OuttaOldtown Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 54 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said: I actually think that Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna (except in the statutory sense), and the quote you provided is exactly what I'm talking about when I say people should look to Lyanna, not Ned. Ned remember that Lyanna had cold feet. Jojen relays that Howland saw evidence that Lyanna was infatuated with Rhaegar. Everyone who knew her thought she was spirited, and her most notable skill is horse-riding. All of this points to a willing flight. It's great evidence, and actually relevant to the question of whether or not Lyanna consented to have sex with Rhaegar. When determining whether or not Rhaegar raped Lyanna, it's Lyanna's feelings that matter, not Eddard's. I agree, unfortunately there isn't a plethora quotes in which Ned recalls an actual conversation between the two like this one, the next best thing is Ned's inner monologue. The fact that at no time goes he shows ill will towards Rhaegar is the biggest clue to pump the brakes on Robert's view of what happened. And until Howland shows up or Bran sees something via the weirwood network it's the best source we have, just my opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 1 hour ago, purple-eyes said: of course rhaegar is not a villain. He did not force lyanna to do anything. it is Lyanna who happily ran away with him. How you know that? How you know or example that even if Lyanna went willingly later she wanted to leave and he forced her to stay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 10 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: How you know that? How you know or example that even if Lyanna went willingly later she wanted to leave and he forced her to stay? this is just the most popular theory. and i think this is very likely to be true. i do not think rhaegar forced her to stay. lyanna was pregnant so she probably does not want to travel from south to north. by the way, she still loved rhaegar until she died. she is supposed to be very fiery and headstrong. if rhaegar forced her anything, she may not love him that much, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said: this is just the most popular theory. and i think this is very likely to be true. I am not talking about eloping, I am talking about staying. 3 minutes ago, purple-eyes said: i do not think rhaegar forced her to stay. lyanna was pregnant so she probably does not want to travel from south to north Being pregnant doesn't mean that someone cannot travel. 3 minutes ago, purple-eyes said: she still loved rhaegar until she died. We only know that she was holding some old roses and nothing more. It could be also the fact that she was missing her home and that she had Stockholm's syndrome. 4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said: if rhaegar forced her anything, she may not love him that much, right? No. Many people are abused in their relationship and they still "love" their abuser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: I am not talking about eloping, I am talking about staying. Being pregnant doesn't mean that someone cannot travel. We only know that she was holding some old roses and nothing more. It could be also the fact that she was missing her home and that she had Stockholm's syndrome. No. Many people are abused in their relationship and they still "love" their abuser. Lyanna is sort of like GRRM's dreamlover, his Mary Sue. (you know there was a novel called Song of Lya, right?) Everything about her must be beautiful and great (her death, her statue, the ship named after her, her winter rose, what the hell, even the girl named after her must be great too). Every powerful man must love her and be ready to die or sacrifice for her (Rhaegar, Robert, Ned, Brandon, etc.). Thousands of good men died in order to save her just because she felt she wanted to secretly elope. She is the symbol of love and beauty in Westeros. She is a legendary beauty, a great and noble knight, a wise and smart lady, a warm-hearted and nice she-wolf, the holy mother of savior, beloved woman of the most popular men in her time, every woman is just diminished by her, etc. etc. Briefly, I do not think GRRM will allow something nasty like Stockholm or abusing related to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 If Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna... Lyanna marries Robert. Brandon marries Catelyn. Jon Arryn marries Lysa. The Vale, the North, the River lands and the Storm lands are united... The Targaryens would no longer rule the seven kingdoms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, stateofdissipation said: Jon Arryn marries Lysa. Jon had no reason to marry Lysa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Jon had no reason to marry Lysa. Jon had no reason to marry Lysa... with or without Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna... Unless he did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 1 minute ago, stateofdissipation said: Jon had no reason to marry Lysa... with or without Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna... Unless he did... Not true. As Cat said; Quote Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully So Hoster basically forced Jon Arryn to marry Lysa in order to gain his support. Without the war Jon Arryn had no reason to marry Lysa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 On 6/29/2016 at 1:23 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said: If Rhaegar hadn't eloped with Lyanna, Brandon wouldn't had a reason to go to KL and Aerys wouldn't had killed him and his father. There would had been no death sentence for Robert and Ned and Jon Arryn wouldn't had declared the Rebellion. Rhaegar would had overthrown his father with a bloodless coup d'etat and now Westeros would had been ruled from either Rhaegar I the Kinslayer οr Aegon VI. Maybe. But if Varys and Ilyrio were plotting to bring down the current Targaryen branch and substitute Blackfyres or whatever it is that they have there still could have been a war with similar consequences. There were still Rickard's Southron Ambitions that Aerys could have used as an excuse to try and overthrow the Starks and other Houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said: Maybe. But if Varys and Ilyrio were plotting to bring down the current Targaryen branch and substitute Blackfyres or whatever it is that they have there still could have been a war with similar consequences. There were still Rickard's Southron Ambitions that Aerys could have used as an excuse to try and overthrow the Starks and other Houses. True. However I am not talking about the results of their elopment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Not true. As Cat said; So Hoster basically forced Jon Arryn to marry Lysa in order to gain his support. Without the war Jon Arryn had no reason to marry Lysa. Catelyn and Ned marrying bound Hoster to the rebellion. Catelyn was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, stateofdissipation said: Catelyn and Ned marrying bound Hoster to the rebellion. Catelyn was wrong. Cool. Now, where it was told? Do you have any quote? Because the only quotes I have find agree with me; Quote Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully." Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth. Quote Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said: Cool. Now, where it was told? Do you have any quote? What? That Catelyn married Ned? That Catelyn's marriage to Ned bound Hoster to the rebellion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Just now, stateofdissipation said: What? That Catelyn married Ned? That Catelyn's marriage to Ned bound Hoster to the rebellion? That Jon wanted to marry Lysa and wasn't forced by Hoster in order to support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: That Jon wanted to marry Lysa and wasn't forced by Hoster in order to support them. There was a double marriage Lysa and Catelyn According to Catelyn Lysa-Jon marriage ties Hoster to rebellion... Catelyn-Ned marriage--- nothing According to Lysa Lysa-Jon marriage ties Hoster to the rebellion Catelyn-Ned marriage--- nothing The assertion was that the marriage between Jon-Lysa would have happened if Rhaegar had not kidnapped Lyanna. Countering that assertion is Lysa and Cats belief that Jon married Lysa for support in the war. Countering that is the marriage between Ned and Catelyn-- which accomplished the same end as the Jon-Lysa marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Up_Bxtch Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I still believe there would of been a rebellion, but instead of Robert vs Aerys it would of been another Targaryen Civil War between Rhaegar and Aerys. Rhaegar was planning to call a great council and It is speculated that Aerys was contemplating disinheriting Rhaegar and naming Viserys as his true heir anyways. That would of been the spark.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 1 minute ago, stateofdissipation said: There was a double marriage Lysa and Catelyn According to Catelyn Lysa-Jon marriage ties Hoster to rebellion... Catelyn-Ned marriage--- nothing According to Lysa Lysa-Jon marriage ties Hoster to the rebellion Catelyn-Ned marriage--- nothing The assertion was that the marriage between Jon-Lysa would have happened if Rhaegar had not kidnapped Lyanna. Countering that assertion is Lysa and Cats belief that Jon married Lysa for support in the war. Countering that is the marriage between Ned and Catelyn-- which accomplished the same end as the Jon-Lysa marriage. So your answer is that you haven't got a text quote. No one said that Cat's and Ned's marriage was nothing, but Lysa's and Jon's marriage was also a term in order Hoster support them. Much like how Dorne became a part of the Realm. Mariah was already married with Daeron so by your logic there was no reason for Maron's marriage with Daenerys. You may want to believe whatever you want, but the books is what matters and the books state that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 17 minutes ago, stateofdissipation said: There was a double marriage Lysa and Catelyn According to Catelyn Lysa-Jon marriage ties Hoster to rebellion... Catelyn-Ned marriage--- nothing According to Lysa Lysa-Jon marriage ties Hoster to the rebellion Catelyn-Ned marriage--- nothing The assertion was that the marriage between Jon-Lysa would have happened if Rhaegar had not kidnapped Lyanna. Countering that assertion is Lysa and Cats belief that Jon married Lysa for support in the war. Countering that is the marriage between Ned and Catelyn-- which accomplished the same end as the Jon-Lysa marriage. Nope. The marriage alliance between the Starks and Tullys (Brandon and Catelyn which became Ned and Catelyn) is just your normal run of the mill marriage between two noble families planned in peacetime. The marriage alliance between the Tullys and Arryns (Lysa and Jon) is specifically beacuase Jon Arryn needs Hoster's military support in the Robellion. Without Rhaegar kidnapping / eloping with Lyanna ,Jon Arryn would have had no need to lower himself to marry Lysa. GRRM has this confirmed to us us by both Lysa and Catelyn. You can assume they are both wrong if you want to I suppose but it's there all the same as the reason for Lysa's unhappy marriage and estrangement from her family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: So your answer is that you haven't got a text quote. No one said that Cat's and Ned's marriage was nothing, but Lysa's and Jon's marriage was also a term in order Hoster support them. Much like how Dorne became a part of the Realm. Mariah was already married with Daeron so by your logic there was no reason for Maron's marriage with Daenerys. You may want to believe whatever you want, but the books is what matters and the books state that Ned married Cat... do we need a text quote for that? You have Catelyn's musings and Lysa's words... you do not have a basis in fact for their beliefs... It is a fact that is what they thought and said but not necessarily what happened. Hoster and Jon believed that a marriage between Ned and Catelyn would not subject house Tully to the wrath of Aerys should the rebellion fail. ---a textual basis for that? You need both for Hoster to be able to impose conditions on his support of the rebellion and to have those conditions met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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