Why Jon Snow deserves to be recognized as the decisive hero of the series.

[blckp]

he deserved death for his stupidity , asking night watch borthers to break their oath and fight for him with boltons

of course his plot armor will resurrect him , it already happened in tv show

[ser charles candle]

He asked, because Ramsay threatened all of them not just him. It seems as though making bad decisions only get Starks[including jon] killed. Danny gets great plot armor, Jamie does too.

Must be nice notbeing a stark.

[Stag_legion]

The only problem I have With Jon Snow is how he is seemingly destined to be King. If Jon had stayed with the watch instead I would have appreciated his arc much more.

For a series that so realistic in its narrative, Jon becoming King doesn't mesh with the rest of the story. Its like the story is rewarding this guy for being good, while the same hasn't happened for everyone else.

[teej6]

On June 30, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Minsc said:

Jon is more of a Mary Sue than Dany.

Also Dany's story has at least of number of awesome moments while Jon's biggest highlight seems to be executing a C-list (at best) villain.

It's all about spectacle and being badass isn't it? It's strange how people think being good is boring. A character has to be grey or morally ambiguous to be interesting. I don't care if Jon is following the typical hidden prince, reluctant hero arc, what matters is GRRM's development of his character, which I find terribly good and interesting. And as a mature reader, I don't need the character's story to have "awesome moments" to keep me interested or entertained. In ASOIAF world, where most of the main characters seek power or are motivated by selfish motives you see one character that neither seeks power or is motivated to act based on self interest and to me this is interesting. It's not like Jon doesn't have self doubt or isn't tempted to take the easier path. In fact he's filled with self doubt and internal conflict but chooses as best he can to do right by his family, friends, his men. He lets the wildlings in because he sees them as humans and not in the context of us vs them. 

It says something about our world today that people can't appreciate goodness or selflessness in a fictional character and I don't think it has anything to do with being realistic as there are many good and selfless people in the real world. Instead, I think it has to do with how the media, movies, music and other forms of entertainment today idolize being ruthless, vengeful, self centered, and badass as virtues. As much as everyone thinks GRRM is out to destroy fantasy tropes, I think in Jon's case he is following the monomyth, which btw was not created by fantasy literature but has been used for millenia in myths and storytelling. 

[teej6]

4 hours ago, Stag_legion said:

The only problem I have With Jon Snow is how he is seemingly destined to be King. If Jon had stayed with the watch instead I would have appreciated his arc much more.

For a series that so realistic in its narrative, Jon becoming King doesn't mesh with the rest of the story. Its like the story is rewarding this guy for being good, while the same hasn't happened for everyone else.

It hasn't happened for everyone else because they weren't central to the story. And the story isn't over so we don't know if all the good guys except Jon will be punished for their virtues. Well for that matter, we don't even know if Jon will sit the IT or if he'll survive in the end. 

[teej6]

4 hours ago, blckp said:

he deserved death for his stupidity , asking night watch borthers to break their oath and fight for him with boltons

of course his plot armor will resurrect him , it already happened in tv show

If you've read the books you'll know that he specifically asked his brothers at the NW that it was not their responsibilty or job to fight Ramsay and in turn break their vows. He gives them the choice to fight with him if they willingly choose to do so. Here's his speech from ADWD: 

“The Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms,” Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. “It is not for  us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows. “The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …” Jon paused. “… is there any man here who will come stand with me?”

 

 

[teej6]

22 hours ago, khal drogon said:

That is typical Jon fans. They want the story to be about him. But the reality is different so they wish his 'classic hero' arc at least means the story is about him. 

And you a Dany fan don't want her to be the hero? I think you have double standards here, which is not surprising since you root for a character who's shown to be very hypocritical at times. 

[the snow dragon]

I dont understand why some people keep treating longclaw as a magical super unique sword.it is just one of the hundreds valarian swords present.Valarian steel arakhs are rare.jon geting a valarian sword is not that speacial.Breine got one gifted to her.

[khal drogon]

17 hours ago, Ruhail said:

 

You're not exactly any different from Jon fans.

LOL where I said my fav. will become "THE hero" of the story. I like Dany and I believe she will be one of the key players in the end game. I believe the key to defeat the Others is like pieces of the puzzle. They have to come together in the end of the story.

Why do you think I'm no different to them? I don't argue how my fav. will become everything and how he deserves to be THE HERO of the series. I hate a boring character to be the Central protagonist of my favorite story.

[khal drogon]

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

And you a Dany fan don't want her to be the hero? I think you have double standards here, which is not surprising since you root for a character who's shown to be very hypocritical at times. 

I root for her character which I find more interesting. No I don't want her to be THE HERO of the story. She has a part to play and I want an interesting arc from her. I don't want her to steal the thunder of other characters. 

[The Wolves]

59 minutes ago, the snow dragon said:

I dont understand why some people keep treating longclaw as a magical super unique sword.it is just one of the hundreds valarian swords present.Valarian steel arakhs are rare.jon geting a valarian sword is not that speacial.Breine got one gifted to her.

I keep saying this. 

Plu when have Longclaw actually been oh so useful and done anything a regular sword couldn't have done? 

[teej6]

7 hours ago, khal drogon said:

LOL where I said my fav. will become "THE hero" of the story. I like Dany and I believe she will be one of the key players in the end game. I believe the key to defeat the Others is like pieces of the puzzle. They have to come together in the end of the story.

Why do you think I'm no different to them? I don't argue how my fav. will become everything and how he deserves to be THE HERO of the series. I hate a boring character to be the Central protagonist of my favorite story.

And not all Jon fans think that he's THE hero of the story. He follows the hero's journey in ASOIAF but so did Aragorn in LOTR and Aragorn wasn't the only hero in LOTR. Similarly in ASOIAF, Jon is the closest thing we have to a traditional hero but most Jon fans DO NOT think he's the one and only protagonist in the story. And just like your defense of Dany (and I have read some of your posts and your defense of Dany in some instances borders on hero worship), Jon fans also have a right to defend him when we hear the usual he's boring, or a Gary Stu, or he's incompetent whining from Jon haters. And as to his character being boring, that's subjective and your opinion nothing more. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Minsc]

12 hours ago, teej6 said:

It's all about spectacle and being badass isn't it? It's strange how people think being good is boring.

My top five favorite characters include Catelyn, Ned, Edmure, and Sansa all of which are just a good as Jon if not better and none of them have traditional spectacle or badass moments.  Finding Jon boring doesn't mean I cannot appreciate goodness and instead just need someone to be badass.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

2 hours ago, Minsc said:

My top five favorite characters include Catelyn, Ned, Edmure, and Sansa all of which are just a good as Jon if not better and none of them have traditional spectacle or badass moments.  Finding Jon boring doesn't mean I cannot appreciate goodness and instead just need someone to be badass.

Your top favorite characters are my most boring characters.

 And I am still laughing at people keep calling Longcraw as a magical sword. VS are special but not magical. 

They have around more than two hundreds of VS in Westeros. Yes VS is rare but not like they ONLY have ONE left for Jon loll. So many houses still have VS. 

And his Warg ability is just the same as other Stark children and some wildings. I don't see how Jon is gifted that much when there are more than just dozen of people get the same (like VS, warg ability etc...) if he were the only one who can warg, the only one with VS, the it's plot gift. However it's not. Honestly, he isn't that unique compared to like a dozen of others. 

His heritage hasn't played out to be important to the realm. Most people in Westeros don't know who the hell he is. And even if he knew of his heritage there's no way to convince people to believe it. So far his heritage is only making him struggle with his identity. He doesn't know anything, not even his parents. And they're not a perfect couple at all, given how Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecy. Jon might be the result of just an experiment lol.

and for the most part, the haters who keep throwing hate at him and still messing up the show and the book together, roll eyes.

as for the most part, why many people think Jon will play some important role in the war against the Others is because... Well he actually is still staying at the wall and knows of the Others and their zombie? 

[Maxxine]

57 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Your top favorite characters are my most boring characters.

 And I am still laughing at people keep calling Longcraw as a magical sword. VS are special but not magical. 

They have around more than two hundreds of VS in Westeros. Yes VS is rare but not like they ONLY have ONE left for Jon loll. So many houses still have VS. 

And his Warg ability is just the same as other Stark children and some wildings. I don't see how Jon is gifted that much when there are more than just dozen of people get the same (like VS, warg ability etc...) if he were the only one who can warg, the only one with VS, the it's plot gift. However it's not. Honestly, he isn't that unique compared to like a dozen of others. 

His heritage hasn't played out to be important to the realm. Most people in Westeros don't know who the hell he is. And even if he knew of his heritage there's no way to convince people to believe it. So far his heritage is only making him struggle with his identity. He doesn't know anything, not even his parents. And they're not a perfect couple at all, given how Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecy. Jon might be the result of just an experiment lol.

and for the most part, the haters who keep throwing hate at him and still messing up the show and the book together, roll eyes.

as for the most part, why many people think Jon will play some important role in the war against the Others is because... Well he actually is still staying at the wall and knows of the Others and their zombie? 

In regards to the Longclaw discussion, I agree that it's not a magic sword and really has done nothing special for Jon so far that a regular sword couldn't have done. However, if it's true that dragonsteel = Valyrian steel then he will just happen to have the type of metal that can defeat Others which he wouldn't have had otherwise. The fact Mormont gave him a family heirloom is if nothing else convenient. Yeah Jon saved his life and maybe deserved a reward but giving him the sword that's been passed down through generations is a bit odd especially since it's not like the Mormont line had ended. He had nieces who fight and could've been given the sword or if he's against giving it to women those nieces still could have sons that the sword could be passed down to. Giving it to some random boy who you have known for what 10 months (?) is like I said odd. And as someone said upthread had it been one of the rapist or poacher black brother who saved Mormont they wouldn't have gotten the sword.

And for context, I think I'm fairly neutral toward Jon. I don't find him boring though I don't think his necessarily complex.  IMO he's essentially Ned Jr. His biggest goal is to do the "right" thing regardless of the consequences which is annoying but not boring. He does have his bastard complex that adds to his issues. I found him to be most enjoyable when he joined the wildlings and was truly conflicted about what was right.

[Castellan]

Jon is a hero because when Sansa sees Janos Slynt 

"Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heros..."

which Jon fulfils.

Jon has basically stuck to his duties up to the point where the pink letter tempts him. He has been adroit in handling Stannis and the wildlings and marrying Alys etc. 

I think the whole world of the book shows the importance of his kind of character. Of course, he is not the only hero.

 

[Chib]

15 hours ago, Maxxine said:

In regards to the Longclaw discussion, I agree that it's not a magic sword and really has done nothing special for Jon so far that a regular sword couldn't have done. However, if it's true that dragonsteel = Valyrian steel then he will just happen to have the type of metal that can defeat Others which he wouldn't have had otherwise. The fact Mormont gave him a family heirloom is if nothing else convenient. Yeah Jon saved his life and maybe deserved a reward but giving him the sword that's been passed down through generations is a bit odd especially since it's not like the Mormont line had ended. He had nieces who fight and could've been given the sword or if he's against giving it to women those nieces still could have sons that the sword could be passed down to. Giving it to some random boy who you have known for what 10 months (?) is like I said odd. And as someone said upthread had it been one of the rapist or poacher black brother who saved Mormont they wouldn't have gotten the sword.

5

I think Mormont knew that VS can kill the others so it's useful to be in Jon's hands than his. He also did not have much attachment to the sword after what his son had done. Yes it is valuable but let's say if my family had one sword like that I wouldn't know what to do with it. Maybe I will sell it for money but again if I am in NW I can't right? and around me there are all criminals and rapists, so you see a somewhat good boy with good upbringing, and the sword might be more useful in his hand than mine, and I like the boy, so ok just give it to him. 

Mormont family should be happy they don't have me as their child, Lol.

[Rosetta Stone]

Jon Snow is a traitor who betrayed the order he has sworn to serve.  He betrayed the Night's Watch just to help fArya get out of her marriage with Ramsay Bolton.  Jon sent Mance Rayder to Winterfell to get Arya out.  That is treason as far as the rules of the Night Watch.  Jon is not a hero.

[Castellan]

That's an extremely narrow minded and conservative concept of hero. 

[Jimmy is not No One]

It's been quite entertaining to read the back and forth between Jon fans and dany fans.  Neither group realizes that their love of one character blinds them from understanding the other character in even the most basic and fundemental of ways.  I suggest both groups try to reread the series with the specific goal of not letting their bias completely distort the text.  Could be eye opening to say the least.  

 

anyways, I just wanted to give my opinion regarding a certain underlying assumption/theme that most people in this thread agree with.  I would argue that grrm wanted to show that every character is the hero of their own story and that each side in a conflict has legit views and reasons to be take the actions they take.  This works when the focus is multiple houses vying for power and the iron throne.  So, so far, most posters are correct that the story of who gets the iron throne doesn't have one hero.  But grrm created an external threat to all humans (the others and ww).  The others aren't human and have an insatiable desire to kill humans.  Therefore they fit squarely in the position of "evil bad guys." Certainly whoever defeats this threat (whether through personal acts or being the leader of the army that defeats the threat), will be deemed the hero of the story.  I'd imagine that both dany and Jon will play extremely important roles in defeating this external threat.  Ergo, both will end up being viewed as the main heroes of the story.