What if Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna?

[Alaynsa Starne]

1 minute ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

So, in a Rhaegar-Aerys war... who would fight for Aerys? Let's say he wants to attack casterly rock to Reynes Tywin - who marches with him? The SNRV alliance has no cause to do so, Dorne is just biding their time for Rhaegar to take over, and the Tyrells have no dog in the race. During the year of the false spring there aren't even any active feuds to use to play the lords against eachother - Oberyn hasn't even maimed Willas yet.

I'm also not convinced by the evidence that Rhaegar was actually conspiring against his dad. Mostly, we just have Aerys paranoia, Varys plotting, and several lords hopes to go off of. But at the tourney of harrenhal he publicly crowns Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, in a move that everyone instantly recognizes as being very very bad. If the whole thing was actually a cover to convince the lords paramount to support his claim, why would he have used it to piss them all off? Clearly by the time of the war he recognized the need for drastic change, but that doesn't mean he was conspiring to overthrow his father.

I dunno why there would be a Rhaegar-Aerys war or why you think I was suggesting that there would be. I have no idea what the SNRV alliance is. And Aerys is just as capable of making marriage alliances as anyone else. He has a son and two grandchildren to pawn off. Hypothetically, if he wanted to march against Casterly Rock, he could easily promise to marry Viserys to Marge, and the Tyrells would be his. They were his anyway without a marriage alliance during RR. Plus he has everyone in the Crownlands to draw from and anyone in the realm who wanted to stay in his good graces.

And Oswell Whent and Rhaegar were close friends. Barristan implies that it was Oswell who put forward the idea of the tourney to his family. The Tourney at Harrenhal had a mystery sponsor, likely Rhaegar. There were rumors that Rhaegar was planning to overthrow Aerys at a time when highly unusual marriage alliances are being made between high lords. Aerys mistrusts Rhaegar before he even knows Varys exists. Rhaegar suggests to Jaime that he meant to make changes regarding how things were done in King's Landing earlier, but something prevented him from doing so. The elements are all there, even if it's not necessarily definitive proof. Just because Rhaegar cocked it up himself doesn't, in my opinion, preclude the possibility that Rhaegar did indeed have active plans for some sort of bloodless revolution. It just proves that he was either entirely socially inept, or human and prone to error. Though, yes, you are correct in that we do not at this point have absolute evidence that Rhaegar was attempting to overthrow Aerys. 

[DominusNovus]

39 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

So, in a Rhaegar-Aerys war... who would fight for Aerys? Let's say he wants to attack casterly rock to Reynes Tywin - who marches with him? The SNRV alliance has no cause to do so, Dorne is just biding their time for Rhaegar to take over, and the Tyrells have no dog in the race. During the year of the false spring there aren't even any active feuds to use to play the lords against eachother - Oberyn hasn't even maimed Willas yet.

I'm also not convinced by the evidence that Rhaegar was actually conspiring against his dad. Mostly, we just have Aerys paranoia, Varys plotting, and several lords hopes to go off of. But at the tourney of harrenhal he publicly crowns Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, in a move that everyone instantly recognizes as being very very bad. If the whole thing was actually a cover to convince the lords paramount to support his claim, why would he have used it to piss them all off? Clearly by the time of the war he recognized the need for drastic change, but that doesn't mean he was conspiring to overthrow his father.

We're explicitly supposed to view a very large number of Westerosi men as being rapists, especially the soldiers. I have paper copies of the book that are hard to search, but I recall there being a number of passages about how most men who go to war become rapists along the way, and then return home to lead normal lives (usually used to contrast people like the mountain, or "dogs"). The ironborn have a number of conversations about how they should rape more often. Jon snow has some confusion with the Wildlings, trying to discern between those who are actual rapists and those who "steal" their wives and have the women on board with it. This isn't an issue of people reading too much into the story or trying to apply outside standards - the books explicitly reach this condemning conclusion.

But yeah, clearly statutory isn't the kind of rape Robert's accusing Rhaegar of. If someone wants to condemn Rhaegar for that, they'd also have to lay that charge at Edmure's feet for bedding Roslin.

 

I actually was referring to the fact that a large amount of the sex in Westeros would be what we would qualify as marital rape. 

[DominusNovus]

21 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

I dunno why there would be a Rhaegar-Aerys war or why you think I was suggesting that there would be. I have no idea what the SNRV alliance is. And Aerys is just as capable of making marriage alliances as anyone else. He has a son and two grandchildren to pawn off. Hypothetically, if he wanted to march against Casterly Rock, he could easily promise to marry Viserys to Marge, and the Tyrells would be his. They were his anyway without a marriage alliance during RR. Plus he has everyone in the Crownlands to draw from and anyone in the realm who wanted to stay in his good graces.

And Oswell Whent and Rhaegar were close friends. Barristan implies that it was Oswell who put forward the idea of the tourney to his family. The Tourney at Harrenhal had a mystery sponsor, likely Rhaegar. There were rumors that Rhaegar was planning to overthrow Aerys at a time when highly unusual marriage alliances are being made between high lords. Aerys mistrusts Rhaegar before he even knows Varys exists. Rhaegar suggests to Jaime that he meant to make changes regarding how things were done in King's Landing earlier, but something prevented him from doing so. The elements are all there, even if it's not necessarily definitive proof. Just because Rhaegar cocked it up himself doesn't, in my opinion, preclude the possibility that Rhaegar did indeed have active plans for some sort of bloodless revolution. It just proves that he was either entirely socially inept, or human and prone to error. Though, yes, you are correct in that we do not at this point have absolute evidence that Rhaegar was attempting to overthrow Aerys. 

Stormlands

North

Riverlands

Vale

[Alaynsa Starne]

2 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

Stormlands

North

Riverlands

Vale

Christ, thanks. I felt really dumb looking at that because I was like "This is probably really obvious..." And it was. 

[purple-eyes]

harrenhal tourney likely happened in early 281.

lyanna died in late 283. and she was 16 by then. 

i just want to say when rhaegar publicly showered lyanna with roses at harrenhal, lyanna is likely 13. 

when rhaegar banged lyanna (let us assume they only had sex after eloping, not before), lyanna is likely about 14. 

even by standard of weateros, it is creepy. 

 

[Dorian Martell]

8 hours ago, Nami said:

It really doesn't
Some peple are really on it trying to prove that Rhaegar was a rapist monster, I have no idea why

It's like a bunch Robert Baratheons lmao

They need it. Maybe it is a requirement 

7 hours ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

 

what rhaegar did is rape.

either he forced the girl or not, having sex with a minor while being a grownup is rape in any western country.

 

he is a 24 years old creepy guy, banging a 15 years old girl, for crying out loud. 

What then,  according to GRRM is the age of consent in Westeron and what page of what book did he write that particular line? 
In the middle ages and even now, a ten year difference quite normal. So if it was consensual, it was not rape. you can't rape the willing. 

7 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

So, I don't think Rhaegar was a rapist either, but I don't understand where people get the idea that Ned would have (1) known the truth of the matter or (2) been constantly seething with rage if that were the case. Ned only had one conversation with Lyanna post-Rhaegar, and it was about the future, not the past. Ned also put down a rebellion whose expressed purpose was to bring back a lifestyle of raping and pillaging, but he doesn't seethe about still-living Balon, nor does he suddenly start hating Robert when he hears Cersei accuse him of rape, nor does he take issue with convicted rapists staying in his castle as honored guests from the night's watch.

Again though, to be clear, I agree that he wasn't a rapist, because it's all the evidence agrees that Lyanna was infatuated with him and disliked Robert.

Good point

[MinotaurWarrior]

5 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

I dunno why there would be a Rhaegar-Aerys war or why you think I was suggesting that there would be. I have no idea what the SNRV alliance is.

Sorry for misunderstanding you with regards to a Rhaegar Aerys war. I wrongly conflated your mentioning of the Rhaegar-Aerys political troubles with your mentioning of another war breaking out.

Quote

And Aerys is just as capable of making marriage alliances as anyone else. He has a son and two grandchildren to pawn off.  Hypothetically, if he wanted to march against Casterly Rock, he could easily promise to marry Viserys to Marge, and the Tyrells would be his. They were his anyway without a marriage alliance during RR. Plus he has everyone in the Crownlands to draw from and anyone in the realm who wanted to stay in his good graces.

You know, I never considered using Viserys for a marriage alliance. Now I'm wondering if maybe that wasn't actually in play in the real Robert's rebellion. There's a slight problem in that Marge is the same age as Dany, but the Tyrells could have made a Frey-style deal, betrothing Viserys to a Tyrell.

However, Aerys isn't as capable of making marriage alliances as anyone, because he's nuts.

Quote

And Oswell Whent and Rhaegar were close friends. Barristan implies that it was Oswell who put forward the idea of the tourney to his family. The Tourney at Harrenhal had a mystery sponsor, likely Rhaegar. There were rumors that Rhaegar was planning to overthrow Aerys at a time when highly unusual marriage alliances are being made between high lords. Aerys mistrusts Rhaegar before he even knows Varys exists. Rhaegar suggests to Jaime that he meant to make changes regarding how things were done in King's Landing earlier, but something prevented him from doing so. The elements are all there, even if it's not necessarily definitive proof. Just because Rhaegar cocked it up himself doesn't, in my opinion, preclude the possibility that Rhaegar did indeed have active plans for some sort of bloodless revolution. It just proves that he was either entirely socially inept, or human and prone to error. Though, yes, you are correct in that we do not at this point have absolute evidence that Rhaegar was attempting to overthrow Aerys. 

You lose me at the bolded section. The Whents were married to Hoster Tully and were going to have grandchildren in Winterfell, the Eyrie, and the Riverlands. They didn't need a mystery sponsor. They probably could have afforded it just based on Robert's contributions alone, because the number one thing we know about the then-lord-of-the-stormlands' finances is that he loves spending gold on lavish tourneys.

It was Varys who suggested that the tourney at Harrenhal was a plot by Rhaegar for Rhaegar, and it was Varys who suggested opening the gates for Tywin.

5 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

I actually was referring to the fact that a large amount of the sex in Westeros would be what we would qualify as marital rape. 

Is it? I know this is a small sample size, but Eddard and Cat both seem enthusiastic about consenting to dutiful sex. We know Cersei didn't want to marry or have sex with Robert, but she calls him a rapist for it and Ned doesn't deny it. Sansa is resigned to having sex with Tyrion, but he declines because he thinks it'd be wrong. Olenna says she loved her husband and specifically enjoyed him in bed. Tywin loved Joanna. Jeyne is very enthusiastic about having sex with her king three times a day. Fat Walda is, at least in aSoS, a vocal fan of getting put on the scales by Roose. Dornish women hold nearly equal status with Dornish men, and likely aren't submitting to non-consensual marriages.

Stannis and Selyse aren't enthusiastic about each other, but it's Selyse begging for babies, and Stannis with the power. The Ironborn have distinct rape-wives, but they're ironborn. Jorah's wife turns out to hate being married to him, but he never fathers any children on her, and he doesn't so much as make her adjust to normal northern food, so I'm not sure he was making her bed him.

I don't think arranged marriages = widespread marital rape. It definitely happens, but it's absent from enough relationships that I don't think it's meant to be a normal part of Westerosi culture.

[redtree]

15 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

It was Varys who suggested that the tourney at Harrenhal was a plot by Rhaegar for Rhaegar, and it was Varys who suggested opening the gates for Tywin.

No you got it wrong, that was Pycelle not Varys. Pycelle was hoping that Tywin would be king
Varys did the opposite, he was the one who advised Aerys to keep the gates closed
 

[redtree]

16 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

You lose me at the bolded section. The Whents were married to Hoster Tully and were going to have grandchildren in Winterfell, the Eyrie, and the Riverlands. They didn't need a mystery sponsor. They probably could have afforded it just based on Robert's contributions alone, because the number one thing we know about the then-lord-of-the-stormlands' finances is that he loves spending gold on lavish tourneys.

It's a possibility that they had no mystery sponsor but one will wonder how was it possible that a bannerman could afford a tourney with prize three times greater than the great one that Tywin, the richest man in continent, held in 272, plus the event was also just so so, his daughter's name day. It was also Yandel who suggested the possibility of sponsor not Varys

And do competitor needs to contribute anything ? What did Robert has anything to do with harrenhal tourney finance ?
I took that word in book as Robert loves to celebrate stuffs with tourney after he became king as a host who surely must spends a lot of money, not as a contestant 

 

[Señor de la Tormenta]

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

harrenhal tourney likely happened in early 281.

lyanna died in late 283. and she was 16 by then. 

i just want to say when rhaegar publicly showered lyanna with roses at harrenhal, lyanna is likely 13. 

when rhaegar banged lyanna (let us assume they only had sex after eloping, not before), lyanna is likely about 14. 

even by standard of weateros, it is creepy. 

 

Indeed.

 

A married man in his twentys disappears with an early teenager puts her in a tower, heavily guarded, and cuts any comunication with his family.

 

The girl ends up dead.

And Robert is a wacko because he calls this rape.

[Nami]

15 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

Indeed.

 

A married man in his twentys disappears with an early teenager puts her in a tower, heavily guarded, and cuts any comunication with his family.

 

The girl ends up dead.

And Robert is a wacko because he calls this rape.

Robert was in denial because he couldn't handle knowing that Lyanna wanted someone else other than him.
Clearly things are not what it seems. Why do you buy what he says when he didn't even talk to Lyanna on her deathbed and has a dog in this fight? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 hours ago, Nami said:

It really doesn't
Some peple are really on it trying to prove that Rhaegar was a rapist monster, I have no idea why

It's like a bunch Robert Baratheons lmao

Even if he didn't raped her, btw 16 is the age of majority in Westeros, he eloped with her abandoning his wife who almost died and two young children to have sexy time with her. You don't have to be a genious to see how this is a big problem.

[Nami]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Even if he didn't raped her, btw 16 is the age of majority in Westeros, he eloped with her abandonig his wife who almost died and two young children to have sexy time with her. You don't have to be a genious to see how this is a big problem.

It was a big problem, hence why everyone died. What's your point?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Nami said:

It was a big problem, hence why everyone died. What's your point?

The point is that someone doesn't need to be a "bunch Robert Baratheons" to see that Rhaegar was  a despicable human being.

[Nami]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The point is that someone doesn't need to be a "bunch Robert Baratheons" to see that Rhaegar was both a despicable human being.

wanting Rhaegar to be a rapist monster seem like something disciples of Robert Baratheon would do, and it's weird
Rhaegar failed many people, not as many as Robert who was a complete failure in all areas of his life though.
It's not supposed to be happy and I don't see anyone claiming this so yeah, my question still stands, what's the point in trying to prove Rhaegar was a rapist when all evidence points to the contrary?
Rapist monster =/= a flawed person who hurt many

Actually, forget about me asking what's the point. You are a Robert Baratheon fangirl (why tho?) so you defend him in every thread. 

[MinotaurWarrior]

38 minutes ago, redtree said:

It's a possibility that they had no mystery sponsor but one will wonder how was it possible that a bannerman could afford a tourney with prize three times greater than the great one that Tywin, the richest man in continent, held in 272, plus the event was also just so so, his daughter's name day. It was also Yandel who suggested the possibility of sponsor not Varys

And do competitor needs to contribute anything ? What did Robert has anything to do with harrenhal tourney finance ?
I took that word in book as Robert loves to celebrate stuffs with tourney after he became king as a host who surely must spends a lot of money, not as a contestant 

 

Varys is the one who suggested Rhaegar was the sponsor, per ADwD The Kingmaker.

What I'm suggesting is that the SNRV alliance was behind Harrenhal, arranging it through a bannerman to draw suspicion away. It could have been funded by the three lords paramount whose kingdoms were going to be ruled by Whent descendents, or even just by Robert (grossly overspending the fiscally responsible Tywin).

In order for it to have been a cover for a grand council to overthrow Aerys, the SNRV alliance would have had to have been involved anyway (being 4/7 lords paramount). I think applying occam's razor and cutting out Rhaegar entirely makes the whole thing simpler and more sensible.

53 minutes ago, redtree said:

No you got it wrong, that was Pycelle not Varys. Pycelle was hoping that Tywin would be king
Varys did the opposite, he was the one who advised Aerys to keep the gates closed
 

Yup, you're right, my mistake.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

45 minutes ago, Nami said:

wanting Rhaegar to be a rapist monster seem like something disciples of Robert Baratheon would do, and it's weird

Is it? I am calling it questioning someone's action and not being a fanboy.

45 minutes ago, Nami said:

Rhaegar failed many people, not as many as Robert who was a complete failure in all areas of his life though.

I don't see who are the people Rhaegar hadn't failed and Robert failed.

45 minutes ago, Nami said:

It's not supposed to be happy and I don't see anyone claiming this so yeah, my question still stands, what's the point in trying to prove Rhaegar was a rapist when all evidence points to the contrary?

The evidence point to nothing. Even if Lyanna went willingly and she was 16 which is the age of majority in Westeros and Ned only said that Rhaegar didn't went to brothels. Unless Lyanna and Ned had a long talk about her life in the year that has passed there is absolutely no reason to not believe that Rhaegar raped her.

45 minutes ago, Nami said:

Rapist monster =/= a flawed person who hurt many

Not many, everyone. There isn't even one person that Rhaegar hadn't harmed. He brought war in Westeros because he wanted to have sex.

[redtree]

13 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Varys is the one who suggested Rhaegar was the sponsor, per ADwD The Kingmaker.

You're right, so there are 2 people who thought the same then, Varys and Yandel
 

13 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

What I'm suggesting is that the SNRV alliance was behind Harrenhal, arranging it through a bannerman to draw suspicion away. It could have been funded by the three lords paramount whose kingdoms were going to be ruled by Whent descendents, or even just by Robert (grossly overspending the fiscally responsible Tywin).

In order for it to have been a cover for a grand council to overthrow Aerys, the SNRV alliance would have had to have been involved anyway (being 4/7 lords paramount). I think applying occam's razor and cutting out Rhaegar entirely makes the whole thing simpler and more sensible.

It could be, yet the lord whent only arranged right after a visit from the whent KG so more tend to believe that it was Rhaegar not the alliance. If they wanted to meet i suppose brandon's wedding or robert's wedding would be a better event rather than spending great amount of money on a tourney

[purple-eyes]

people, lyanna died at 16. before she died, she already disappeared for almost two years------which means, rhaegar flirted with a 13 year old and had sex with a 14 year old and made her pregant at 15. 

look at how tyrion dealt with Sansa who was at similar age. 

GRRM already said in the book that early preganancy can put young mother in danger, which is true. 

Not to mention House Stark did not receive any news or words from Lyanna in this long time, and i do not think it is Lyanna who did not want to contact her family, especially after she heard about the deaths of her father and brother. 

This Rhaegar is irresponsible towards his wife, his young children as well as his lover lyanna. 

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Is it? I am calling it questioning someone's action and not being a fanboy.

I don't see who are the people Rhaegar hadn't failed and Robert failed.

The evidence point to nothing. Even if Lyanna went willingly and she was 16 which is the age of majority in Westeros and Ned only said that Rhaegar didn't went to brothels. Unless Lyanna and Ned had a long talk about her life in the year that has passed there is absolutely no reason to not believe that Rhaegar raped her.

Not many, everyone. There isn't even one person that Rhaegar hadn't harmed. He brought war in Westeros because he wanted to have sex.

Have you ever read any other novels? I honestly wonder this about many of the people who share this view, it's not that I have an opposing viewpoint and support what Rhaegar did, it's your mind-boggling inability to see that there IS evidence to question the motivation behind their union. You choose to ignore Ned's inner monologue, her brother doesn't hold any ill will towards him, but you do? It's so ridiculous. That fat drunk idiot who killed him and despised him is far and away the worst source to base your evidence upon, yet that's what you do, he's the spurned suitor, of course he paints Rhaegar out to be a rapist because he's too proud to believe she chose this as well..