TwiceBorn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Without Aegon Varys makes no sense. I hated Aegon until fans developed fAegon theory and I will miss him in the show now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said: In the South we need something like a massive plague to balance out the scales. Why? What makes you think that any balance is needed? The end game is humans against Others and the Long Night, not the South against the North, don't forget that. And that should be challenge aplenty, for everybody. Which is why in the books we are now getting new antagonists that have clear magical aspects to them and may be (not so) unwitting agents of the Others. 1 hour ago, TwiceBorn said: Without Aegon Varys makes no sense. I hated Aegon until fans developed fAegon theory and I will miss him in the show now. Ditto. Varys/Illyrio and all their works in Westeros are an enormous plothole without FAegon. Just look at the show... If Varys was interested in the good of the realm, why wouldn't he have helped Rhaegar against Aerys, why would he have kept the twincest secret until some opportune moment, why wouldn't he have made sure that Viserys and Dany were properly educated if they were his true bet for the Iron Throne, etc., etc. Andwhy is Illyrio participating in and financing Varys's schemes? Literally none of it makes any kind of sense in the show and would make even less in the books, withou V&I having their very own claimant to back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMario Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: So what? We don't know what will happen yet or who she's even going to be fighting. Seriously? There are literally only three people that matter left in this show after episode 10 - Jon, Cersei and Dany. Dany has half the known world as her army. Cersei has the Lannister army only, and Jon, for some reason, has the Vale soldiers and about 250 northerners and wildings. Of course they will make it harder for Dany because plot, but she should be able to conquer Westeros in about a day. By removing Aegon as well as having Dorne and The Reach side with Dany so easily, they (maybe unintentionally) made her unstoppable, which takes out a lot of the believable mystery of what's to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Thing is, they would've had to introduce Aegon early to do it in a compelling, non shark-jumpy way. Fans of Aegon can scream "mummer's dragon" till they're blue in the face, it won't change the fact that his late introduction is at least extremely divisive, even in this very site. Which the show could've used to its advantage. They could've avoided GRRM's mistakes in that regard by introducing him and Jon Connington earlier somehow, get the audience to know them and care about them and making them look less like a last-minute complication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 You mean it is noticeably better that we don't have to deal with whiny perfect prince and his contrived plot. And I think that the show removed it because it lessens the impact of Jon's parentage to have another secret Targ. I do think that Dany however will need to have a setback and Cersei will need to have some victories. Introducing Euron is a wildcard. Lots of people suspect that Euron attacks Oldtown in the books; perhaps this is a plot in the show as well. The Reach's army will have to defend Oldtown rather than besieging KL. It also might be cool if Jon bailed out Dany's army and did something to make the inevitable alliance between the two seem more equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: I think you are getting a little confused and are unable to separate book and show, looking at the show on its own the plot in KL works completely fine. We are now at a point where Cercei has gone totally mad queen, Jamie is looking at her in terror, her children are dead, the Faith plot is basically over, the Tyrells have joined in the fight with Dorne and Dany. They have quite cleverly moved the pieces around and made it work, all without using the extraneous plot device of Aegon. Whether things happen in the book or not is pretty much irrelevant to the show now, as has been said, the basic plot points will be hit, but things are different. I agree. Now that we've seen the endgame in KL I think that it was quite clever how the show managed to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 13 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: Before I go into the topic I want to say while I hate many of the changes D&D have made cutting Aegon is one I totally get seeing as he was introduced so late in the game. Now having said that yeah his absence is really noticeable now, the plot has become way too narrow and predictable right now with half the kingdom with Dany and the other half with Jon and the evil queen right in the middle. Aegon was one of those wildcards that made the plot a bit more unpredictable and added a third element to everything that is now gone. Also the plot has become way too pro-Dany with Donre, the Reach, Tyrion, Varys, Dothraki, Second sons, and the Unsullied all on her side. Aegon with Varys, Golden Company, Dorne and possible the Stormlands with him gave Dany a struggle to overcome but now? She is gonna take KL with ease and probably after team up with Jon. Oh yeah, it is, big time. Also, Stannis and the real Wyman Manderly and all of those Stark Loyalist Houses who are chomping at the bits to destroy the Boltons and Freys but they have kin being held at the Twins from the Red Wedding as hostages. Arianne of Dorne and the real House Martell. The real stuff in the Vale. All thrown away so that they can prolong Cersei/Carol/Sheryl etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 30 minutes ago, illinifan said: You mean it is noticeably better that we don't have to deal with whiny perfect prince and his contrived plot. Exactly. The (f)Aegon arc is IMHO one of Martin's worst missteps. The story is much improved by his absence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMario Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 28 minutes ago, illinifan said: You mean it is noticeably better that we don't have to deal with whiny perfect prince and his contrived plot. And I think that the show removed it because it lessens the impact of Jon's parentage to have another secret Targ. I do think that Dany however will need to have a setback and Cersei will need to have some victories. Introducing Euron is a wildcard. Lots of people suspect that Euron attacks Oldtown in the books; perhaps this is a plot in the show as well. The Reach's army will have to defend Oldtown rather than besieging KL. It also might be cool if Jon bailed out Dany's army and did something to make the inevitable alliance between the two seem more equal. Except what would be the point in the show of Euron attacking Old Town? First, they dug themselves into a gaping hole by having him lose all his ships and request they build 1000 new ones on a group of islands that doesn't really have any wood. Second, what is his benefit of attacking The Reach when they have declared for Dany considering he is trying to win over Dany? That's like beating up a girl's friend because you want her to like you. I know they will give Dany setbacks because of plot, but Euron really does not come across as a credible threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, SuperMario said: Except what would be the point in the show of Euron attacking Old Town? First, they dug themselves into a gaping hole by having him lose all his ships and request they build 1000 new ones on a group of islands that doesn't really have any wood. Second, what is his benefit of attacking The Reach when they have declared for Dany considering he is trying to win over Dany? That's like beating up a girl's friend because you want her to like you. I know they will give Dany setbacks because of plot, but Euron really does not come across as a credible threat. Dany has declared for Yara and Theon. It makes sense for Euron to attempt to counter that. I've heard speculation that Cersei and Euron team up in Season 7. It would be smart for Cersei to attack Oldtown to distract Dany and her allies. Cersei is being set up as a cunning adversary; she killed all her enemies in KL and took over Westros. It was evil but quite brilliant. They need to give her some victories and Dany some setbacks or the whole thing is boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, SuperMario said: I know they will give Dany setbacks because of plot, but Euron really does not come across as a credible threat. They can't give her too many setbacks, since we've known since the Prologue of AGOT that the real war is against the Others/White Walkers. The war for the Iron Throne has always been a sideshow. Specifically, it's a tragedy and the only meaningful question it poses is, "Will the realm survive to confront the real enemy?" We've known since the very beginning that, in the end, it won't matter who wins the silly throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said: The point is that since Martin is an equal opportunity tormentor, a mass die-off is needed in the South to bring their level of tribulation to an equivalent level to that faced in the North. In the North we have Winter with snowfalls 40 feet deep, and the Others on their doorstep. In the South we need something like a massive plague to balance out the scales. George clearly isn't an equal opportunity tormentor. The West, Iron Islands, Reach, Stormlands, and Vale are still pretty fine. And whatever plague there is going to be is not going to kill millions of people. Winter is going to cut down travel to an absolute minimum. And what we know about the grey plague suggests it is a sickness that is transferred by touch. It is not an airborne virus like the Winter Fever might have been (which I imagine to be some sort of flu). It is going to cause problems, sure, but the bloody flux didn't wipe out all of Meereen or Slaver's Bay, suggesting that the grey plague won't wipe out all of the South in a few chapters of TWoW. And as Maia has already said I don't see any reason to balance out the scales. In fact, I think people are will be pretty fucked up in any case even with Dany's hundreds of thousands of men to support them. The Others are an overly powerful enemy and I'm pretty sure victory won't ensured by numbers alone. Quote Regarding the reason for Shireen's greyscale, it could be something as simple as this affliction giving the wildlings - who are the dominant force at the Wall - a reason not to intervene when she gets burned. Because they think she is an abomination anyway. Come on, now, you don't believe that idea yourself. We received specific information about greyscale from Val, suggesting that this is going to become important. If it turns out that she is right then Shireen is going to spread the disease before she dies. And thinking about that, perhaps there won't be a sacrifice in the books, after all. If the greyscale resurfaces then we might get a mercy killing of sorts, not to mention that there is clearly something magical to this sickness. Who knows whether greyscale patients make good sacrifices for blood magic? Transferring 'tainted life force' might not be a good idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwight Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 4 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: I have literally no idea how you could fit it in, or make it interesting to your average viewer. Well it should have been introduced in season 4 already (or at least heavily foreshadowed), if at all. All the involved characters were there: Oberyn, Varys and Gregor, and the whole "Gregor killed Elia and her children" thing was at the forefront. Tying Aegon actually being alive in with that would have fit like a glove as an ep10 reveal in Pentos, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMario Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 14 minutes ago, Direwight said: Well it should have been introduced in season 4 already (or at least heavily foreshadowed), if at all. All the involved characters were there: Oberyn, Varys and Gregor, and the whole "Gregor killed Elia and her children" thing was at the forefront. Tying Aegon actually being alive in with that would have fit like a glove as an ep10 reveal in Pentos, if you ask me. Exactly. Considering how many storylines they introduce and then abandon for really no reason, that was one they could have introduced that actually had the potential to bear fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 30 minutes ago, Greg B said: They can't give her too many setbacks, since we've known since the Prologue of AGOT that the real war is against the Others/White Walkers. The war for the Iron Throne has always been a sideshow. Specifically, it's a tragedy and the only meaningful question it poses is, "Will the realm survive to confront the real enemy?" We've known since the very beginning that, in the end, it won't matter who wins the silly throne. The war for the throne distracts everyone from the real war until the Wall comes tumbling down. Even Jon Snow, who knows the main war is with the WW, is now in the Game. Also, if the end game is Dany and Jon, I think him bailing her out and having an equal alliance makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, illinifan said: The war for the throne distracts everyone from the real war until the Wall comes tumbling down. Even Jon Snow, who knows the main war is with the WW, is now in the Game. Also, if the end game is Dany and Jon, I think him bailing her out and having an equal alliance makes sense. Yeah, I don't have any problem with that. Could happen. I'm just saying we have ~13 episodes left, so a whole new extended campaign for the Iron Throne, complete with lots of scheming, intrigues, and reversals, isn't in the cards. Daenerys can have some setbacks, certainly, but not too many at this point because we're hurtling toward the endgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 The KL plotline was two or three eps worth of story stretched over a whole season. It was painfully obvious D&D were covering a hole left by the removal of fAegon. Some sort of subplot was desperately needed. If not fAegon, then something else. Cersei (since she has been stripped of power) could have plotted with a Reach house opposed to the Tyrells. (Randyll Tarly?) She could have killed Kevan and Pycelle off earlier, while leaving a false trail implicating someone else. And some false evidence should have been planted connecting the pyromancers to some convenient patsy - perhaps the Tullys. It was a chance for them to get a bit creative, and they missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMario Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 minute ago, Ibbison from Ibben said: The KL plotline was two or three eps worth of story stretched over a whole season. It was painfully obvious D&D were covering a hole left by the removal of fAegon. Some sort of subplot was desperately needed. If not fAegon, then something else. Cersei (since she has been stripped of power) could have plotted with a Reach house opposed to the Tyrells. (Randyll Tarly?) She could have killed Kevan and Pycelle off earlier, while leaving a false trail implicating someone else. And some false evidence should have been planted connecting the pyromancers to some convenient patsy - perhaps the Tullys. It was a chance for them to get a bit creative, and they missed it. Wait, you mean FrankenGregor walking into random bars to bash the skulls of anyone who disparages Cersei was filler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 11 minutes ago, SuperMario said: Wait, you mean FrankenGregor walking into random bars to bash the skulls of anyone who disparages Cersei was filler? That guy was a huge letdown. I still don't understand why they are even having him. There was no trial-by-combat and no great fight involving the zombie terminator monster. Why didn't Cersei use him, you know, in episode 1-2 to put down Kevan-Pycelle-Olenna-Mace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 18 minutes ago, Greg B said: Yeah, I don't have any problem with that. Could happen. I'm just saying we have ~13 episodes left, so a whole new extended campaign for the Iron Throne, complete with lots of scheming, intrigues, and reversals, isn't in the cards. Daenerys can have some setbacks, certainly, but not too many at this point because we're hurtling toward the endgame. The WW are sort of boring so Chekov's Wall smashing down comes late in the series. They need to set up the endgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.