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Aegon's absence is really noticeable now


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Before I go into the topic I want to say while I hate many of the changes D&D have made cutting Aegon is one I totally get seeing as he was introduced so late in the game. Now having said that yeah his absence is really noticeable now, the plot has become way too narrow and predictable right now with half the kingdom with Dany and the other half with Jon and the evil queen right in the middle. Aegon was one of those wildcards that made the plot a bit more unpredictable and added a third element to everything that is now gone. Also the plot has become way too pro-Dany with Donre, the Reach, Tyrion, Varys, Dothraki, Second sons, and the Unsullied all on her side. Aegon with Varys, Golden Company, Dorne and possible the Stormlands with him gave Dany a struggle to overcome but now? She is gonna take KL with ease and probably after team up with Jon.

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Same here. Even though i know people, have mixed feelings on him i believe that hes going to prove quite important in a series of PoVs such as Cersei, JonCon, Dany, Arriane etc.

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The cuts they made in the show has ruined both the middle part as well as the endgame. Things are black and white now while the Aegon-Dany fight and the things happening between them would have been a fight between two more or less decent and well-meaning people.

And a lot of stories would have changed and affected by those events. Now Cersei and Euron are just going to become evil obstacles that will be quickly dealt with. That is boring and predictable as hell.

In the books we don't know what's going to happen to Aegon. Will he die? Will his true parentage be revealed? What's going to happen if it is? How will the people around him like Jon Connington or Arianne Martell react to that?

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I agree.

Cutting Aegon was a mistake. It left a huge hole in the overall story.

Varys was ruined. All he did in Season 1 (The plot against Dany's life and the meeting with Illyrio in the dungeons) become nonsensical. Why he latter reveal he is a Targaryen supporter if he told Daenerys was pregnant and organized the life attempt against her? Now, he is just a boring character with no ulterior motivations and have a anachronistic agenda "for the realm".

Cutting him also affected Dorne. Without him, there is no reason for include Dorne, but inexplicably the showrunners did it and that sucked!

Aegon plot would be interesting, it would a huge plot twist that would add something interesting in the boring first half of season 5 and could add more layers in the now predictable season 7. We would have the mystery if he is a true Targaryen. We would have Jon Connington and Jorah would have his story arc. The name of Rhaegar would be more present in the series.  

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5 minutes ago, Arrow of the Morning said:

I agree.

Cutting Aegon was a mistake. It left a huge hole in the overall story.

Varys was ruined. All he did in Season 1 (The plot against Dany's life and the meeting with Illyrio in the dungeons) become nonsensical. Why he latter reveal he is a Targaryen supporter if he told Daenerys was pregnant and organized the life attempt against her? Now, he is just a boring character with no ulterior motivations and have a anachronistic agenda "for the realm".

Cutting him also affected Dorne. Without him, there is no reason for include Dorne, but inexplicably the showrunners did it and that sucked!

Aegon plot would be interesting, it would a huge plot twist that would add something interesting in the boring first half of season 5 and could add more layers in the now predictable season 7. We would have the mystery if he is a true Targaryen. We would have Jon Connington and Jorah would have his story arc. The name of Rhaegar would be more present in the series.  

I have literally no idea how you could fit it in, or make it interesting to your average viewer. Its just an added complication, I don't think anyone would want to watch it except a few book readers.

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14 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I have literally no idea how you could fit it in, or make it interesting to your average viewer. Its just an added complication, I don't think anyone would want to watch it except a few book readers.

It could have worked easily enough. They could have had Aegon show up with Connington and the Golden Company  in Dorne and start their war in that season. Instead we got a lot of stupid Tommen/Margaery and High Sparrow scenes.

It is not just Dorne and Varys/Illyrio that sucked after that. The entire KL plot for the last two seasons (especially the Faith) is now nothing but a huge waste of time. Nothing illustrated that more than the show tying a lot of plotlines up with a bomb. That is not going to defeat the sparrow movement in a realistic setting. Cersei opened the box in AFfC and now the Faith Militant has been restored. Blowing up the Great Sept isn't going to change that. But in the show that plot is now over.

In the books the Faith will play a crucial role in the whole Aegon plot, heralding him as the savior of the world and stuff (because the sparrows are commoners who look for a savior).

Cersei is also never going to ascend the Iron Throne in the books. The only thing that is from the books in the show is the coming alliance/marriage between Cersei and Euron.

We also see the showrunners not knowing what they are doing by keeping greyscale in the show and have Jorah get infected. What was the point of that?

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It could have worked easily enough. They could have had Aegon show up with Connington and the Golden Company  in Dorne and start their war in that season. Instead we got a lot of stupid Tommen/Margaery and High Sparrow scenes.

It is not just Dorne and Varys/Illyrio that sucked after that. The entire KL plot for the last two seasons (especially the Faith) is now nothing but a huge waste of time. Nothing illustrated that more than the show tying a lot of plotlines up with a bomb. That is not going to defeat the sparrow movement in a realistic setting. Cersei opened the box in AFfC and now the Faith Militant has been restored. Blowing up the Great Sept isn't going to change that. But in the show that plot is now over.

In the books the Faith will play a crucial role in the whole Aegon plot, heralding him as the savior of the world and stuff (because the sparrows are commoners who look for a savior).

Cersei is also never going to ascend the Iron Throne in the books. The only thing that is from the books in the show is the coming alliance/marriage between Cersei and Euron.

We also see the showrunners not knowing what they are doing by keeping greyscale in the show and have Jorah get infected. What was the point of that?

Because Greyscale is a critical plot element in the lead up to the end game in the books. It is going to devastate the South, and lead to something dramatic and crucial in the resolution of the story. Perhaps create millions of dead that can be quickly raised as wights by the Others?

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It could have worked easily enough. They could have had Aegon show up with Connington and the Golden Company  in Dorne and start their war in that season. Instead we got a lot of stupid Tommen/Margaery and High Sparrow scenes.

It is not just Dorne and Varys/Illyrio that sucked after that. The entire KL plot for the last two seasons (especially the Faith) is now nothing but a huge waste of time. Nothing illustrated that more than the show tying a lot of plotlines up with a bomb. That is not going to defeat the sparrow movement in a realistic setting. Cersei opened the box in AFfC and now the Faith Militant has been restored. Blowing up the Great Sept isn't going to change that. But in the show that plot is now over.

In the books the Faith will play a crucial role in the whole Aegon plot, heralding him as the savior of the world and stuff (because the sparrows are commoners who look for a savior).

Cersei is also never going to ascend the Iron Throne in the books. The only thing that is from the books in the show is the coming alliance/marriage between Cersei and Euron.

We also see the showrunners not knowing what they are doing by keeping greyscale in the show and have Jorah get infected. What was the point of that?

I think you are getting a little confused and are unable to separate book and show, looking at the show on its own the plot in KL works completely fine. We are now at a point where Cercei has gone totally mad queen, Jamie is looking at her in terror, her children are dead, the Faith plot is basically over, the Tyrells have joined in the fight with Dorne and Dany. They have quite cleverly moved the pieces around and made it work, all without using the extraneous plot device of Aegon. 

Whether things happen in the book or not is pretty much irrelevant to the show now, as has been said, the basic plot points will be hit, but things are different. 

 

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1 minute ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think you are getting a little confused and are unable to separate book and show, looking at the show on its own the plot in KL works completely fine. We are now at a point where Cercei has gone totally mad queen, Jamie is looking at her in terror, her children are dead, the Faith plot is basically over, the Tyrells have joined in the fight with Dorne and Dany. They have quite cleverly moved the pieces around and made it work, all without using the extraneous plot device of Aegon. 

Whether things happen in the book or not is pretty much irrelevant to the show now, as has been said, the basic plot points will be hit, but things are different. 

 

But Dany is totally overpowered, with the Tyrells, Dorne, Ironborn, Unsullied, Meereneese, Dothraki AND 3 dragons on her side.

All against the Lannisters?

Then again, D&D have always played fast and loose with numbers, scale, distances and so forth. A badass stare from Cersei as she sits on the Iron Throne probably equates to 100,000 troops in their weird Show universe.

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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

But Dany is totally overpowered, with the Tyrells, Dorne, Ironborn, Unsullied, Meereneese, Dothraki AND 3 dragons on her side.

All against the Lannisters?

Then again, D&D have always played fast and loose with numbers, scale, distances and so forth. A badass stare from Cersei as she sits on the Iron Throne probably equates to 100,000 troops in their weird Show universe.

So what? We don't know what will happen yet or who she's even going to be fighting. 

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52 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I have literally no idea how you could fit it in, or make it interesting to your average viewer. Its just an added complication, I don't think anyone would want to watch it except a few book readers.

I wonder how your parameter to determine what would not be interesting or not for the audience. The show added some twists like it before (Drogo declaring he would attack Westeros, Renly and his big army against the impaired King's Landing) and the audience was engaged. Aegon plot could develop slowly, but he would land in Westeros and fight the Lannisters just in time (and spare us from the sluggish KL plot in S6), we also would gain a better Dornish plot that includes Arianne. Just a little effort and they could give us a much better plot we had in the last two seasons.

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2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Because Greyscale is a critical plot element in the lead up to the end game in the books. It is going to devastate the South, and lead to something dramatic and crucial in the resolution of the story. Perhaps create millions of dead that can be quickly raised as wights by the Others?

And that is now happening in the show? With Jorah being in Essos? In a show that has only thirteen episodes left? I don't think so.

Keep in mind that Shireen is at the Wall in the books and Val believes her sickness will return. I guess that is going to happen and then we'll have the grey plague both in the North and the South.

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think you are getting a little confused and are unable to separate book and show, looking at the show on its own the plot in KL works completely fine.

No, it does not. This entire season was a huge waste of time. Nothing happened in KL until the final episode. Cersei could have killed everybody in the first or second episode already. And of course nothing came of the sparrow movement in the show. Now there is all about Evil Cersei the Godmother. That has nothing to do with the plot in the books.

And this begun in season 5 with this whole Tommen is in charge and doing nothing plot. We have Ramsay murdering Roose with impunity in season 6, so why the hell didn't Olenna or Kevan not just ignore Tommen and save Loras, Margaery, and Cersei? Just stupid plot convenience.

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

We are now at a point where Cercei has gone totally mad queen, Jamie is looking at her in terror, her children are dead, the Faith plot is basically over, the Tyrells have joined in the fight with Dorne and Dany. They have quite cleverly moved the pieces around and made it work, all without using the extraneous plot device of Aegon. 

Nope, because in the books Olenna and Dorne will never join Dany. The Martells will oppose Dany because of the whole Quentyn thing. Cersei is in the show just a stupid plot device. The Evil Queen Dany is going to defeat (and Jaime is going to kill).

12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But Dany is totally overpowered, with the Tyrells, Dorne, Ironborn, Unsullied, Meereneese, Dothraki AND 3 dragons on her side.

All against the Lannisters?

Then again, D&D have always played fast and loose with numbers, scale, distances and so forth. A badass stare from Cersei as she sits on the Iron Throne probably equates to 100,000 troops in their weird Show universe.

Cersei will fight against everyone and she will have the numbers to do so if the show wants her to have them. And once she joins Euron they will have 1,000 war ships, more than enough to challenge Dany's armada. Although I don't think show Euron is prepared to deal with the dragons. Neither will book Euron, by the way, considering that he no longer has his magical horn.

But who cares, Cersei will only be around for next season anyway. But the idea that she has just taken the throne to lose it again before Dany comes or doesn't pose a challenge is ridiculous. They set her up as the Evil Queen to be a threat, not a joke. I could even see Cersei wreak some havoc in the North if Littlefinger calls her troops to his aid. The idea of him selling her the idea that the Vale betrayed him and made Jon Snow king could easily convince Cersei in the show setting. Not to mention that the Lannisters have the largest army in the show setting, too.

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11 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Now having said that yeah his absence is really noticeable now,

It's the just the opposite for me. Aegon feels really extraneous to the story now.

Remember in GRRM's original outline how Jaime murders everyone and ends up on the Iron Throne. It looks like GRRM has moved that role to Cersei and we will pretty soon have this happening in the books as well. Probably in TWoW, before Dany gets there.

After this episode, it's becoming clear that the younger, more beautiful queen that takes down Cersei is going to be Dany and the show has clearly set that up.

fAegon feels so pointless to the whole story.

Dany is overpowered against Cersei and maybe that's a good thing. It's time to kick the Lannisters off KL. They have been sitting there since book one. But as Dany moves North it's not going to be so easy and I think that's where the show is going with their remaining 13 episodes/

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One of Aegon's purposes as it currently stands is to solve a world-building consistency problem, namely what is going on with Stormlands and Baratheon's direct vassals and holdings. The show, by cutting out Aegon, leaves a big gap in its political world. With all Baratheons and Tyrells gone, one will wonder why Baratheon's vassals and holdings, esp. Renly and Stannis supporters, would fall in line with the Lannisters. 

The Books have Tyrell taken up most of the Stormland san Storm's End, and now Aegon is invading it. This storyline with unfold when the Tyrells, Martells and Aegon meet up there.

 The show, on the other hand, decides to kill off the Tyrells and Baratheons in one stroke, so we don't know what is going on. Why would the local lords heed to the Lannisters when their liege lords are murdered is anybody's guess. 

The writers clearly has no idea what to do with the South.

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18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But Dany is totally overpowered, with the Tyrells, Dorne, Ironborn, Unsullied, Meereneese, Dothraki AND 3 dragons on her side.

All against the Lannisters?

Then again, D&D have always played fast and loose with numbers, scale, distances and so forth. A badass stare from Cersei as she sits on the Iron Throne probably equates to 100,000 troops in their weird Show universe.

In the books she'll have something similar.  If she ever makes it to Westeros.

Everything is pointing to Victarion having her fleet, and therefore she has the Ironborn.  She'll unite the Dothraki in the books too.  So she'll have them.  She has the Unsullied.

Dorne & Tyrell are the interesting one.  Dorne will initially side with Aegon.  But I don't Tyrell will.  I can see them fighting Aegon and that decimates both armies considerably.

Which really is the whole point of all these wars.  To weaken Westeros strength in face of the Others.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And that is now happening in the show? With Jorah being in Essos? In a show that has only thirteen episodes left? I don't think so.

Keep in mind that Shireen is at the Wall in the books and Val believes her sickness will return. I guess that is going to happen and then we'll have the grey plague both in the North and the South.

No, it does not. This entire season was a huge waste of time. Nothing happened in KL until the final episode. Cersei could have killed everybody in the first or second episode already. And of course nothing came of the sparrow movement in the show. Now there is all about Evil Cersei the Godmother. That has nothing to do with the plot in the books.

And this begun in season 5 with this whole Tommen is in charge and doing nothing plot. We have Ramsay murdering Roose with impunity in season 6, so why the hell didn't Olenna or Kevan not just ignore Tommen and save Loras, Margaery, and Cersei? Just stupid plot convenience.

Nope, because in the books Olenna and Dorne will never join Dany. The Martells will oppose Dany because of the whole Quentyn thing. Cersei is in the show just a stupid plot device. The Evil Queen Dany is going to defeat (and Jaime is going to kill).

Cersei will fight against everyone and she will have the numbers to do so if the show wants her to have them. And once she joins Euron they will have 1,000 war ships, more than enough to challenge Dany's armada. Although I don't think show Euron is prepared to deal with the dragons. Neither will book Euron, by the way, considering that he no longer has his magical horn.

But who cares, Cersei will only be around for next season anyway. But the idea that she has just taken the throne to lose it again before Dany comes or doesn't pose a challenge is ridiculous. They set her up as the Evil Queen to be a threat, not a joke. I could even see Cersei wreak some havoc in the North if Littlefinger calls her troops to his aid. The idea of him selling her the idea that the Vale betrayed him and made Jon Snow king could easily convince Cersei in the show setting. Not to mention that the Lannisters have the largest army in the show setting, too.

But as you yourself stated, Shirreen is toast. Her greyscale will be burned along with the rest of her.

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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

But as you yourself stated, Shirreen is toast. Her greyscale will be burned along with the rest of her.

She is still alive, no? So she still can spread greyscale as long as she lives. And while Stannis is officially dead she should be the most closely guarded and securest person at the Wall - because she will literally be the only person keeping Stannis' cause alive. No one at the Wall - especially not Selyse or Melisandre - would have any reason to kill her soon. Not even Marsh and his cabal because they could use both Selyse and Shireen as hostages against Stannis (if he is still alive) or as bargaining chips when dealing with the Boltons and King Tommen. And if anybody needed a sacrifice there are lots of people that would have to die first before anyone would look at Shireen - Mance's son (in truth Gilly's but nobody knows that at the Wall), Gerrick Kingsblood and his daughters, and perhaps even Jeyne Poole.

There is a lot of stuff involving Shireen that will have come to the fore before she dies - the Patchface mystery and the greyscale most of all.

The idea that Shireen is conveniently killed before she can spread her disease would be a huge letdown - especially since we just learned that greyscale apparently can resurface in children beyond the Wall. What was the point in telling us that if it is not going to happen to Shireen? There are no other children with dormant greyscale in the books, and Jon Connington is already infectious. If nothing came of that it would be a completely pointless piece of information. And we don't get pointless pieces of information in those books.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She is still alive, no? So she still can spread greyscale as long as she lives. And while Stannis is officially dead she should be the most closely guarded and securest person at the Wall - because she will literally be the only person keeping Stannis' cause alive. No one at the Wall - especially not Selyse or Melisandre - would have any reason to kill her soon. Not even Marsh and his cabal because they could use both Selyse and Shireen as hostages against Stannis (if he is still alive) or as bargaining chips when dealing with the Boltons and King Tommen. And if anybody needed a sacrifice there are lots of people that would have to die first before anyone would look at Shireen - Mance's son (in truth Gilly's but nobody knows that at the Wall), Gerrick Kingsblood and his daughters, and perhaps even Jeyne Poole.

There is a lot of stuff involving Shireen that will have come to the fore before she dies - the Patchface mystery and the greyscale most of all.

The idea that Shireen is conveniently killed before she can spread her disease would be a huge letdown - especially since we just learned that greyscale apparently can resurface in children beyond the Wall. What was the point in telling us that if it is not going to happen to Shireen? There are no other children with dormant greyscale in the books, and Jon Connington is already infectious. If nothing came of that it would be a completely pointless piece of information. And we don't get pointless pieces of information in those books.

The point is that since Martin is an equal opportunity tormentor, a mass die-off is needed in the South to bring their level of tribulation to an equivalent level to that faced in the North. In the North we have Winter with snowfalls 40 feet deep, and the Others on their doorstep. In the South we need something like a massive plague to balance out the scales.

Regarding the reason for Shireen's greyscale, it could be something as simple as this affliction giving the wildlings - who are the dominant force at the Wall - a reason not to intervene when she gets burned. Because they think she is an abomination anyway.

 

 

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Well I've gone from originally wanting fAegon in the show to being glad he's not to be honest. I really enjoy the books but the show has done well to remove some of the filler and I'm now thinking Cersei/Euron Vs Dany is better for the show than fAegon also being in the mix.

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