy it.

But I would very much like to have learned what her plans were regarding the Sparrow situation, her brother's situation, and all - she clearly had some.

Maybe her grandmother mentioned before she left town that she had told Cersei to flee and Cersei was having none of it. Maybe she was around when the sparrows reported that Cersei would "choose violence"

I like to think Margaery was so successful b/c she was a pretty good judge of people, and she knew Cersei was taking the "fight" rather than "flight" option.

Did she know there was as you say a WMD under the sept?  Probably not, but she was smart enough to put together that Cersei wasn't there, Tommen wasn't there, and conveniently all of Cersei's enemies were in one place, and it's been made pretty clear that Cersei cares about herself more than anyone else, even other Lannisters.

But then maybe I'm just making excuses for a favorite character  

[Dalia]

She'll be missed.  The entire Kingslanding sequence was chilling.

[nara]

28 minutes ago, Sigrid said:

Maybe her grandmother mentioned before she left town that she had told Cersei to flee and Cersei was having none of it. Maybe she was around when the sparrows reported that Cersei would "choose violence"

I like to think Margaery was so successful b/c she was a pretty good judge of people, and she knew Cersei was taking the "fight" rather than "flight" option.

Did she know there was as you say a WMD under the sept?  Probably not, but she was smart enough to put together that Cersei wasn't there, Tommen wasn't there, and conveniently all of Cersei's enemies were in one place, and it's been made pretty clear that Cersei cares about herself more than anyone else, even other Lannisters.

But then maybe I'm just making excuses for a favorite character  

I agree, she didn't need to know about the WMD to be worried. Cersei could have had loyalist troops block the exits and set the sept on fire the old fashioned way and they would all be trapped inside. Also, I think very few people inside had weapons, so perhaps they could easily be surrounded and killed Red Wedding style with people scaling walls and shooting arrows and such.

[nara]

I do wish Loras had done something useful in the end, like trying to shield his sister. It's a pity that to make Marg strong they had to make him weak.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I miss Marg so bad already. I loved Marg