Ibbison from Ibben Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That guy was a huge letdown. I still don't understand why they are even having him. There was no trial-by-combat and no great fight involving the zombie terminator monster. Why didn't Cersei use him, you know, in episode 1-2 to put down Kevan-Pycelle-Olenna-Mace? Anticlimactic fake-outs seem to have been a major theme for the season. Loyalists vs mutineers at the Wall. Jon's resurrection. The Standoff at the Sept. Frankengregor. "I choose violence". The Shireen reveal to Davos-Mel's fate. I suppose they thought they were being clever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMario Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 minute ago, Ibbison from Ibben said: Anticlimactic fake-outs seem to have been a major theme for the season. Loyalists vs mutineers at the Wall. Jon's resurrection. The Standoff at the Sept. Frankengregor. "I choose violence". The Shireen reveal to Davos-Mel's fate. I suppose they thought they were being clever. Don't forget Marge's secret plan and drawing of the rose that amounted to nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lautrec Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said: Anticlimactic fake-outs seem to have been a major theme for the season. Loyalists vs mutineers at the Wall. Jon's resurrection. The Standoff at the Sept. Frankengregor. "I choose violence". The Shireen reveal to Davos-Mel's fate. I suppose they thought they were being clever. So when major stuff happens it's just for spectacle, but when it's subverted it's dumb? 1 minute ago, SuperMario said: Don't forget Marge's secret plan and drawing of the rose that amounted to nothing It amounted to Olenna leaving King's Landing. That was the plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 16 minutes ago, SuperMario said: Don't forget Marge's secret plan and drawing of the rose that amounted to nothing It confirmed she was plating the game with the Faith. It got Olenna out of Kings Landing. It paid off in a great moment when she dropped the act to try to save everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMario Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 19 minutes ago, Lautrec said: So when major stuff happens it's just for spectacle, but when it's subverted it's dumb? It amounted to Olenna leaving King's Landing. That was the plan. No, Olenna leaving was a side effect of the plan due to her unknowingly attempting to interfere with said plan. I highly doubt Marge's plan involved getting Olenna to meet up with four Dornish bastards and join two kingdoms together that have traditionally hated each other. The plan itself was nothing because nothing actually happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 28 minutes ago, Lautrec said: So when major stuff happens it's just for spectacle, but when it's subverted it's dumb? When it is written poorly it's dumb. Thorne delayed his attack on Davos' group for no logical reason other than to allow Edd and Wun Wun to arrive with perfect timing, then little happened. Stringing along the Shireen reveal for the entire season required Davos to be OOC for most of the season, then the result was a letdown. The Standoff at the Sept was the culmination of an Idiot Plot - it required Tommen to be dumb in order for it to work, and required Jaime, Cersei, Olenna, and Kevan not to notice what was happening. Jon's resurrection should have been one of the most symbolically meaningful events in the series, but it ended up being totally empty of meaning and everyone has already forgotten completely about it. And yet they teased this stuff in the trailers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said: It confirmed she was plating the game with the Faith. It got Olenna out of Kings Landing. It paid off in a great moment when she dropped the act to try to save everyone. Nowadays that counts as payoff? Oh, the times we are living in... 24 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said: Anticlimactic fake-outs seem to have been a major theme for the season. Loyalists vs mutineers at the Wall. Jon's resurrection. The Standoff at the Sept. Frankengregor. "I choose violence". The Shireen reveal to Davos-Mel's fate. I suppose they thought they were being clever. No, they are just lazy. Instead of actually coming up with their own stories they squeezed every tidbit of George's material into this season, regardless how distorted or stupid it was in the context they put it in. That was just nonsense. The only original material they have is stupid Sam-Gilly-Tyrion-eunuch-translator-couple-jokes and stuff involving Pod and Bronn. Just as Xaro was giving the 'I'm a selfmade guy' hundreds of times in season 2 they just had Jonathan Pryce give us the same sermons for two seasons. I honestly thought the one about him telling us about his party would literally never end. They fucked even that one up, now that I think of it. How the hell did such a guy ever find time to learn the stuff he clearly knows as this religious leader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FC_Lymond Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 The problems started back in Season 4, when they dragged out Tyrion sitting in jail so that Oberyn v Mountain would be the climax of the season (episode 9). Joffrey died very early in the season, and the trial was dragged out. It was essentially pointless anyway. Tyrion could have arrived in Essos (without Varys) a few episodes earlier, met Illyrio, and met Aegon. He could have gotten to Dany before she left, and we would have had a few episodes on the boat with Aegon. Aegon's plot is Vary's brainchild. Without it, his character is kinda empty. Without the Golden Company drawing support from the Stormlands and Crownlands there is no urgency in KL. They just sit around like in Season 6. And I also see Aegon driving the Lannisters west to Casterly Rock where they will hole up for a final stand. The show seems to be heading towards never showing it. Which is something no one would have predicted when it started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Nowadays that counts as payoff? Oh, the times we are living in... We are not waiting for it for more than 5 years and it was a great moment in a stellar opening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Nowadays that counts as payoff? Oh, the times we are living in... Better payoff than Joffrey being responsible for the assassination attempt on Bran, Doran's stupid plan literally going down in flames, Aeron ending up exactly where the books said he would , etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMario Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said: Better payoff than Joffrey being responsible for the assassination attempt on Bran, Doran's stupid plan literally going down in flames, Aeron Hide contents ending up exactly where the books said he would , etc. It was never outright stated Joffrey was responsible for the attempt on Bran. Just implied based on text. And Doran's plan is still on-going. Unlike show characters, there are people in the books who are playing a long game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 minute ago, SuperMario said: It was never outright stated Joffrey was responsible for the attempt on Bran. Just implied based on text. And Doran's plan is still on-going. Unlike show characters, there are people in the books who are playing a long game. It was all but confirmed that Joffrey did it even if it wasn't spelled out in detail, and Doran's so-called plan to ally with Dany died with Quentyn. If that's the kind of satisfying payoffs we're gonna get in WOW then GRRM can keep it tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 14 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said: Doran's so-called plan to ally with Dany died with Quentyn. ? This isn't the end of Doran, it's obviously a precursor to events in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 46 minutes ago, The Drunkard said: ? This isn't the end of Doran, it's obviously a precursor to events in the future. It's the end of his hopes to marry Quentyn to Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Matt Dayne Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 8 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The cuts they made in the show has ruined both the middle part as well as the endgame. Things are black and white now while the Aegon-Dany fight and the things happening between them would have been a fight between two more or less decent and well-meaning people. And a lot of stories would have changed and affected by those events. Now Cersei and Euron are just going to become evil obstacles that will be quickly dealt with. That is boring and predictable as hell. In the books we don't know what's going to happen to Aegon. Will he die? Will his true parentage be revealed? What's going to happen if it is? How will the people around him like Jon Connington or Arianne Martell react to that? For all you know Euron could decimate a fair part of Dany's army in the show before she even lands, so it's silly to say things have become predictable. You and I and everyone else simply have no clue about how things are going to converge into the endgame, and I think that sticks in the craw hard for some people for some bizarre reason, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 27 minutes ago, Ser Matt Dayne said: For all you know Euron could decimate a fair part of Dany's army in the show before she even lands, so it's silly to say things have become predictable. You and I and everyone else simply have no clue about how things are going to converge into the endgame, and I think that sticks in the craw hard for some people for some bizarre reason, No, we do know. I predict how season 7 is going to unfold here and now: 1. There will be some obstacles for Jon involving Littlefinger/Sansa but they will be dealt with. Perhaps Littlefinger is going to betray everybody again and get some Lannister men in the North to fight against Jon. Bran will arrive and reveal the truth about Jon Snow's parentage and the Others. Instead of making a bid for the throne himself he'll go south to cut a deal with Daenerys, asking her for help in the coming struggles. They will fall in love and eventually marry, perhaps even at the very end of the next season. Perhaps Sandor or Bran are going to reveal what Littlefinger actually did, resulting in his death. 2. Cersei will ally herself with/marry Euron, causing Jaime to get really jealous and pissed. She'll consolidate her power in the South because the plot says she does, and Dany might suffer some sort of defeat/losses during the naval battle between her armada and Euron's Ironborn. Some people of hers (possibly Missandei/Greyworm, possibly Theon/Asha) will end up in Oldtown and learn whatever Sam learns in the Citadel. 3. The KL plot will be a huge waste of time as usually it is. In the sixth episode Dany will finally have reached KL (perhaps she is at first freeing a bunch of slaves in Volantis and the other Free Cities to kill time). Cersei and Euron's forces will be defeated, Jaime is going to kill Cersei, and Tyrion is convincing Dany to pardon his brother (who can then die in the fight against the Others). 4. The Others are preparing things beyond the Wall and are going to bring it down at the end of next season, possibly a little bit earlier (although that's not all that likely). The last six episode will then just cover the war against the Others, culminating in episode 5, with the final episode tying things up. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMario Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Lyin' Ned said: It was all but confirmed that Joffrey did it even if it wasn't spelled out in detail, and Doran's so-called plan to ally with Dany died with Quentyn. If that's the kind of satisfying payoffs we're gonna get in WOW then GRRM can keep it tbh. There is a difference between abandoning a plot and not outright explaining every aspect of a storyline. Not explaining who attempted the assassination on Bran did not affect Bran or Joffrey's storylines. It also got Cat more involved as she ended up going to King's Landing and later kidnapping Tyrion, which got a lot of pieces moving. Just because the characters in the story did not know who outright attempted to kill Bran does not mitigate that storyline. I do agree with you that Quentyn's storyline was lackluster and ultimately amounted to nothing, but that was not all of Doran's plan. Again, he is playing a long game. But you can't compare not explaining who attempted to assassinate Bran to Gendry and his endless rowing or The Iron Bank of Braavos fizzling out. There are others as well, but I don't want to argue about it anymore as we are off topic from the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lautrec Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 2 hours ago, SuperMario said: No, Olenna leaving was a side effect of the plan due to her unknowingly attempting to interfere with said plan. I highly doubt Marge's plan involved getting Olenna to meet up with four Dornish bastards and join two kingdoms together that have traditionally hated each other. The plan itself was nothing because nothing actually happened. You talked about drawing the rose. The whole purpose of that was to get Olenna out and to let her know that Marge hasn't abandoned her. As for the rest of the plan, it was to get Loras and her into High Sparrow's good graces, which meant that she lived and if Cersei hadn't foiled the plan and was tried and charged Tommen and Marge would've lived quite happily. I really don't see how Marge not succeeding is anti-climactic, if anything it allowed for an even bigger climax to occur, i.e. Cersei blowing up the Sept of Baelor. 2 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said: When it is written poorly it's dumb. Thorne delayed his attack on Davos' group for no logical reason other than to allow Edd and Wun Wun to arrive with perfect timing, then little happened. Stringing along the Shireen reveal for the entire season required Davos to be OOC for most of the season, then the result was a letdown. The Standoff at the Sept was the culmination of an Idiot Plot - it required Tommen to be dumb in order for it to work, and required Jaime, Cersei, Olenna, and Kevan not to notice what was happening. Jon's resurrection should have been one of the most symbolically meaningful events in the series, but it ended up being totally empty of meaning and everyone has already forgotten completely about it. And yet they teased this stuff in the trailers. Thorne delayed his attack because he didn't want more people to die, he offered Davos and the others time to surrender. Edd and Wun Wun and Tormund arriving just in time is for dramatic effect, you know, like countless book examples (Stannis, Tywin, etc.). Davos didn't act out of character, he asked Melisandre what happened to Shireen in S05E10. He knew she died, and simply assumed she was killed by the Boltons, a logical assumption to make, especially when he asks about Stannis the same way and Melisandre's response is the same. He had no reason to think she lied. What mattered for conflict was for him to discover how she died, and that was handled well. Jon having Mel executed would be bad (because she brought him back to life and it was Stannis who ordered Shireen's death, you don't charge the executioner but the one who ordered it and Stannis died), but I'm sure you'd complain about any outcome. I don't know what you mean when you say the Sept stuff required Tommen to be dumb, and for the others to not notice what was happening, so I can't respond. As for Jon, that is just your interpretation, one many disagree with. In the last episode Mel mentions bringing him back, so how exactly have people forgotten about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombies That Were Promised Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 5 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said: It got Olenna out of Kings Landing. As much as I love Olenna, that was pure fan service. She is one of the last patriarch/matriarch types on the show, she is literally female Tywin, it was her time to be brutally slaughtered in the Game of Thrones... Which brings me to Game of Thrones. You have LF schemes, that kinda half make sense, and the other main player of GAME OF THRONES - Varys- currently makes 0 sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 36 minutes ago, Zombies That Were Promised said: As much as I love Olenna, that was pure fan service. She is one of the last patriarch/matriarch types on the show, she is literally female Tywin, it was her time to be brutally slaughtered in the Game of Thrones... Which brings me to Game of Thrones. You have LF schemes, that kinda half make sense, and the other main player of GAME OF THRONES - Varys- currently makes 0 sense. So fan service is becoming the latest buzz word I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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